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January 2, 2014 at 8:53 pm #802309
wakefloodParticipantI don’t disagree with any of that and I feel strongly the same as you do. And at the risk of speaking on behalf of others here, I would suggest that’s a given by many here on this thread. :-)
Those that might disagree – and again, I’m at risk here – but from other discussions, I’ve noticed they would level similar charges against the “left leaning mainstream media”. :-)
January 2, 2014 at 9:32 pm #802310
JTBParticipantJoB,
What I mean by psychic energy is what exists within the conscious and unconscious mind. Different cultures have different explanations for what that entails, but several things are obvious. One is that the power (psychic energy) of the unconscious is strong enough to overwhelm the conscious mind. Another is that the unconscious material is organized at least to some extent. Some refer to “complexes” and another notion is that of archetypes. In any case, the same patterns seem to crop up in many societies, often somewhat modified to reflect the specific culture of the individual. The task of psychological integration is to become aware of some of this unconscious material and, by so doing, begin to make it available to consciousness, to expand awareness. Psychotherapy, dream work, meditation, etc. are all tools to facilitate that work. Those who attempt to repress impulses that arise from the unconscious rather than recognize and deal with them often become sad examples of how poorly that approach works.
Tapping another issue in this thread which I think relates both to the power of unconscious psychic energy and a scientific outlook, I’ve been following a number of discussions in some medical forums about the placebo effect. It’s actually very funny to see some physicians struggle with this concept. They’ve been trained to view a placebo as something that elicits a response through some sort of coincidence in highly suggestible individuals rather than as a postive indication of the power of the mind. In fact, some were dismissively saying ” it’s just in the mind.” But more and more, physicians are recognizing the importance of relaxation, visualization or meditation in helping their patients deal more effectively with challenging medical conditions.
January 2, 2014 at 10:04 pm #802311
VBDParticipantJTB, I like your explanation, and it makes a lot of sense. However, this is not the usual context that I encounter with the phrase “psychic energy”, and even in this usage, don’t care for it. In scientific terms, energy means something very specific, with the SI unit for energy being the joule. But I’ll let that slide for the sake of continuing the discussion.
As for the effects of belief, you hit the nail on the head. What most people consider to be divine intervention may often be the ability of their own thoughts to have physiological influences.
Rather than a supernatural imaginary friend intervening, people can heal themselves or change their outcomes through the use of their brain. Absolutely.
January 2, 2014 at 10:14 pm #802312
wakefloodParticipantVBD, I had the same reaction to the use of “psychic energy” that you did. And your further description and interpretation mirrors mine.
January 2, 2014 at 10:47 pm #802313
JTBParticipantVBD,
If you look into the studies to track brain activity in real time using various scanners such as PET, it is clear there is dynamic activity involving different regions in the brain when thinking takes place or even during sleep. Studies have involved meditation, problem-solving and other mental processes. For lack of anything more informed, I’ll just submit that the activity has to involve a neurochemical process. And that involves energy. Perhaps it’s not measurable in joules, but just because science doesn’t have the instrumentation sensitive enough to measure something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
And while I appreciate and agree with your last comment, I’ll point out that a common adage in one of the Hindu traditions is “God lives within you as you.” When Jung talks about the personality being reordered through assimilating psychic energy from the unconscious and the ego is no longer the center, he sounds much like a mystic describing the Self. At Easter time, on FB I usually post the flyer for the wonderful movie The Ruling Class. It has Peter O’Toole’s response to the question, “How do you know you’re God?”: “Simple, whenever I pray to Him I find I’m talking to myself.” Hopefully, that helps people look in the right direction.
January 2, 2014 at 11:10 pm #802314
VBDParticipantJTB, you’re certainly right, our brains do use energy, and the electrical signals can be measured and quantified. My caution was in separating the specific scientific definition from the pseudo-scientific one.
Several scientific terms are often used in an attempt at making pseudo-scientific nonsense sound credible. Some common offenders are “energy”, “power”, “magnetism”, “frequency”, “vibrations”, and “radiation”.
I’m not accusing you of specifically using the term in a misleading way, or spewing nonsense. On the contrary, I agree with you core premise. But your usage could be considered “non-standard”.
January 2, 2014 at 11:19 pm #802315
seaopgalParticipant“How do you KNOW you’re God?” (Resisting urge to note that Peter O’Toole is one of the 3 best things to come out of the Republic of Ireland … )
I love that this has become the thread that won’t die. I don’t have anything of substance to add other than to note that you are all really intelligent and thoughtful and I’ve learned a lot. Thanks!
Oh, and I totally believe that all the “wars” are started and maintained by profiteers, not prophets.
January 2, 2014 at 11:32 pm #802316
BreezyParticipant80 posts but only 55 appear? Strange…Anyhow
wake, in reply to your questions I do not make a habit of discussing religion with friends or strangers, especially not in forums such as this. I have found it is very, very easy to fall prey to a person’s semantic trap – control the language, control the contest-, only to then find yourself defending your opinion/beliefs OR being insulted or demeaned.
January 2, 2014 at 11:51 pm #802317
twobottlesParticipantWhile I can respect the opinions of those who say things like “How can you look at the complexity of an atom and not believe in a creator?”, I prefer to believe that these wonders are simply due to scientific processes that we have yet to understand.
January 2, 2014 at 11:53 pm #802318
wakefloodParticipantAs is your prerogative, Breezy. And while I freely admit being curious about how you or anyone else who cares to engage the discussion would respond, I’m respectful of that perspective.
Thanks for sharing it.
January 2, 2014 at 11:54 pm #802319
metrognomeParticipant‘Thou art God’. For a fascinating read on the subject of this thread, I would recommend Robert Heinlein’s science fiction classic ‘Stranger In A Strange Land’. The unabridged version is best as the novel as originally issued had about a third removed as it was considered too advanced for its time.
January 3, 2014 at 12:21 am #802320
JTBParticipantVBD,
Perhaps it’s the word “psychic” that gives you pause for concern. I use it mostly because that’s the term used by a number of Jungian writers I respect and the context is relative to the “psyche.” But I completely appreciate that for many people the reference conjures notions of a psychic and that rapidly becomes tedious. So I try to be really careful about how I use the term.
Since I raised that topic, I might as well expand on it a bit since it relates to my earlier comments about the unconscious and assimilating psychic energy from it. I’ve come to think that the notable “psychics” who claim to be channeling entities from other dimensions, are actually people who have blundered into the deeper regions of their own psyche and connected with one of the complexes or archetypes we know surface from time to time in human experience. Unfortunately for them, their ego can’t deal with the fact that something more powerful lies within their personality, so it defensively identifies the complex as something outside or other. Without the skill or guidance to understand how this material can be integrated into consciousness, they fixate on the notion it’s a separate entity. If they’re able to tap into that state of mind frequently, they may wind up like one of the noted “channelers” spouting wisdom of the ages in somewhat distorted fashions. Because they typically acquire a large amount of confidence via this surge, it becomes a great vehicle for cultivating followers. Ultimately all of that results from an insecure ego unable to deal with the fact that something more powerful lies within.
January 3, 2014 at 12:34 am #802321
JoBParticipantJanuary 3, 2014 at 12:35 am #802322
JTBParticipanttwobottles,
Indeed, but I’ll quibble to say these are natural processes and science is the best tool we’ve crafted to understand them so far. If there is an “intelligence” behind or within the dance of random events that is creation, it is because intelligence is the basic tool I have to work with. Things or processes that don’t evolve into something simply fade away until their energy is absorbed into something that does endure. Think cosmic dust winding up as an amoeba on earth after spiraling around for a few million years. I think that’s what the so-called “random” nature of the cosmos is and I think it’s absolutely awesome, much more so than some entity spitting out stuff. Again, I encourage people to read Dawkins’ Unweaving the Rainbow if you want to really marvel at this world.
January 3, 2014 at 12:40 am #802323
JoBParticipantbreezy.. check your setting to see if you have inadvertently ignored anyone…..
that is the most likely explanation for the mismatch in posts..
January 3, 2014 at 12:46 am #802324
waynsterParticipanthmmm these might help then again lmao….
January 3, 2014 at 12:50 am #802325
VBDParticipantJTB, I think you and I are diverging a bit now. I do not agree that, ” “psychics” who claim to be channeling entities from other dimensions, are actually people who have blundered into the deeper regions of their own psyche and connected with one of the complexes or archetypes we know surface from time to time in human experience. “
I don’t think it’s that profound. I tend to think of “psychics” as being in two camps:
1) Con artists who use trickery to fool people.
2) People who have studied the techniques of the charade and legitimately believe they are tapping into a “power”, but are really just doing the “trick”.
January 3, 2014 at 1:13 am #802326
metrognomeParticipant“Ooh-ooh-ooooh! Mr. Kotter!! Ooh-ooh-ooooh!”
“Yes. Arnold. What is it?”
“Ooh-ooh-ooooh! This should be good!! Bill Nye the Science Guy, who has been critical of creationism, is going to debate the founder of Kentucky’s Creationist Museum!!”
“Hey Mr. Kot-taire, that sounds like fun!”
“Why yes, it does Mr. Freddie ‘Boom Boom’ Washington. Class, you have your assignment.”
“Mr. Kotter, I got a note from Epstein’s mother”
“Sorry, Epstein, you have to watch the debate too. Maybe you and Barbarino can watch it together.”
“I’m soooo confused!”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roadtrippers/bill-nye-signs-on-for-sci_b_4533225.html
January 3, 2014 at 1:19 am #802327
skeeterParticipant“Human reason has the peculiar fate … that it is burdened with questions that it cannot dismiss … but which it also cannot answer”
– Immanuel Kant
January 3, 2014 at 3:28 am #802328
BreezyParticipantJoB, thanks for the heads up. There was a block and that person had 30 posts on this thread alone…wow..maybe that’s why he/she was blocked. Nevertheless, mystery solved…now I can read all of the rather verbose posts…;)
January 3, 2014 at 4:14 am #802329
JoBParticipantJanuary 3, 2014 at 4:23 am #802330
wakefloodParticipantHey JoB, who’s more verbose and block-worthy than yours truly?? ;-).
January 3, 2014 at 4:31 am #802331
BreezyParticipantYou two are funny ;)
I can be pretty verbose myself, but then I get sober and I’m back to single word replies :)
January 3, 2014 at 4:47 am #802332
miwsParticipantJanuary 3, 2014 at 6:01 am #802333
BreezyParticipantWhat I don’t get is how wake was blocked. I don’t think I’d even looked at my profile until today, except when I set it up. Alias?
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