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December 30, 2013 at 10:02 pm #610045
wakefloodParticipantSo, a recent Pew survey shows lots of people in this country don’t believe in evolution. And another recent one indicated a plurality of those who do, think it happens “with guidance from god”.
This doesn’t happen by accident. It takes a concerted effort to replace science with “fill in the blank with word of your choice that indicates NOT science”. And it looks like that effort is successful – heck, over a quarter of Dems don’t believe in it???
So, anyone out there who thinks evolution a sham or “guided by god” want to enlighten the rest of us on your reasoning?
This stuff has consequences, people. Let’s at least talk about how we got here.
Here’s a link to the story: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/30/evolution-survey_n_4519441.html#comments
December 30, 2013 at 10:23 pm #802235
anonymeParticipantWake, I am so glad you posted this topic. I just saw that headline; I knew things were bad, but not this bad. A similar piece last week indicated that about the same percentages don’t trust science at all. We are truly living in a dark age, and this ignorance may have already tipped the scale toward the extinction of our own species.
A few weeks ago I watched a video on Upworthy with David Suzuki talking on this very subject, especially as it relates to climate change. It really hits you up side the head with a 2×4; I haven’t been the same since watching it. We have this beautiful, bountiful planet that we have (as a species) willfully destroyed. After watching, I began to make some connections. I think that the reason our governments are taking no action on climate change is because they know quite well it’s too late – thus the token gestures. Watch it and weep:
Of course there are those who will watch it and dismiss the conclusion because they don’t “believe” in science.
December 30, 2013 at 10:34 pm #802236
wakefloodParticipantHubris, greed, willful and even prideful ignorance…it’s what we do. And it surely will be our undoing.
I saw that video posted anon and I couldn’t bring myself to watch it yet. I didn’t want to spoil the good mood of my holidays.
December 30, 2013 at 10:40 pm #802237
anonymeParticipantIf the video accurately depicts what I’ve long suspected to be true, then there’s no need to hurry to watch it. Enjoy your holidays!
Then watch the video and follow it up by watching “Melancholia”. Only if you don’t have any firearms in the house.
December 30, 2013 at 11:23 pm #802238
anonymeParticipantYet another news piece today laments the fact that the U.S. population is growing at the slowest rate since the Great Depression, calling the trend “troubling”. WTF?!! WHY is it “troubling”? It should be cause for celebration, if only it weren’t too little, too late. Only those who prefer to believe in magical beings while eschewing science can also delude themselves that resources increase right along with population. Air, water, trees, and farmable land are not loaves and fishes.
December 30, 2013 at 11:40 pm #802239
wakefloodParticipantYes well, the folks who find it troubling fall into one or more of the following categories:
* They’re upset by the thought that in some future generation there won’t be enough workers paying into Social Security to support the current retirees. (This is not necessarily an illogical thought, but it certainly can be mitigated without causing societal-level disruption. And I won’t even bother to point out the hypocritical position that many of these folks don’t believe in a social safety net anyway.)
* They think birth control is against god’s wishes and that human’s primary responsibility beyond conversion of the unfaithful is procreation.
* They assume that whatever is happening to the earth is god’s will and no matter what we do, god will provide(which is your point).
Or he’ll just “rapture” the faithful up into his heavenly existence to rock on with whatever thoust wants to rock wit. Tain’t no thing.
December 30, 2013 at 11:44 pm #802240
wakefloodParticipantMilton was right but we didn’t “lose” Paradise. We effing beat it to death.
December 31, 2013 at 1:55 am #802241
VBDParticipantPeople like science when it supports a belief. When it conflicts with belief, they say it’s wrong, corrupted, or simply a lie made up to protect some special interest.
A good number of people I’ve had discussions with on WS Blog would not agree with many of the opinions on the following website, even though they are based on prevailing peer-reviewed scientific findings:
December 31, 2013 at 8:09 pm #802242
BreezyParticipantI believe in God. I understand, believe and know science, but not as a professional scientist. For me, science and God are not mutually exclusive.
December 31, 2013 at 8:41 pm #802243
wakefloodParticipantNoted, Breezy. Can I ask a question or two?
Is your god an interventionist god? Does he/she/it have an ongoing interaction with the physical universe? If yes, what types of things does your god manipulate?
December 31, 2013 at 9:08 pm #802244
metrognomeParticipantfootball games, unless He’s betting the spread or unless Notre Dame is playing. Ever notice how so many players overtly acknowledge Him when they score, etc., but not when they fumble, are dropped for a loss, etc.
Sorry for the interruption; you may now resume regular programming.
December 31, 2013 at 9:16 pm #802245
wakefloodParticipantSo Breezy, if you care to continue with your train of thought, in my OP, I note that many people believe that evolution is “guided by god”. Am I to assume that describes your position as well? As in, that’s one of the list of things that god manipulates in the physical universe?
December 31, 2013 at 10:00 pm #802246
metrognomeParticipantit seems the poll results were divided into three parts:
1) no evolution; creation as described in the Bible is what happened (and I assume, there has been no evolution of any kind since);
2) evolution guided by God; not clear how it started (e.g. Big Bang or Bible Creation story);
3) evolution from the Big Bang, no guidance from God, no Bible creation story.
It is interesting that participants seemingly were given the option of a Christian religion or ‘unaffiliated’. Were Jews, Muslims, pagans and atheists ignored or lumped into ‘unaffiliated’? It is also interesting that a search of Google News did not show any stories on the survey by conservative news shows or comments by conservative pundits.
Also, the first group also likely believes in the Rapture, etc., and therefore doesn’t believe in being stewards of the Earth, as it will disappear in a fireball some day. Former Sec’y of the Interior James Watt and his policies are a good example of this belief system.
Here is the actual Pew Survey report and some of the questions:
January 1, 2014 at 7:20 am #802247
HMC RichParticipantDouglas Adams had it correct. It’s the mice.
January 1, 2014 at 5:30 pm #802248
mark47nParticipantI am curious; why the ridicule directed at people that believe in G-d? To say that science eliminates the possibility of G-d is inaccurate at best and is a flawed premise as you cannot prove a negative. And to call it a”war on science” is utterly preposterous and provocative.
All that said, there is a particular brand of believer that is held thrust before us, as the image of a person that is a believer. I’ll not beloabor this post with a description as to that image as i’m sure we’ve all seen it in the news and politics…and Texas. I wouldn’t say that image is an accurate representatin of religious people as a whole and of Christian people in particular.
Now I will brink my coffee.
January 1, 2014 at 6:59 pm #802249
VBDParticipantMark47n, I don’t understand why you think questioning people’s belief in evolution qualifies as ridicule?
The reality is that evolution has been repeatedly confirmed. There is no doubt that it occurs, and is the method by which all living things on earth have come to be.
So why is such a sound concept is rejected by a surprising number of people?
The vast majority of the deniers claim religious belief as the reason for their disbelief. That’s not ridicule, it’s fact.
January 1, 2014 at 10:26 pm #802250
mark47nParticipantFew of the comments here are people questioning or denying the validity of evolution, my own included. My point is simply that it’s become commonplace to ridicule or and make people who believe in G-d feel that they have to defend their beliefs or heap derision upon them as being simple.
Breezy, in point of fact, simply said that he/she did not, like myself, feel that science and religion are mutually exclusive.
It’s reasonable to say that science doesn’t have all of the answers. Morality is not a scientific construct, it is a societal construct and radically different from culture to culture. In fact, I’d argue that religion and a belief in G-d or Gods – depending on what faith – is what forms many of those societal mores, for good or ill, and that science answers the questions that are posed by the physical world.
It’s also possible for me to see G-d in the simple construct of an atom. I understand their construction and their bonds, to some degree. I understand how valence electrons make my stupid computer work and runs the lights in my home. I have a glimmer of understanding of how cells work. Perhaps the beauty and symmetry I see there, a symmetry that exists in so many places and is repeated on larger and larger scales from atoms to galaxies inspires me to wonder how random chaos could create such regular creations. So, I attribute it to G-d.
Perhaps the proper question is ‘what is G-d’? That I can’t tell you. I don’t believe it’s some white-haired old man who meddles in the daily affairs of people or other equally preposterous constructs.
I will also say that I struggle, mightily, with people that deny the validity of science. Especially given that they do it loudly in front of camera’s and other recording devices that are the prodigy of science. They live in houses with heat, refrigeration, lights, etc and get their news tailored to their point of view from the internet, sometimes broadcast to them from space. SCIENCE!!!
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I struggle with people who take extreme views that leave little room for other ideas.
January 2, 2014 at 1:06 am #802251
wakefloodParticipantMark, you don’t need god(s) to have a moral foundation. Secular humanism is as old as civilization, even though the name isn’t.
And speaking specifically for myself, the reason I ask probing, and obviously potentially perjorative sounding questions (from your perspective) is that I’m trying to figure out what level of self education that individual has gone to before they stopped evaluating their beliefs and drove a figurative stake in the ground and called it good?
Take your example of seeing god in the atom or other complex beauty in the physical world. That tautological concept has been around since Aquinas and Pascal’s wager. Does examination end there?
I get what you’re saying on some level, but I also feel like asking a probing question isn’t the same thing as derision. But let’s get real for a minute. Religion and faith significantly impact our daily life. If we’re sharing our planet and making decisions that impact each other, what’s the harm in asking people how they reach their conclusions? If at some point, a person transitions from using “best available science” and logical constructs to “I just feel like this is right”, then it’s helpful to know where that point is. And maybe more importantly, if that person is open to moving that point and what it would take to do that?
January 2, 2014 at 4:57 am #802252
HMC RichParticipantWith very little religious background, I myself believe in God, creation, and evolution. I am of the Opinion that the universe, and living beings, cannot be just coincidence.
Breaking down the Atom and DNA there is such an elegance to our universe. For example there are laws of nature that I do not think can be, again, Coincidence. One example is human birth. It cannot be accomplished without an egg being fertilized. People will say that the baby was an accident but that only means that it was unplanned. Nature dictates with the right conditions that a baby can be made with the proper, for lack of a better term, procedure. Even a clone has to have the right conditions to happen. It is not random. And for that to happen there are specific operations that happen, otherwise it does not work. With that said, there is more than one way to reproduce on our earth. The amazing thing about evolution is that reproduction can happen in a variety of ways in our own earth.
I do think that plenty of people need to keep an open mind about these things. And I believe in the long run with enough knowledge from science that the belief in God will be warranted as a scientific phenomena. But until then I have to use faith.
The other part of me likes my free will, and I would prefer not to be ruled by a superior being as depicted by the Greek or Norse Gods
And if I am wrong, lo there I will see you in the Halls of Valhalla.
January 2, 2014 at 5:38 am #802253
JoBParticipantwake..
i too am appalled by the level of ignorance about science revealed by the recent pew studies
but i am also appalled by the assumption that intelligent people must suspend all belief in science and logic to believe in God.
January 2, 2014 at 7:23 am #802254
wakefloodParticipantWho the heck said that you need to suspend all belief in science and logic to believe in god? Not me. That’s a standard right wing tactic, JoB, taking a simple point and blowing it to extremes to take fake offense.
I just wanted to point out that where a god is thought to intervene in the universe is purely arbitrary and if we’re making decisions about how to function as a species, using faith that is tethered exclusivrly to personal whim to decide important things makes little sense to me. And clearly, many in this country do.
Rich, your point about the elegance of the universe not being coincidental, you’re making a thousand year old tautological argument for divinity. One that was better suited to the days when the plague was assumed to be generated from humors. Just because its complex doesn’t mean it requires divine intervention. Science explains it quite nicely.
January 2, 2014 at 8:19 am #802255
wsn00bParticipantSide note about the title of the post:
Scientifically speaking, if there is no measurable large scale evidence of weapons and bloodshed involved when testing scientific assertions and hypothesis, then , there is no “War”.
The phrase “War on X” isn’t a good way to describe the discourse or start a discussion. This forum shouldn’t stoop to the level of babble on Fox News and the “War” on Christmas,etc ;-)
Back to your actual question:
We are fundamentally debating between *beliefs* in deities and their assertions and their guidance on physical processes vs our acceptance of the data from our senses and related measurements of the evidence that is available to us about evolution.
You can choose to believe in untestable myths and treat them as facts (aka religion). Alternately you can choose to believe in measurable evidence and testable positive hypotheses (aka science).
You may personally choose to do both in non mutually exclusive ways but I personally (and rather bluntly) disagree with that as an available option. You have the option to disagree. Free country and all that.
No points for guessing where I stand :)
Also, as a caution, when sampling evidence or papers on scientific assertions, take the time to find out if their data is openly available and peer reviewed and not from closed think tanks with biased funding sources that like to call themselves “Science”. There is a lot of junk science out there. Unfortunately the signal to noise ratio is pretty low given that everybody has a voice (on the Internet) and Media/Journalism/Education is sub-par. This is one of the causes of the problem with folks understanding the scientific method.
Believing and the delegation of the explanation of the world that goes along with it is just heck of a lot easier.
January 2, 2014 at 1:15 pm #802256
mark47nParticipantI didn’t intend to say that religion is why there are morals. I thought I edited that out. Sorry.
I still haven’t seen anyone claim, in this forum, to believe in an interventionist G-d. Hell, even most religious leaders, if they’re halfway sane will tell you that biblical tales are metaphor. I can’t even have a reasonale discussion with a biblical literalist as I can’t find a place to stand that allows me to see the world in that light. I don’t think I need to pick one or the other. Scince doesn’t explain how I feel when I spent a polar winter looking up at the Aurora Australis or what it feels like to stand alone on top of a mountain. It may be that deities were created by people so they felt less alone in the universe, but a world without ghost stories (those would also be eliminated by science as they would only be mass murderer stories) and the possibility of the unexplainable is a lot less interesting. I believe (what a pesky word!) that I don’t have to exist in an either or manner. Additionally, I met quite a few religious high powered scientists…the actual peer reviewed variety from Ivy League faculties. If they aren’t willing to dismiss the possibility of deities than why should I?
January 2, 2014 at 3:27 pm #802257
JoBParticipantJanuary 2, 2014 at 3:28 pm #802258
JoBParticipant -
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