War on Science

[VBD]

Here’s one of my scientific heroes speaking on this topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YltEym9H0x4

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[VBD]

And here’s another one in response to the comment about awe one feels when on a mountain top:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chQqVT3VK38

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[JoB]

a non-believers view of religion is based on some pretty shaky assumptions … among them that people choose religion because of their fear of the unknown

another is that spirituality is somehow something totally separated from religion

when you approach religion from those viewpoints … when you focus on the framework of religion … there is only one reasonable conclusion

the mistake is assuming that those assumption define the world..

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[VBD]

When it comes to shaky assumptions, JoB, religious believers have sizable lead…

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[wakeflood]

JoB, no mystery, no science. Sure. And honey is sweet. Not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China??

mark, again, I get what you’re saying about the desire to have something that makes you feel some emotional attachment to the universe. That’s comforting for you and many others. I’ve never argued that here.

Clearly many, many people believe in an interventionist god. I even suspect that you do. Why else would you feel compelled to not add an “o” to the word in these posts? Do you fear that you’re being disrespectful to some entity? If the only interaction that existed between your god and this physical universe was to kick it off, what possible reason would that entity have to care how you spelled its name in a blog post? How would it even KNOW of it? And if that entity is “All Knowing” by its nature, then according to quantum mechanics, that entity by its very observation of our actions is affecting them. In other words, interventionist by default.

This gets back to my earlier posts. SOMEWHERE in the continuum of “science to faith” people are making decisions about where they feel compelled to insert an entity – if any. WHERE that point IS influences their actions in the real world. And that has empirically shown itself in disbelief or distrust of realities that affect us all.

The problem in my perspective, is that people don’t want to discuss where that point IS because they can’t defend how they came to that decision. Hence the “hand to the face” shutdown of that discussion manifested in concept of infallibility of “belief”.

You may think you’ve explained to us here where that point is for you…but I just threw out a potential conflict between what you’ve told us and what you’ve written about that point.

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[JoB]

VBD…

I disagree.. but then i would wouldn’t I?

I have faith.

The difference between us is that i know i have made a choice to believe…

you think you haven’t made a choice not to believe

you think you have made a scientific decision based on ???????????

If life’s mystery leads us to explore the universe through science…

what makes you believe that life’s mystery doesn’t also lead us to explore the universe through faith?

just because you have chose to believe only in one method of exploration doesn’t mean that the other ceases to exist

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[wakeflood]

Believe in WHAT, exactly, JoB. Where does faith trump science in your belief system??

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[JoB]

have you ever opened a carton of milk before it’s sell by date and found the taste “off” ?

do you believe in the “science” of the sell by date

and drink it because it has to be safe

or do you pour it down the sink?

i pour it down the sink

i take it on faith that if it tastes off to me it is probably not just unappealing but unsafe to drink.

every day we make countless decisions that are predicated on little more than our faith in our experience of our surroundings..

why should faith in religion be any different?

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[wakeflood]

For instance, does god affect individual outcomes of health? Does your god impact that under any circumstances?

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[JoB]

and let me be clear..

we are in perfect agreement that discounting science because you think it conflicts with your faith is unwise at best…

where we are not in agreement is that the current move towards discounting science to maximize profit really has anything at all to do with religion…

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[VBD]

JoB, as a person who grew up in a religious family, that went to church, and had bible study, I am not coming to my conclusions via ignorance. I am quite familiar with the religious lifestyle.

Most atheists are well versed in the issues of spiritualism; something that evangelicals have a hard time understanding. I’ve had people quote the bible to me as a way of “showing me the light”. They can’t seem to understand that quoting from what I perceive as fiction, does not sway me or create truth.

I am not an atheist because I haven’t read the bible. I am an atheist because I have.

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[wakeflood]

Wow, JoB, did you just really use an estimated dairy expiration date as an example of science??

C’mon, you’re just making my point above.

Where in the continuum does faith trump science for you?

And since we’re on the subject, in an earlier thread about faith, I expressed my scientific understanding of my PERSONAL religious experience as merely being a chemical interaction’s artifact of my higher mammalian brain. You walked right by that point in your response by suggesting my personal experience just wasn’t the same as my religious relative’s – and yours. Why, again?

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[JoB]

unexpected from me.. i think

http://www.thejaywalker.com/pages/shit_happens.html

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[JoB]

wakeflood..

LOL.. what is science except an observation by man corroborated by similar observations by other men quantified into data?

i couldnt’ find a better definition of an expiration date … could you?

Methinks you take SCIENCE far too seriously my friend.

as for this trump thing

here you go again with the ASSumption that one must in fact trump or negate the other..

that the two are somehow not compatible

perhaps not in your brain..

but in mine they work alongside one another just fine.

of course.. i am female and that might explain everthing ;-> ;->

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[JoB]

VBD..

you are an athiest because of your own personal experience with your own personal religious lifestyle.

i nearly became one for the same reason.

but.. i didn’t.

what is your scientific explanation for why comparable crucibles with comparable ingredients did not produce the same end result?

is it because i am closer to my end result than you? ;)

is it because your comments would tend to indicate that you see the world in terms of black and white.. one or the other.. inviolable or flawed?

or is it simply due to the variability of human experience?

i suspect it is the latter…

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[JoB]

VBD

” I’ve had people quote the bible to me as a way of “showing me the light”. They can’t seem to understand that quoting from what I perceive as fiction, does not sway me or create truth.”

which is why i don’t quote scripture.. pretty much ever.. and why my son believes me to be “unsaved’.

how do you explain that even fiction can contain truth to someone who chooses not to believe?

i speak in defense of faith.. not of the religious straight jackets too many on both sides of the god/no god aisle have made of it.

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[wakeflood]

JoB, yeah, I can get fairly wound up about this topic. :-) But I look around this planet and see our truly despicable treatment of it and its inhabitants and it makes me really upset.

But, I notice you choose to not answer the simplest question I posed. One I ask with the sole intent of helping me understand how “faith” manifests itself in their personal belief system.

Does your god impact individual health outcomes under any circumstances?

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[mark47n]

We’ve reached a point in this discussion where we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I will continue to compartmentalize my life just like I suspend disbelief when I watch a movie. I simply don’t believe I have to take an either/or position.

Suffice to say I do accept evolution as fact. I don’t believe in an interventionist G-d, despite the “o” and I’m not changing my philosophical point of view based on one or two youtube clips. Oh, I’ve also been totally gobsmacked when I meet people who announce that they don’t believe in science and taken them to task, especially since they’ve often held jobs that are rooted in science/physics and are unable to see the connection.

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[JoB]

wakeflood..

“Does your god impact individual health outcomes under any circumstances?”

I don’t know the answer to that question if you are talking about “mankind” … though i do think my individual experience could be extrapolated to generate a positive answer to that question.

I do know that my faith allows me to live a pretty full life within the constraints of some pretty significant symptoms of ill health that would be completely intolerable to others.

In my particular case, i am pretty sure that means that my understanding of god has definitely impacted by individual health outcome in a positive way…

has it cured me? no.

But then, i didn’t expect it to.

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[wakeflood]

JoB, I kinda’ thought you might take that tack. The concepts are different.

Does an outside entity affect your physical health is different than, does your individual faith have a potential impact on your physiology. (The assumption being that you can create positive impacts on your health using a positive mindset regardless of what belief system is behind it.) The latter requires no outside entity to intervene. The former does.

You answered the question in the affirmative using the latter assumption. Does it also hold true for the former?

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[JoB]

wake..

to add to that last post..

my faith helps me live with my particular circumstance in this world

it leads me to focus on what i can still do in spite of what might seem at times to be overwhelming difficulty

to see the possibilities

to take delight in the unfolding wonder of the world and the people around me

it makes living with my ill health possible

i know no more than you what will happen when i finally get to recycle this increasingly worn out piece of flesh i call home…

but i am really really curious to find out

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[VBD]

JoB,

“how do you explain that even fiction can contain truth to someone who chooses not to believe?”

I have no problem with the idea of fiction being inspiring and supplying some life lessons. It can change peoples views for better or worse.

For example, the movie “Forrest Gump” is full of philosophical lessons and inspiration. The emotions one feels while watching the film are real, and there are several actual historical events included to give the story better attachment to the viewers.

However, that does NOT lead me to the conclusion that Forrest Gump is an accurate depiction of a real person.

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[wakeflood]

Hey mark, I agree that we’ve hit that point. I wish we hadn’t but we have. We move on. :-)

Thanks for throwing your thoughts out on the topic.

I’ll leave this one after one last question for you…and it’s rhetorical. You sound like you’re done examining your belief system going forward in your life. Roger that. What, if anything, would change it and why?

HNY to all! Let’s make 2014 a better year for us and the planet.

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[JoB]

wake..

you discount my answer because it does not meet the framework of your assumptions…

you assume that “god” is an “outside entity”.

which allows you to dismiss the positive outcomes i recount as generated by my faith

by reframing them as a positive mindset..

LOL.. i can’t speak for anyone else…

but the cause of my “positive mindset” has little to do with my faith and a lot to do with necessity .. pure and simple necessity.

I have always had to learn to make do with what i had.

but, I have not always had faith… so you see, like VBD i have a pretty clear picture of before and after .. mine has just had a far different outcome :)

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[JoB]

wakeflood..

“I’ll leave this one after one last question for you…and it’s rhetorical. You sound like you’re done examining your belief system going forward in your life. Roger that. What, if anything, would change it and why?”

i know this question was not directed at me… and i know i can’t answer it.. i don’t think anyone can.

because the answer to this question can don’t be found on a balance sheet based on a compilation of facts …

it can only be found where no man dares to go ;-)

in the human heart.

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