War on Science

[miws]

Breezy, it could be very well by accident.

I’ve never intentionally blocked anyone, but maybe a year and a half ago, I accidentally blocked someone here, who is also a real life friend, apparently when I accidentally left-clicked, while the pointer was hovering around the “Ignore” link.

Couldn’t figure out why I wasn’t seeing her posts!

Mike

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[metrognome]

skeeter — thanks for that quote; it pretty much sums up my feelings about religion. I have trouble believing that such an intricate world created itself, even though I was raised by a scientist. Yet it seems equally or more unbelievable to solve that conundrum by creating a bigger one, namely that some almighty, all-knowing, all-powerful invisible supreme being that has existed forever and will continue to exist into eternity, decided he/she/it was lonely one day and created the world to amuse him/her/itself, even though my education was provided primarily by Holy Names nuns and Jesuit priests.

I just wish their god had been wise enough to invent smartphones when he created the world and taken a few selfies along the way …

miws — it was part of god’s mysterious plan …

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[Breezy]

Thanks, Mike! That is what very well could’ve happened – again, that whole drunken stupor thing ;)

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[JoB]

wake..

i knew it wasn’t me because breezy saw my post alerting her to check her settings…

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[JoB]

It’s easy to make scapegoats out of __________ .

But the real culprits here are major corporations and mega-church businesses that are wielding political power for financial gain.

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[Breezy]

JoB, I agree!

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[wakeflood]

Woah, HANG ON!

Well, at last we’ve figured this whole conundrum out thanks to a combination of recent posts here on WSB.

Apparently, g_d accidentally blocked himself when creating the universe thus preventing us from seeing his posts about his true intentions. Ergo, the whole “mystery of existence”.

He has already informed the rest of the universe (unblocked) that his true intention was to see how many crazy ass atoms (and names for same) beings would create from the base matter he provided. Yes, it was going to be part of his Master’s thesis – still unfinished btw after HOW many millenia??? – but that’s another issue. Seems g_d procrastinates too.

Another BTW – g_d apparently had a side bet that someone would have created Simon&Garfunklenium by now. Lost that one.

Can we close this damn thread now??? ;-)

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[JTB]

JoB and Wake,

Sorry Wake, at least one more hopefully relevant comment inspired by JoB’s experience with physicians.

What she relates about her experience with doctors treating her pain I think represent bad medicine. There is both and art and a science in clinical practice. And although “best practices” are based largely on statistical outcomes, we know that medical knowledge is dynamic and patients vary widely. In addition we know the “gold standard” of clinical research, double-blind, placebo controlled studies, while perhaps are the best we have, are still proven to produce results that ultimately don’t hold up over time. There is lots of discussion about this involving various biases at work.

I think what JoB describes represents a betrayal of science on the part of the physicians. In my experience in healthcare, truly good physicians will of course look to the standards and best practices that have evolved for treating particular problems, but when the encounter a resistant case they keep working at it. That may involve more research, referrals for second opinions, and ultimately trial and error. But what she describes is something I think is a product of the cost pressures on physicians and not good clinical practice or medical science.

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[skeeter]

You’re welcome Metrognome. I too spent 4 of my formative years learning with the Jesuits. I think they’ve done a marvelous job helping millions to grow in grace and wisdom.

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[JoB]

JTB..

I agree that what i describe is bad medicine

but that doesn’t stop it from being perpetrated using medical science as the justification

my point.. far from slandering local MDs..

is that science is always evolving.. and those in the forefront of that evolution are always dismissed ..

until overwhelming proof changes current viewpoints.

medicine isn’t so different from other scientifically based fields.

add into that equation the unfortunate fact that for medicine much of current medical science is funded by drug and/or medical supply companies with a vested interest in the outcome of the research and insurance companies that don’t want to pay for the management of chronic illness and the focus shifts too far from best practice.

i sat on a public task force evaluating pain medications a few years ago and learned a valuable lesson in the process.

when we looked for scientifically vetted research on pain medications we found that for the most part pain medications weren’t tested against one another.. they were tested against placebos..

so there was no way to scientifically evaluate the relative effectiveness of pain medications.

That doesn’t provide helpful information for practicing physicians.

as for whether my experiences with the health profession reflect current cost pressures on physicians..

i can only say that while the systems for delivering healthcare in the United States have changed considerably over the past 50 years, my experiences with physicians pretty much hasn’t.

sadly, my experience is the norm for female chronic pain patients with poorly understood medical conditions.

I wish i could say that better diagnosis had led to better treatment.. but for the most part, i can’t.

btw. it looks like my doc is about to be kicked from his practice because he continues to take time and spend resources trying to unravel treatable contributing factors in his chronic pain patients…

so it looks like i will be once again doctor shopping :(

if you know any you can recommend for severe chronic fatigue syndrome, severe fibromyalgia and multiple chemical sensitivity..

i would appreciate a recommendation.

there is nothing i hate more than looking for a new doctor.

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[wakeflood]

JoB! JTB! You guys have a great discussion point there. How modern medicine as practiced in the US impacts outcomes, patient experience, etc.

Care to start a fresh thread on that one?? Sounds like a great segue?? :-)

I’m sure you’d get some great inputs…

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[JTB]

Wake, how about something long the lines of a patient’s guide to obtaining satisfactory healthcare? That might involve everything from selecting a doctor to communicating with them about your management and dealing with health insurance companies. I have a medical background and often wonder how people without one can even begin to watch out for their own interests in this system. And I don’t mean to promote an adversarial stance; being clear and reasonable is usually very well-received by medical staff and a good way to to facilitate your own care.

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[wakeflood]

I’m chuckling to myself, JTB. That sounds perfectly cool and can’t wait to see what people throw at that topic…but I’m just another numbskull hanging about, pulling opinions out of thin air or my rear, alternately. :-) Any sense of “ownership” of this or any thread is merely an illusion based on some generic deference to the OP. (Or to put it more accurately, this is Tracy’s litterbox, we’re just leaving partially covered “gifts”.)

So, roll with what you feel and this space will show you the love, I’m sure. They seem to tolerate my shenanigans for some unknown reason.

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[JanS]

JTB…interesting point. I have sort of a medical background…I’m a massage therapist. I also listen closely with my physicians, and question them, and converse with them from a somewhat knowledgeable basis. As many on here know, I received a kidney transplant in June, 2013. It’s surprising how many docs have asked, as we talk, if I have a medical background. I do my research. I don’t just nod my head and accept whatever when a doc tells me something. There are people with my condition (autoimmune) that have no idea the ramifications of what they have. One has to be involved, and one has to find out as much as one can on one’s own about a condition. Luckily, I have great docs who spend time to explain things, too, and answer questions.I’m one of the lucky ones.

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[wakeflood]

See? I’m telling ya, this topic deserves a thread title with those first two posts asap! :-)

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[TanDL]

Well, here’s my two bits on Science and religion: Science isn’t a static artform. You can rely on science to tell the truth based on research and objective testing… until something new is discovered that totally upends what we knew to be the truth. Smoking was safe, Neanderthals were more like apes than human, animals have no intelligence, colds were caused by staying out too long in the rain, the earth was flat, atoms were the smallest particles in the universe, the theory of relativity was the ultimate truth in physics, the 1960s food pyramid was the way Americans should always eat, etc., etc., ad infinitum. There are hundreds, if not thousands of scientific discoveries that have upended solid scientific “truths” about our world and there are surely more to come. Religion is about belief.. and so to some degree is science. I try to look at both with a skeptical eye and thoughtful instinct. Sometimes I get it as wrong as both.

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[JoB]

JTB.. i am an internationally recognized patient expert in my illnesses… which is how i ended up on the Oregon State panel to evaluate the relative effectiveness of pain medications.

i am a reasonably matter of fact patient who can effectively communicate severity of symptoms and the relative effectiveness of past treatment…

and it still takes a new physician watching me manage life threatening conditions requiring emergency surgery by the time I insist on tests for them to realize that far from exaggerating my condition..

i tend to downplay my symptoms.

The assumptions that walk in the door with any professional can and often does undermine success.

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[seaopgal]

wakeflood, I think you are experiencing a little of what God must have experienced with her creation. You started this thread and for awhile you were able to guide the discussion, and it was pleasing in your eyes. But then it grew and changed, became more complex and diverse as more people joined in and took it in many different directions. Now, no matter how much you plead, admonish, and attempt to intervene, they just don’t listen ….

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[JTB]

JoB,

Wow, it’s obvious you have a tremendous amount to offer to a discussion about “patient doctor communication.” I think that might be a discussion to the benefit both parties. I also think communicating with insurance companies is worthwhile topic, but it might be better to keep that as a separate thread or else the discussion could go all over the place. In any case, I’ll start a new topic and see where it goes.

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[TanDL]

Hahaha… good one Seaopgal. I’ve been thinking lately that it’s funny how many us of tend to talk about God with a capital G, like there’s only one. That little concept right there could start (and probably has started) wars among the multifarious factions who think theirs is the only God. And who’s God is the right God anyhow?

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[JoB]

TanDL

are there many gods or only one with many faces ;->

i have pretty much settled on one.. but i am still not convinced that those who wrote the Bible got it right when they wrote God, the father…

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[TanDL]

Good question. I guess it’s all in what you choose to believe… what your heart and mind lead you to believe, or not.

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[JoB]

i probably shouldn’t joke like that..

i can just see all those people shaking their heads and saying they knew SHE couldn’t be a Christian…

but the truth is that the words that people take literally in the Bible were produced in the same kinds of political sessions that produce our current laws…

as are the many interpretations of single passages..

i am willing to buy that God spoke to those who wrote scripture..

but unwilling to buy that God didn’t also speak to women

or to anyone but Chrisitans

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[mark47n]

Wake, about 500 posts ago you asked me whetehr or not I’ve continued to examine my beliefs…or something like that. I have. I wrestle with both trying to understand myself and the universe around me. My approach to G-d is perhaps my talking to my subconscious (remember, no robed old guys for me!). Is it cognitive dissonance? Perhpas, but I just don’t think that I have to go one way or the other.

My point is that I’ve not stopped exploring. In sometimes literal terms.

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[VBD]

So given that so many Christians do not agree with literal Biblical teaching, why be a “Christian” at all?

Isn’t stating that you align your beliefs with a particular religion also imply that you accept its teachings? If not, what’s the point?

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