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March 19, 2012 at 4:04 am #750638
mirabileMemberThe Bechdel Test:
1. A movie must have at least two or more named female characters.
…okay. Well, that one’s easy.
(In the land of screenwriting, the number of named characters in your film is important, because it thus means your character is relevant to the plot in some way. Although it may get you your SAG card, the role of NURSE or GIRL IN BIKINI would not be considered a named character.)
2. These two named women must talk to each other in a scene.
…this test is a piece of cake so far, right? I mean, I can think of hundreds of films where two women talk to each other in a scene…
3. …about something besides a guy.
March 19, 2012 at 4:09 am #750639
mirabileMemberThe point is the unfortunate fact that most people either:
a) don’t realize what they’ve been socialized to think;
b) don’t care that they think what they’ve been socialized to think; or
c) are okay with it.
Nobody is ever going to always be “right.” The best we can hope for is “thoughtful”. I don’t want to say “sympathetic” or “understanding” or “empathetic” or any of that bullshit.
The other problem is the one I’m always afraid of, which is that you guys are way ahead of me and I’m just not clued in enough to get it.
I think life (in this context) is pretty simple. It isn’t about men and women. It’s about individuals.
March 19, 2012 at 4:14 am #750640
redblackParticipantEssentially, I want freedom. I don’t want the government making my choices for me. I want to make them myself. I think I can make better choices for my family than a government bureaucrat (or panel) can. But I also understand that a large portion of the population can’t make better choices for themselves, largely because of economics.
see, i think your basic premise is flawed. your automatic default position is that the government is interested in making health care decisions for you.
which is understandable, because that’s what insurance companies do.
So do we have a deal? Remember, this is for the good of the country – not just your own good. If you’re unwilling to give up your Cadillac plan so everyone can have coverage, then you can’t criticize the a**holes at Goldman for refusing to do the same.
LOL. no.
the a-holes at goldman sachs got millions of dollars’ worth of your money. and they were rewarded with cabinet positions. i’m just asking for a low deductible and decent coverage for fsck’s sake.
then, later…
I don’t think the framers of the constitution ever intended an implied right to privacy that somehow includes your ability to terminate a pregnancy.
LOL. yeah, ’cause none of the founding fathers ever accidentally impregnated anyone. and if he did find that one of his slaves was pregnant and had to wonder whether or not the baby was his, he just wanted the mother to carry it to term – so they could be a family.
am i right?
March 19, 2012 at 4:15 am #750641
redblackParticipantChina does it because of population pressures.forced abortions… when will we do it?
probably about 10 years after you… people… outlaw abortion.
man, you guys are funny today.
March 19, 2012 at 4:27 am #750642
jamminjMember“Posting that kinda stuff is comical and makes the left look ever more desperate.”
yes, posting it is comical, but introducing that kind of legislation… just the norm for the right wing.
March 19, 2012 at 6:23 am #750643
JanSParticipantKootch…the term is “asian” not “orientals”
March 19, 2012 at 6:24 am #750644
JanSParticipantand nice to know you’d rather have an ignorant, bigoted idiot for a president…let’s hope to G-d that you don’t get what you wish for..
March 19, 2012 at 7:48 am #750645
dobroParticipant“Women and liberals are always trying to subvert the constitution.”
How can you guys keep talking to an a**h*le that would write that?
March 19, 2012 at 9:43 am #750646
kootchmanMemberMy point.. orientals, asians, etc.. it’s all the pc code, this one you invented this week Jan or an established code?. I don’t think he is bigoted, I think he is too conservative. I haven’t heard an overt bigotry remark. It’s too funny, even speech has to be “just your way”… is there nothing you can’t control? It’s not even on the Wiki list of ethnic slurs! Unless you take it upon yourself to edit it. Asian would include Pakistanis, Yemenis, Saudis, Iraqis, Egyptians, Lebanese, Iranians, Turks, … even Georgians!!!!
http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/asia/
I can’t find a single perjorative in this definition:
1. often Oriental Of or relating to the countries of the Orient or their peoples or cultures; eastern.
2. Oriental of or designating the biogeographic region that includes Asia south of the Himalaya Mountains and the islands of the Malay Archipelago
See that JaN it is a geographic reference. Because if you used “Asian”… you would have to include the entire middle east..and by convention.. they aren’t “Asian” are they?
The best post found elsewhere:
People use words in a harmful manner. That doesn’t make the words themselves malicious, but the context and intention behind them.
We could use any word in a harmful manner, if intended as such. Making use of words commonly associated with prejudice “offensive words” doesn’t eliminate prejudice. All it does is limit usable vocabulary.
Stop using the 1%… now! It’s used with prejudicial intent. You sling the same .. if “intent’ counted… you use your word book, I will use mine. Mine is more accurate.
March 19, 2012 at 9:59 am #750647
kootchmanMemberGoldman Sachs… it was their Obama payback for their campaign support. You keep ignoring that the banking boys loved him… they got over 7 trillion of new, printed money. He was their water boy in the big playoff game. Holder of the spit bucket. All that “corruption” and he still goes to NYC to raise money from them… and not one single DOJ prosecution… not one.
There are 470 counties in the USA that have had unemployment over 20 per cent, AND a poverty rate over twenty per cent, for over twenty years. 70 per cent of them are in red states, majority white populations.
Now we can go through the entire list .. but you should know the roster by heart… all the DOE 38 billion that was shoveled to Obama donor and friends.. like Goldman Sachs, Kaiser @ Solyndra.. Solar One, etc etc etc… All the stimulus went to labor and civil service unions.. payback politics. At least in the Grat Depression, Roosevelt tried to aid the most afflicted with the bulk of the aid. Obama just wanted to shield his base.
Less than 2% went to those other, aforementioned counties. Rural, poor, white. Now based solely on that.. who is the bigoted president? In the great tradition of the First Democrate… Andrew Jackson.. to the victor goes all the spoils? Yea its red country… and we heard him and his opinion of those folks during his campaign last time. He paid off his whales and his “base”…. including Keystone, labor unions, and this fabricated war on women. Sway to and fro … enchanted and waiting for your piece of his pie. Yech.
Yep .. I prefer Romney… but I would vote for ANY candidate … and as the polls show… Obama does not lead any of them by 10 points in the general election except our little hobbit Ron Paul… and is actually behind Romney. Jobs, jobs, jobs… and now escalating inflation with stagnant wages…remember that 7 trillion… that’s the run up in consumer prices, commodities and oil/gas.
I wanna see Obama in a hard hat again! It’s as much an incongruity as Dukakis in an armor helment on a tank. Or even Romney saying y’all ..or cheesey grits. But for job creation and fiscal restoration.. Willard is da man.
March 19, 2012 at 11:15 am #750648
JanSParticipantno, Kootch. asians have long felt that the word “oriental” is a tad wrong.(You can use it for a carpet, but not a person) I didn’t make it up..what world do you live in? It’s a derogatory term…if you want to call it PC, that’s totally up to your little ol’ self. You really do hate being told you’re wrong, don’t you, since you don’t feel you ever are…wow…
March 19, 2012 at 11:34 am #750649
kootchmanMemberoh.. now it is a “tad” wrong… bs … it’s an accurate geocultural reference. Of course if I was a Yemeni I would think being called oriental is wrong.. or asian… it’s not pejorative term. Don’t call me white then… I am a Nordic, Euro, German, Irish, Dutch person… my friends can call me a NEGID….. nothing else will do.
Oriental: Peoples from south of the Himalaya Mountains and the islands of the Malay Archipelago
March 19, 2012 at 11:35 am #750650
JanSParticipant1. from Wikipedia :The adjectival term Oriental has been used by the West to mean cultures, peoples, countries, and goods from the Orient. “Oriental” means generally “eastern”. It is a traditional designation (especially when capitalized) for anything belonging to the Orient or “East” (for Asia), and especially of its Eastern culture. It indicated the eastern direction in historical astronomy, often abbreviated “Ori.”[3] In contemporary English, Oriental usually refers to things from the parts of East Asia traditionally occupied by East Asians and most Central Asians and Southeast Asians racially categorized as “Mongoloid”. This excludes Indians, Arabs, most other West Asian peoples. Because of historical discrimination against Chinese and Japanese, in some parts of the United States, the term is considered derogatory; for example, Washington state prohibits use of the word “Oriental” in legislation and government documentation, preferring the word “Asian” instead.[4]
2.Random House’s Guide to Sensitive Language states that “Other words (e.g., Oriental, colored) are outdated or inaccurate.” It suggests the use of “Asian or more specific designation such as Pacific Islander, Chinese American, [or] Korean”.[8] Merriam-Webster describes the term as “sometimes offensive.”[9]
3.What should you do when the audience member uses an inappropriate term?
As speakers our role is to educate, not intimidate or embarrass, but this does pose a challenging situation. Because I speak on this topic, I let my workshop audiences know that we are all learners (as evidenced by the above example). I tell them that I will share “p.c.” words with them, so they can choose whether or not they will use them. Most diversity collisions are totally accidental, thus with more knowledge we can avoid errors due to ignorance. As the workshop progresses I gently inform folks of less offensive terms. The one that is misused most often is “Oriental” instead of “Asian” when referring to people. Oriental is correct when referring to food, furniture or rugs, not when referring to people.
If diversity is not your area of specialty, I suggest that you find a private moment to give feedback to the “offender.” Remember that the comment was most likely made due to lack of information, and approach him or her with the intention of helping. Most people will react with gratitude.
If we want the cycle of intolerance to stop, we need to be willing to speak up, and give feedback with compassion. Some people might think we are being too picky, but can we afford not to be, if as an association we are setting the standard for the industry?
Let your words be a bridge, not a barrier to the message of your soul, and the telling of your truth. Your audience will remember and appreciate you just that much more. (from an article by Lenora Billings-Harris called Political Correctness and Diversity in Public Speaking.
4.“The world ‘Oriental’ is not inherently negative,” said Frank H. Wu, a law professor at Howard University and the author of “Yellow: Race in America Beyond Black and White” (Basic Books, 2001). While the term oriental has a geographical meaning — eastern — words, especially in a racialized context, carry connotations beyond their literal definitions.
“It’s associated with a time period when Asians had a subordinate status,” Professor Wu said. He said that the term was associated with exoticism and with old stereotypes of geisha girls and emasculated men. “‘Oriental’ is like the word ‘negro.’ It conjures up an era.”
Only in 1952 did the federal government abolish the Asian exclusion acts, dating to the 1880s, that had prohibited many Asian immigrants, even those who immigrated legally, from full citizenship.
“For many Asian Americans, it’s not just this term: It’s about much more,” Professor Wu said. “It’s about your legitimacy to be here.”
So, no I didn’t make it up.
You may consider me a twit, but at least I’m not a jerk..
March 19, 2012 at 11:36 am #750651
JanSParticipantSorry, people…I hate thread jacking..
March 19, 2012 at 1:18 pm #750652
redblackParticipantyou know, the term “politically correct” is usually an excuse for people to be as rude as they see fit. kootch knows it’s not polite, and that it bothers people, but he blames other people’s sensitivity for his being rude.
Stop using the 1%… now! It’s used with prejudicial intent.
because the poor, downtrodden rich people simply have no choice but to be rich. right?
March 19, 2012 at 2:16 pm #750653
JoBParticipantMarch 19, 2012 at 2:20 pm #750654
JoBParticipantkootch
“I haven’t heard an overt bigotry remark. “
you need to get your listening checked
March 19, 2012 at 2:24 pm #750655
JoBParticipantGoldman Sachs?
history kootch.. history.
if it was anyone’s payback for campaign contributions
it was Bush’s..
Has Obama followed with some real stinkers of his own
you betcha!
keeping the Clinton architects of the separation of commercial and investment banking was one of the big ones…
Not insisting on restoring that separation..
another
But the Goldman Sachs debacle is dirt tracked in by the former president
March 19, 2012 at 2:28 pm #750656
JoBParticipantJanS..
What can you expect
from a man who uses Kootchman as his handle
even if HE meant it to refer to something else?
Redblack is right
Shouting PC is just cover for his right to be offensive..
sorta like the whole pamper you do it all to yourselves we are appalled by your behavior thing
March 19, 2012 at 3:04 pm #750657
kootchmanMemberAll we do is limit language. I didn’t use as an historical reference in time or place as Dr. Wu states. You jumped on a code word and you decided for yourself it was derogatory. . Good try.. but it meant exactly what i meant it to.. because if I included “Asians” my stats would have been wrong.. the population data would have been too large. Forget it JoB… if does mean something else as you well know. But, feel free to feel as you feel.
March 19, 2012 at 3:50 pm #750658
MTMParticipantBy gosh, I think you should exercise your “god-given” freedom to call anyone anything you want, anytime you want.
I suggest you eat at an Asian restaurant and call them “Orientals” to their face. You’ll enjoy the service and the food.
Find an Asian barber to cut your hair and call him or her “Oriental” at the time of service. Your hair will look great, I’m sure.
Find an Asian clerk in any store to ring up your bill, an Asian doctor to check your heart, an Asian financial advisor to consult, etc., and call them Oriental to their face. See how friendly your customer service experience will be.
You really want to know how well your thoughts are perceived? Take them to the people who might perceive them as offensive. You’ll know how they feel about it. After all, you don’t want any limits on your words, so please… enjoy the freedom to offend and do so up front and face to face.
Continuing to willfully offend and then on top of that, defend your racist and bigoted outbursts could result in you being considered “white trash” in some circles. I’m sure you wouldn’t mind if you’re referred to by that label. White trash is described in Wikipedia (since we’re quoting that) as “…suggesting lower social class and degraded living standards. The term suggests outcasts from respectable society living on the fringes of the social order who are seen as dangerous because they may be criminal, unpredictable, and without respect for authority whether it be political, legal, or moral.”
March 19, 2012 at 3:57 pm #750659
JoBParticipantkootch..
i know kootchman means something else to you
and you know the other thing it means is an offensive term to women
yet you have never once apologized for unwittingly offending
if i were to define the terms lady and gentlemen
apologies for unwitting offense would be right up there in the top 3 requirements…
Now.. as it happens
i am not accusing you of not being a gentleman
in your off-line life you have never been less than a gentleman to me
ok..if i stretched the term to include a few amusing wink wink remarks..
you have never been less than a gentleman to me
but.. and this lies at the center of the problem with our on-line discussions
you are not gentlemanly at all here.
You seem totally unable .. or perhaps unwilling…
to see when your words or positions have deeply offended others..
in fact.. you make the assertion that if they were offended it is due to a deep flaw in them…
Not so true kootch
and were we speaking face to face you would acknowledge that
March 19, 2012 at 3:59 pm #750660
dyn99ParticipantOkay, people…back on topic. Although this conversation about Asian vs. Oriental is tantalizing, it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the topic at hand.
JoB – you are wrong that the religious right is trying to reduce wages by controlling a woman’s ability to plan her family.
Reducing the number of women in the workforce would cause a drop in unemployment, and would create more demand for male workers, causing their wages to rise.
Plus, do you seriously believe that? That is completely far fetched. They don’t care about your ability to work or your wages. They fundamentally believe that their religious views are what this country was “founded” upon and therefore should be imposed upon any citizen of this country.
They don’t believe in the separation of church and state – they believe the US is a “Christian” nation – but not “Christian” in the biblical sense – as they would define Catholics and Mormons as “non-Christians” despite their shared beliefs in the core issues of Christianity.
It really has nothing to do with your gender. It has to do with their extremist religious views.
March 19, 2012 at 4:33 pm #750661
JVMemberI’m kinda getting a late start on this thread, but just so I can get caught up, which War on Women were we talking about?
The MILLIONS of little girls who are aborted every year in China? (for being girls)
The treatment of BILLIONS of women in the Muslim world?
OR
Were we discussing who should pay the $9 per month for birth control pills?
March 19, 2012 at 4:42 pm #750662
MTMParticipantdyn99, the religious right has factions, just like the Taliban, and therein lies the problem for the Grand ole Party. Santorum is part of the religious right and he bases his faith on the papal fathers in Rome. Romney is a bit more central in his speeches, although he claims to be a big part of the religious right while answering to the Mormon fathers in Salt Lake City. Gingrich seems to answer to any religious person who will believe he has a moral base. They all believe this country was founded on the principles of their religion, which if you delve deeply into the earliest founding American history of the 1700 era, you’ll discover it “ain’t necessarily so.” This country was not founded on Catholic principles, Mormon principles or even Baptist principles. Read the religion of Jefferson, for example. You’ll be amazed.
And if you think this is only about extreme religious views and not gender, look at who runs all those religions that claim to be part of the religious right. Find out how they want to dictate (and legislate) the lives of women in America. And why exactly is it so important for them to try and control how women live their lives?
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