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January 7, 2012 at 6:36 am #743206
JoBParticipantkootch..
nice sleight of hand.. but as JanS points out,
you didn’t address the issue of individual wages…
while the total wages and number of manufacturing jobs may have increased state wide…
individual worker’s wages and benefits have fallen.
more people working for less still means lower wages…
as for those stats about who supports unions?
it’s pretty simple really…
ask someone if they would like to pay more they always say no…
ask Tim Eyeman.. it’s worked out really well for him..
all he has to say is no new taxes and people vote against their best interests in droves..
when you have politicians stating that workers don’t need sick leave or overtime laws or child labor laws or …
it’s pretty evident that it’s not working out so well for workers…
but… demonizing unions has worked very well for big business…
if the occupy movement is any indication..
ordinary people are beginning to figure that out.
in this case.. paying less by avoiding union dues has cost the American worker far more than they can afford.
it’s time to organize..
the last generation had the great troubadours of their day to galvanize ordinary people..
we still have troubladours…
but now we have social networks too …
Occupy the internet ;->
January 7, 2012 at 6:46 am #743207
kootchmanMemberSee again I have said it over and over… unionize. Don’t you have a clue? You pay 20% more for a public project…because you are subsidizing union scale wages. Yes my dear… you are paying proportionately more of your income. Your standard of living is falling…not government workers. noooo the cost of government keeps rising, well above the rate of inflation or GDP growth, I want the best quality for the least cost. Unions are laughing at you… see in a free market, I will buy the best value for me… in a forced union envirinment I don’t have that choice. I have to pay 20 per cent more for something that in a free market would cost less.
If unions are such a great deal… then why does 90 per cent of our work force go unrepresented? Why has not one state that has gone right to work, repealed it? Cause they don’t want it!!!! .Having Davis Bacon is no different than corporate subsidy is it?
January 7, 2012 at 6:55 am #743208
kootchmanMemberSee that coke snorting cop? Protected by his union. THAT is the issue at hand ma’am… see him tampering with evidence? Union protections…. focus on that.
January 7, 2012 at 8:07 am #743209
JanSParticipantI think that we need to keep on them to make sure they know we’re paying attention. At the moment, the police union is established, and it is the way it is. We do not know if the union knew about his tampering. That’s a totally moot point anyway since he is deceased, and his particular case does not need defending or covering up, now, does it? Do I like everything that is going on in the police dept.? No. Would I use the same brush to paint every cop in seattle corrupt? Not on your life. But you do what you want…
January 7, 2012 at 11:03 am #743210
kootchmanMemberUh huh… it’s a culture. You are so … well.. gosh ..”tolerant” and patient when it’s one of your stripe….very sympathetic. Very zen like. It’s not a moot point, far from it. I know the drill…and so do you. No one has a partner, especially in the paramilitary structures of polizia .. with these kinds of secrets. Where were the ethics of his “brother” officers? The ones that won’t break the blue code and could have saved his life? Better to let him run loose and armed. Quite the mentoring program they have.
January 7, 2012 at 5:51 pm #743211
JoBParticipantkootchman..
those union wages “I” pay for public projects
raise taxes to pay for public services
(that 20% is reflected.. and then some… in their taxes..)
reduces the amount the public pays for health care for employees and their families
(we can control the cost up front with insurance or pay more by subsidizing healthcare the most expensive way possible.. though the emergency room)
reduces the amount the public pays for social services for the family
(there is a direct correlation between family income as a child and long term use of social services)
and produces a stable work force in a high stress occupation.
i would say John Q gets a very good deal.
January 7, 2012 at 5:54 pm #743212
JoBParticipantJanuary 7, 2012 at 6:14 pm #743213
waynsterParticipantIts very clear kootch that you have no clue on how unions operate. To call the Seattle police guild a paramilitary structure who protects those that break laws due too your assumption of a so called blue code is absurd and did you read all of what Jan said you should read what she posted or did you just gaffe it off and go on what you thought was what it should say……more the latter I take it…. if you did you would see that unions do work….. and unions do work well in right to work states. Union workers make more per hour then their non union workers do in those states until teabagger gop’ers get involved to make bank on the back off the middle class in those states……..
January 7, 2012 at 6:23 pm #743214
kootchmanMemberI would say John Q gets a royal screwing. Since all of these projects involve selling bonds….we have to pay interest for as long as 40 years on an overpriced product. Now, if a mortgage banker colluded with the home building industry and said.. let’s overcharge by 20% for every service and product we offer to the consumer, AND we will lock out and not offer underwriting to everyone who doesn’t play ball…for 20, 30 years… you would be off the charts wouldn’t you? But hey..it’s what pays the bonuses, benefits, healthcare, educations, for the banking industry..a very high stress vocation too… your monopoly is justified because they vote Democratic? And you wonder why money runs the system… how about least cost, goods and services for the benefit of the public? Right to work.. join if you are so disposed,don’t if you aren’t… but stop foisting this noble worker BS…. a stable work force is one that works.
January 7, 2012 at 6:28 pm #743215
kootchmanMemberDon’t hurt yourself… the stretch for this one will tear your joints apart!!… may I PLEASE quote you for humorous entertainment” You don’t even have to source or reference it…
“reduces the amount the public pays for social services for the family (there is a direct correlation between family income as a child and long term use of social services)”
January 10, 2012 at 4:25 pm #743216
JoBParticipantkootch…
no stretch there at all..
take a look at the stats
poverty is very expensive for our society
and make no mistake.. working for anything less than a living wage in this country is poverty…
compound that with the need for two incomes to support a family and you have created the perfect storm for increasing social services.
on the other hand…
children who have the advantage of the good nutrition, good health care, public schools and the discretionary to fund extracurricular activities that their parent’s union wage jobs offer… actually prosper…
becoming taxpayers who pay into the system.
that’s a good investment.
January 10, 2012 at 7:10 pm #743217
kootchmanMemberright… and STILL you don’t say what a living wage is. Both parents in this house work… what storm? Nary a nickel from a social service.. ever. I never asked you to come up with money to tuck the critter in for the night, read bedtime stories, walk the tide pools, go the library.. etc etc etc. The war on poverty is like the war on drugs.. ceaseless, endless, ever more expensive, consuming trillions, employing hundreds of thousands whose interest is the perpetuation of more of the same… and never a victory lap. It;s a bad investment because as you rightly point out… no matter how much we throw at it.. it gets worse.
January 11, 2012 at 2:07 am #743218
waynsterParticipantSo kootch your saying that they the poor or under insured should die. Just to decrease amount of money that has to be spent on the poor and the underprivileged just so you save a nickel…? Everything you said points that way so we treat them like they live in a third world country and not care..? What if that happens to you and you got sick lost everything… never say never…for it could happen and obamacare will look good…! Oh a good living wage job is one that pays your bills housing food healthcare and leaves you not a worry about how i’m I going to feed cloth and educate my family…..
January 11, 2012 at 3:09 am #743219
JoBParticipantkootch..
a living wage is one that allows you to put a roof over your family’s head, feed and clothe them, provide adequate medical care, schooling and minimum after school activities such as band or sports.
it would be nice if that wage included enough to build a savings account against a rainy day or job loss.. even nicer if it allowed you to take your family on vacations…
but not necessary.
as for all that money we are throwing at poverty…
chump change compared to what we throw at the penal system and acute medical care delivered through the emergency room…
it is much cheaper to provide good nutrition and medical care and educate a child so they can become a wage earner and tax payer than it is to warehouse them until they turn to the only opportunity they have to create income.. crime… and then warehouse them in between their crimes.
not nearly as satisfying for these who want to feel that they are self made.. but much cheaper.
January 11, 2012 at 4:57 am #743220
redblackParticipantabout 3 days ago, kootch said:
I want the best quality for the least cost.
finally. an honest admission from a conservative.
now, if we can just get you to admit that that isn’t what a free market economy is about, you might become wise.
jo: don’t be gettin’ all uppity.
January 11, 2012 at 5:18 am #743221
miwsParticipantJanuary 11, 2012 at 6:09 pm #743222
kootchmanMemberwaynster… “So kootch your saying that they the poor or under insured should die. “…. where did I say that? First, you have to graduate from the school system to take advantage of the opportunity. That is step one. Job? HS dropouts are 75% of the prison population. Self inflicted wounds.
January 11, 2012 at 8:59 pm #743223
JoBParticipantkootchman..
self inflicted wounds or those inflicted by a system that does not support keeping those kids in school?
lets face it. our prison systems are making someone a heck of a lot of money.
those who are enjoying the penal growth industry have no incentive for preventing the public cost of incarceration…
but as taxpayers, we do.
January 11, 2012 at 11:19 pm #743224
kootchmanMemberWhat would you have us do for them JoB.. read bedtime stories at taxpayer expense? What support do they need? The bricks and mortar are there, the teachers salaries paid. we spend more than 21 of the 23 countries that kick our butts in international standards. What special treatment do they need? A clear message? If you don;t finish HS, you will be condemned to poverty or a life of crime? You can lead a horse to water… ya can’t make em drink. Sometimes you have to live with the consequences of very bad choices. Are you suggesting this highly unionized, public monopoly is not supporting the students? No kidding! Wonder what the graduation rate of Seattle Lutheran is, O’Dea, Kennedy, Bush School. Prep. 98% or so? What are they doing that public education isn’t doing? It sure isn’t resources…. not by a long shot.
January 12, 2012 at 2:18 am #743225
JoBParticipantkootch..
i am tired of your anger
poverty is not the result of a child’s lifestyle choice
January 12, 2012 at 2:36 am #743226
kootchmanMemberDropping out of school at age 16 is not a child’s choice… it is a bad decision by a young adult. If you can’t reason at 16, with all the evidence around you, and all the public exhortations to go to school, and the overwhelming evidence that dropping out is tantamount to economic suicide… there would be little hope for a fruitful productive life. Why argue to the contrary? That is why public schools are free… bty I am not at all angry… at some point you can’t dismiss every social malady as the “systems” fault”.. go to school, it’s there, take advantage of it. Or not.
January 12, 2012 at 3:01 am #743227
kootchmanMemberBut you do raise a good point… why is the prison population so damn large? And who IS profiting from it? Fact check time.
According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) 2,292,133 adults were incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails at year-end 2009 — about 1% of adults in the U.S. resident population” (wow!!)
Who has a vested interest? Well let’s see…. “It is estimated that 1 in 9 state government employees works in corrections” O m’ gosh JoB did you see that!!!!! Government workers have the largest vested interest!!! Large, unionized correctional government workers benefit the most from incarceration!
What’s the “private take” ? Why it is .08 … 92% of the incarcerated languish under the custody of civil servants.
How many are in private facilities?
The first private prison opened 1984, and today, there are an estimated 165,000 secure beds in the U.S. being managed by the eight largest private corrections providers” 2,150,000 locked up by state workers, 165,000 under private supervision.
Since we now lead the industrialized, oh hell… most of the world including the 3rd world, in incarceration… what does that say about US.
One.. we are the most evil people in the world, deserving of incarceration…. or … we have the most repressive form of government in the world. It’s one or the other. Maybe fewer laws and more freedoms? Could that be it? Could the libertarian view that “if it doesn’t hurt anyone else it shouldn’t be illegal” be right? Nahhh .. we love to make our laws to restrict and prohibit.
The prison industrial complex my fair lady, is pretty much another government run monopoly. I mean 92 per cent direct market share… and at least the majority and controlling interest in the private subsidiaries.
January 12, 2012 at 4:15 am #743228
JanSParticipantKootch..from your post..you said “at some point you can’t dismiss every social malady as the “systems” fault”..actually, we agree quite closely on this. Yes, I know that people have pasts, and what happens in our lives shapes our lives a lot of the time…however…blaming your ineptitude at life on things that purportedly happened when you were a child, saying that the “system” did you dirty, gets to me at times, too. People can stop listening to those old stories in their heads, and move on, learn from life.
I still don’t know why our prisons are so full…maybe the “system” failed them..;-
January 12, 2012 at 4:35 am #743229
kootchmanMemberThere comes a time, when the best message, the ONLY message is an unyielding one. IF you get caught DWI….say… 3 times, you are a pedestrian forever. If you do not complete an approved HS curriculum, you are not going to be eligible for social services, until such time as you do. It is not acceptable citizenship. There are some rules that are just too obvious to ignore.
January 12, 2012 at 5:17 am #743230
redblackParticipantGovernment workers have the largest vested interest!!!
lol.
prisons are one of a few money-making ventures left in this country.
high incarceration = high profit.
it’s that old invisible hand of the free market, you see. “the more activities we make illegal, the more money we can make from incarcerating scofflaws.”
damn, kootch. i thought that even you could see that one.
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