Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Fencing setback requirements along Fauntleroy?
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August 26, 2009 at 10:48 pm #592068
kfischerMemberMy family and I just moved in from out of state, bought a home on Fauntleroy Way across from Lincoln Park. We have two very young boys and are concerned about the heavy/park traffic in front of our house. So we hired a fencing company to install a 4′ high fence to run the length of the property along the sidewalk at the edge of our front yard.
The workers arrived and put in the posts today, only to have a city inspector happen by. The inspector stopped the work and wrote us a citation, saying that our fence was being installed on city land without a permit. He said the city “owns” a 5′-deep slice of my front yard — from the edge of the sidewalk in 5 feet. In order to put a fence there, he said (rather rudely, according to my wife) that we’d have to apply for a permit from the city (cost $300) and (if approved) then make an annual payment to the city for use of the land.
The inspector added that this would be wasted effort on our part because “the city is never going to give up that much land,” referring to the 5′-deep easement/right-of-way into my yard from the sidewalk.
FWIW, I’ve researched the city’s residential building codes and I can find nothing governing fences (other than those taller than 6′ require a permit) and this alleged sidewalk easement/right-of-way/set back thing per the inspector.
Lots of my new neighbors have fences and/or hedges in front of their homes, but this random inspector says we can’t? I’m confused. Is there a 5-foot easement/right-of-way from city sidewalks in Seattle?
August 26, 2009 at 10:59 pm #675671
lonelycrowMemberYou better start looking for an attorney who specializes in zoneing laws.
August 26, 2009 at 11:54 pm #675672
MargLMemberI’d be curious about the answer to this question, too.
There’s a home-based daycare center being run at the corner of Roxbury and 30th AVE SW. They’re currently replacing their chain-link fence with a tall solid cedar fence right along the sidewalk. Noticed when sitting at the red light waiting to make a right turn east on Roxbury the fence really obstructs your view of the road to the west. That’s the only reason I could think of for a such a large easement – potential visibility problems on corner lots.
August 27, 2009 at 12:06 am #675673
BofusMemberkfischer-
First, welcome to West Seattle.
Your first step is to determine the location of your property line. It may very well be five feet from the back of walk in which case a permit to encroach into the right of way with your fence would be required. Since you now have a citation it is best to know exactly where that property line is before you proceed further. I suggest that you hire a surveyor to locate the line. That way you’ll be certain of the location and can plan accordingly. Consult with the City’s planning department. They will give you the information that you need to pursue the permit if in fact you are within the right of way at the back of the sidewalk.
August 27, 2009 at 12:23 am #675674
BofusMemberMargL-
The limits of right of way are not always clearly defined by existing improvements such as sidewalks, curb lines, edge of pavement, etc. One can make an educated guess based on a dimensioned as-built drawing but to be certain it is best to have the line defined by survey.
In terms of of the replaced fence that you referred to in your post there very well may be a problem. Visibility standards are codefied that limit improvements within clear vision triangles at intersections and driveways. Fences, signs, trees, etc are restricted from these areas so that a clear line of site is not impeded. The visibility standard is applied to both private property as well as rights of way.
August 27, 2009 at 12:25 am #675675
KenParticipant20 ft (or more) measured from the center of the road is part of nearly all street systems on the planet. Every paved street in seattle and some of the paved alleys are measured from the center to whatever the right of way is. On narrow streets this extends far back from the sidewalk. On wide multilane streets it could be right at the sidewalk but it is your responsibility to determine where it is before you build or erect a fence.
Go out to your front yard. Look left, look right.
You see where all those fences are?
That is how far back you have to put a fence from the street.
http://www.kingcounty.gov/operations/gis/Maps/iMAP.aspx
Look up your house. Note the size of the lot. It is measured in front up to the line that is the City of Seattle right-of way. The setback of the houses on your street are all measured from the right of way line, usually a min of 20 ft. The swale, parking/planting strip and right of way are not your property even though you are expected to mow it, water the trees and plants and are responsible for keeping the snow off of it in winter.
Welcome to city living. The same kind of measurements are used on streets and highways in rural areas but most people never run into the issue.
Your fencing contractor knew damn well where the right of way began and if you had a correctly worded contract, they will be moving the fence post to the correct location. Unless you tried to bully the usually non english speaking laborers…. Then you are responsible.
August 27, 2009 at 12:25 am #675676
jschuMemberHave you heard of “invisible fence”? I installed it without a permit. you can bury the line. I’d do that before hiring a surveyor- to bad the fencing company didn’t tell you. if they work in west seattle they know the rules.
August 27, 2009 at 12:38 am #675677
kfischerMemberBofus — thanks for the reply, and the welcome.
My wife managed to get a permitting specialist on the phone, who explained our problem similarly to your note. They too suggested we hire a surveyor. When i get off work, I’m going to check the survey that was done when we bought the house last month, altho the city specialist told my wife “that won’t be good enough” … apparently they’ll require us to hire somebody to do another survey regardless.
I’m left wondering about my neighbors, though. The home to our north has tall shrubs planted along the sidewalk for the same reason we wanted a fence — for the safety of her young kids. A house three doors down has a chain link fence that abuts the sidewalk. I’d be interested to know why those are allowed …
The citation we got today calls for fines of $1,000 a day if the offending material isn’t removed within 24 hours. Can we get a surveyor out there that soon? I dunno. But it seems a little harsh … I’m also more than a little surprised that the fencing company was apparently ignorant about this. One would assume they run into this issue frequently …
August 27, 2009 at 12:43 am #675678
kfischerMember@jschu: Invisible fencing for my 4-year-old??
@Ken — like I said, other neighbors have fences/shrubs right up to the sidewalk. Also, Fauntleroy Way is wide, so that 20′ rule wold seem to me to be pretty darn close to the edge of the walk. But like i said in my note to Bofus, I’m going to have a long looksee when I get home in about 25 minutes!
August 27, 2009 at 1:00 am #675679
jschuMemberooops – didn’t not read there was a kid. Pull the fence post out- it’s cheaper- wait for a permit.
August 27, 2009 at 2:11 am #675680
BofusMemberkfischer-
Great, sounds like you are on the right track. A few thoughts… I would talk to the city about the fine. Being proactive and making a good faith effort to resolve the matter will usually buy one more time. Was the survey a boundary and topographic survey? If so, you should be able to determine the lot line location based off of the existing improvements that are shown. Is the survey stamped by a professional land surveyor? If so, I would be surprised if the city wouldn’t accept it for this type of work. You’ll have to check the submittal requirements though to verify. The existing improvements that were installed on your neighbors’ property will only help your application. Following existing improvements, matching fence lines, etc are good arguments for an encroachment permit. Finally, check your contract with the fence company. My guess is that it includes a provison that states, at least in part, that the customer is responsible for determining the location of property lines and the final alignment of the fence. Good luck!
August 27, 2009 at 12:12 pm #675681
KenParticipantAlso note. If a survey was done in the past several years, the stakes are often still in the ground at the corners.
And if the survey was recorded at city hall, the inspector has no right to expect you to pay for another. That is a min of around 2k depending on location. The ground might move around here occasionally, but not that much.
Our local council rep Tom Rasmussen is on the committee that supervises SDOT and might be able to help you if you get in a fight with a bureaucrat.
August 27, 2009 at 4:45 pm #675682
swimcatMemberWouldn’t the easement/ROW be on the title report to this property? This just seems strange given the situation of your neighbors’ front yards…
I hope you get this resolved. Building a fence 5′ off of the sidewalk would not look very good.
August 27, 2009 at 5:05 pm #675683
HormelParticipantThe total right-of-way width on Fauntleroy is 80′ in this area. Measuring from the centerline, curb edge or sidewalk can be inaccurate since larger arterials such as this may not be centered in the ROW.
I would not go by the suggestion of locating by the neighbors fences, they to could be in the wrong place. Your best option may be to do what the inspector said, put the fence back 5′ so it is on your property and the inspector will probably waive the fine and red tag without requiring a survey. The cost and time to work through SDOT to put a fence in the ROW where you want it is really not worth it.
It is strange that the fencing contractor did not bring up the question, but providing or proving the correct location of the property line is ultimately the responsibility of the property owner. I would doubt that the inspector ‘happened by’ as it is possible one of your neighbors called you in, especially if the fence was being put right at the sidewalk edge.
You can look at the city zoning maps which give the dimensions of each parcel and the ROW widths on the DPD website. Your lot is likely on map 163 or 177. From there you should be able to find your property corners which are either marked with a tack on a solid object, a buried metal stake, or if there was a recent property bounds survey, a wooden stake or metal rebar with a yellow cap.
August 27, 2009 at 5:14 pm #675684
kfischerMemberAfter spending an hour at the city engineering office this morn (thanks Tim! You were awesome. The city needs good-hearted employees like you!) we discovered the ROW on that part of Fauntleroy is 2′. So the fencing crew is coming back out tomorrow to move the posts back about 20 inches. Sheesh.
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FWIW, i met the inspector, who came up the engineering office to meet with me. After he saw the trouble Tim and I were having locating the records (we had to pull several sets of the original engineering docs that were drawn in 1914) he said he was inclined to let the whole thing drop. But once we finally located the 2′ ROW on an old, frayed parchment, he advised us to just move the posts to avoid annual inspections, permits and any trouble down the road if the city ever were to undertake a sidewalk improvement project. And he will drop the citation and $1,000-a-day fine.
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So that’s what we’ll do, and I do take responsibility for not knowing about the ROW.
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Also, FWIW, he said he didn’t just “happen by” the project yesterday like I said in my original post. Apparently a neighbor reported us. Nice.
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This is off topic but — those old hand-drawn plat maps and engineering drawings are cool. sure computers have made the job of creating them easier, but there something to be said for the skill and craftsmanship that went into those big old hand-drawn plats…
August 27, 2009 at 5:24 pm #675685
mrhinehMemberGotta love neighbors who like to make a first impression by calling the city out on you. Welcome to Passive Agressive Seattle, where people can’t talk out their problems, they need blogs, walls of shame and inspectors to voice their concerns. Thankfully, there is a greater majority here that does step out and welcome newcomers.
Welcome and good luck with your project. The Seattle.gov site also has a link for monitoring your permit status if you need to.
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