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January 17, 2012 at 7:05 pm #743256
kootchmanMemberIt’s not authoritarian redblack? Then do tell, why do we lead the world in incarcerations? Only the power of an authoritarian regime can generate those statistics. We incarcerate more per capita than any country in the world… except.. Iran. Spin that one.
It may be a MLK quote…. not sure
“We are either the most evil people in the world, or the most repressive”
Which is it?
January 18, 2012 at 3:19 pm #743257
redblackParticipantevil.
and what is the root of all evil?
prisons, by the way, are not filled with tax cheats. or their lawyers. your people are not oppressed, kootch. (although maybe we should start, huh? rich people – like lloyd blankfein – pilfer in broad daylight. yet very few of them go to prison for it.)
prisons are filled with violent and desperate poor people. yes, some of them are innocent. some of them are non-violent. and some of them can’t afford adequate legal counsel to defend themselves.
now, do you blame the criminals, do you blame the government, or do you blame society for the fact that poverty is skyrocketing and that selling guns and drugs are the only ways some people can make any money?
January 18, 2012 at 5:38 pm #743258
kootchmanMemberredblack… my esteemed friend…when you drive past one of those large, expansive complexes ask this question. ok?
WHO PUT THEM THERE? Why the power of the state did. Prisons do not go out on midnight raids and grab people. Courts and police powers do. You got my vote for slammer time for, embezzlers, a particularly punitive measure for professionals who steal from the public treasury,
So your position is, being poor means you must break laws? Then tell me, why do we incarcerate at higher rates than Guatamala. Panama, Costa Rico, Malawi, Gabon, etc. etc. etc…? Surely poorer, no social services, nada…
January 18, 2012 at 5:51 pm #743259
kootchmanMemberredblack… my esteemed friend…when you drive past one of those large, expansive complexes ask this question. ok?
WHO PUT THEM THERE? Why the power of the state did. Prisons do not go out on midnight raids and grab people. Courts and police powers do. You got my vote for slammer time for, embezzlers, a particularly punitive measure for professionals who steal from the public treasury,
So your position is, being poor means you must break laws? Then tell me, why do we incarcerate at higher rates than Guatamala. Panama, Costa Rico, Malawi, Gabon, etc. etc. etc…? Surely poorer, no social services, nada…
Let’s see… cops use arrests as their benchmark for performance. Now if they arrest me I will mount a vigorous defense, and unless every “i” was dotted and every “t” crossed, I may very well sue the state, the police, city etc… for any violation my lawyer can find..As is my right. DOJ has as much admitted they won’t prosecute the wealthy, they prefer to settle. See any Fanny and Freddie execs in jail? Any Wall Street fraud convictions including all the ones now working for Obama? Even Joe Bidens hero John Corizine, is out on bail… after pilfering a billion ..No, we will arrest the poor because it’s a slam dunk. The cops get time and a half, minimum 3 hours, (union contract) so the more they can jam through the courts, the more they make. Arrest 10 minority folks, preferably poor… that’s an extra week and half of pay. Not bad eh? Arrest a white kid from Clyde Hill…. and there is no way in hell jail time is coming. They can fight back. Think of arresting poor, minority as assured overtime pay. That’s how SPD officers top the 100K per annum mark. There is nothing but state employee incentives to arrest, try, convict, and incarcerate the poor. Drug use, dealing, etc.. is about the same for both populations. Yet, the rate of incarceraton is 8 times higher for blacks than whites. Cops get paid, court employees get paid, prosecuting attorneys get paid, prison workers get paid… the more the merrier.
January 18, 2012 at 8:14 pm #743260
redblackParticipantyeah, and the poverty rate among blacks is higher than among whites. far higher. what stat did i see recently…? that the average wealth of african americans is $5,000 per person. think about that. it probably exactly mirrors incarceration rates.
regarding cops’ pay in seattle:
http://www.seattle.gov/police/jobs/benefits/salary.htm
your six-figure salary claim is not the average. and if i recall correctly, the cops have suspended hiring, but they’re still understaffed because of retirements, and no one is replacing the retirees. so you could look at it this way: pay two cops $37 per hour for a total of about $150,000 per year, or pay one cop overtime for $100,000 per year. which is cheaper?
and if you think we have all of these laws just so cops and judges and lawyers and prison guards can have jobs, and that they’re abusing the spirit of the laws, why don’t you serve on the OPA review board?
January 18, 2012 at 8:25 pm #743261
kootchmanMemberUh uh redblack… after 54 months, and that does not count overtime or the 40 per cent cost of the fringe benefit package… we have too many now. Cut more. Not bad for a low skill job classification. Police prey on the minority community because they can’t fight back, and their is personal financial gain to do so. That argument you don’t address.
STEP 6
(54 Months)
$40.33 $7,017.42 $ 84,209.04
One the OPA is “insiders” on the government teat, two, the OPA is NOT a reform or oversight group.. no… I want elected civilian review boards… and suspension of police guild bargaining rights for disciplinary means and methods and suspension of city contracts to defend officers against civil rights abuses. Let them be subject to civil lawsuits just as you or I would be for civil rights violations…as private citizens or business owners.
January 18, 2012 at 8:35 pm #743262
JoBParticipantkootchman…
you are advocating less police officers than we have now?
have you not noticed crime rates escalating with the fall in our economy?
or are you counting on your personal arsenal to protect you and your property and the hh with the rest of us?
January 18, 2012 at 8:42 pm #743263
kootchmanMemberMy arsenal as you call it… is indeed part of the back up plan. ( personally I think the dogs do a better job as first responders) It’s quicker and more effective than 911. Well JoB which is it? More crime because there are less police or more crime because the economy is awaiting a rebirth in business confidence?
January 18, 2012 at 8:47 pm #743264
kootchmanMemberBTY… Your SPD says property crimes are down… rape and assaults are up.. the latter having nothing to do with the economy.
http://www.seattle.gov/spd/Crime/STATS.HTM
But we will see…. let’s task them with checking complaints on plastic bag violations too. Car 54 Where are You?… someone is handing out nutritious, safe, food, to the homeless and hungry..OUTSIDE!!! Book em’ Dano.
January 18, 2012 at 9:07 pm #743265
JoBParticipantkootchman…
rape and assaults have nothing to do with the economy?
really?
context kootch
context
January 18, 2012 at 9:18 pm #743266
kootchmanMemberWhat? I am broke therefore I felt a compulsion to rape? Y’ gods JoB.. at some point ya gotta figure it’s not all about income distribution… Jeez JoB I never went out and dragged a woman in the bushes cause i was broke…
January 19, 2012 at 7:48 am #743267
redblackParticipantJanuary 19, 2012 at 9:10 am #743268
waterworldParticipantOk, not that it makes any difference to y’all:
(1) The rates of almost all crime are down. Sex crimes fluctuate from year to year; the overall trends are down, and there’s no evidence that I know of that suggests the rate of sex crimes is tied to the size of the police force.
(2) Redblack: What do the fatcats’ lawyers have to do with fatcats making off with money that isn’t theirs? These executives don’t consult counsel before they steal. And the lawyers who defend them when they are charged with crimes weren’t involved in the crimes.
(3) Prisons are not filled with just a bunch of violent and desperate people. They are filled with far too many non-violent drug offenders and with people who could not afford counsel or who did not have qualified court-appointed counsel. More than that, though, our prisons are filled with people who are serving insanely long sentences for crimes of all kinds, because the American public believes that longer sentences are a good idea, and that they will reduce crime and prevent repeat offenses, despite all evidence to the contrary. Read any random crime story on this blog and you will see that your fellow citizens want longer and longer sentences for any kind of crime, whether it involves sex or violence or property or drugs or aggressive driving.
(4) Officers working for SPD earn far more than their posted salaries, because they work for private employers, in uniform, when they are off duty. The only difference between their off-duty work and their on-duty work is who is paying and managing them. The work is the same work and their authority as officers is the same.
(5) Although the government has charged shamefully few corporate executives in some of the biggest scandals making the headlines, it’s not true that they have totally defaulted, and it’s certainly not true that the financial wherewithal of corporate offenders scares the US attorneys away. Hundreds of corporate executives are prosecuted for fraud every year, even if some of the most deserving are avoiding it. With some corporate entities, it’s clear the DOJ goes for the big settlements — hundreds of millions in some cases — instead of putting executives in jail. It’s debatable whether that’s good policy, but it’s not the same as running off with their tails between their legs.
(6) The fact that some people who have been charged are out on bail doesn’t mean anything other than that a judge decided he or she was not a flight risk and was not likely to harm anyone while awaiting trial. It’s not a high bar, especially for a white collar defendant whose assets and family are in the states and who gives up his or her passport.
(7) Kootch: I hope you are never charged with a crime, because it’s a horrible experience. But don’t kid yourself that you’re going to sue the city or the state or the federal government if you are ever prosecuted. Unless you are lucky enough to have a cop beat the crap out of you (in which case you might have a separate case for the civil rights violation), you won’t have a case. Even for the wrongly accused, there is no remedy in the law for a merely false accusation other than the heavenly sound of “not guilty” at the end of your trial. And that generally occurs right about the time you are filing for bankruptcy, unless you really are one of the 1%.
In fairness, there is one exception in this state, which is that if you kill a person in self-defense or lawful defense of another, and if you are prosecuted for murder, and if you get a not guilty at the end of the trial, you can then ask the jury to decide whether you proved by a preponderance of the evidence that you killed in self-defense. If the jury goes your way, the bill for your attorneys fees goes to the state legislature, and they will eventually — after a year or two — pay you back. Oh wait, I think that they are considering repealing that law.
There’s also the federal Hyde Amendment, passed in 1997, to allow recovery of fees in cases of totally frivolous or malicious (and wrongful) prosecution. I’m not sure the exact number of prevailing plaintiffs under the Hyde Amendment — last time I checked, it was two.
January 19, 2012 at 4:14 pm #743269
JoBParticipant“Even for the wrongly accused, there is no remedy in the law for a merely false accusation other than the heavenly sound of “not guilty” at the end of your trial. And that generally occurs right about the time you are filing for bankruptcy, unless you really are one of the 1%. “
there is man in Nickelsville today (unless he is in the hospital from the reoccurring bouts of pneumonia brought on by living in Nickelsville) who learned this lesson the hard way:(
January 19, 2012 at 6:35 pm #743270
redblackParticipanti don’t dispute anything you say, waterworld, and i noted that there are innocent people behind bars, as well. it’s a fact that prisons are not exactly country clubs. and most of them are violent places – because of their violent inhabitants. quite frankly, i’m glad the violent ones are behind bars.
longer sentences? yes, probably. but it’s hard to make a standard punishment fit a specific crime. you’re right that there are far too many stoners in jail, and they never get jury trials.
but i think that making a criminal justice system more fair and reflexive in such a diverse society would require astronomical levels of government and tax dollars.
i was mainly referring to tax evasion and avoidance when i was talking about rich people and their lawyers doing time. my point is that tax loopholes – or craftily-exploited holes in the criminal code, for that matter – do not exist on purpose. the spirit of the law is to try to simplify and standardize the tax code. but rich people seem to detest giving the government anything at all. so they’ve created a cottage industry for tax attorneys.
they also buy their own tax policies when it suits them. a couple of high-dollar lobbyists and a few greased palms will allow that.
my opinion is that those people are tax cheats and that they and their enablers should at least be on the hook for some stiff monetary penalties, if not jail time. as i’ve said before, those people spend more money avoiding taxes than they do paying them.
i didn’t mean to suggest that DOJ – or the SEC – has abdicated its role. but when the head of goldman effing sachs is appointed treasury secretary instead of toilet-cleaning secretary, something is rotten in denmark. err, washington, DC.
January 19, 2012 at 9:09 pm #743271
kootchmanMemberTrial lawyers are the bread and butter of liberal politicians. Full employment is assured! The tax code is not a “cottage industry” it’s a full blown division of most corporations. So redblack..which loopholes do ya like and which not? That’s the only question cause you have em’ and I have em’ … and time spent avoiding taxes is a mighty big contributor to the bottom line… avoiding taxes is a good thing.. and legal. If reviewing deductions, and asset allocation didn’t pay big time no one would do it. That’s what the code if for. Finding the deductions, the shelters, you are entitled to. Tax evasion, now that is illegal. The two are not the same. The complexity is a history of influence peddling.. all 73,000 pages of it. Flat tax dude… ever wonder why democratic and republican lead congresses haven’t cleaned it up? It’s their re-election mechanism. Want to collect the revenue? New Tax code, flat, transparant, and comprehensible. But you will stick with this one cause you still think getting more from some is “fair”. Your ideology trumps the outcome you want. The best defense in a tax case IS the code…divining through the tea leaves to try and figure intent…and interpretation…muddy waters if you prefer. The very complexity is a deterrent to compliance. It’s easier to throw stoners in the slammer…
January 19, 2012 at 9:19 pm #743272
JoBParticipantkootch…
once upon a time there was a dividing line between maximizing deductions and tax evasion…
intent..
if the reason for your action was primarily to avoid paying taxes it was considered tax evasion.
i suspect that line has been blurred right out of existence by now
January 19, 2012 at 9:47 pm #743273
kootchmanMemberIf I remember correctly, the specific title of one of my courses was “Tax Avoidance and The Code”… sanctioned by that fine institution, Syracuse U. It was not a how to be a crook manual.. it was a study of the more common elements of minimizing tax liability. I fully intend to minimize my tax liability.. every year that is my intent. Deductions bty are only a part of tax avoidance… there is how you earn money in the future, how to defer tax liability, where to invest it, etc etc etc… all inducements by our congress to spur on a desired behavior. It would be downright unpatriotic not to follow their gently guiding hand. Tax evasion has specific elements… one being to deny the government revenue to which it has said it is entitled to… if it is not entitled to it… it ain’t evasion.
January 19, 2012 at 10:11 pm #743274
kootchmanMemberHere ya go redblack…. Barak Hussein Obama… 2008 winner of the Bankers and Finance Greatest Friend award, and wheel barrows of cash for his campaign.. a Democrats take on his performance as Enforcer in Chief …. and why his buddy and simpatico, the arms smuggler, Eric Holder won’t prosecute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Tusrz8ThIvA
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