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March 21, 2012 at 11:57 pm #750763
waynsterParticipantKootch that is what you said…you have NO clue on womens health let alone healthcare….. you foot over loads your mouth if you want I’m sure we can look up all those foot prints on you chin…want to see your good tea baggers tuck tail on womens issues read and injoy kootch…“War on Women” — GOP in strategic retreat?
March 22, 2012 at 12:13 am #750764
dyn99ParticipantHere’s the problem, JoB/Kootch:
JoB – you want a $10k/year health plan (providing the cadillac coverage you want) for every man, woman and child in this country.
$10,000 x 315 million people = $3.15 trillion per year.
Last year’s total economic output (GDP) = $15.5 trillion
Last year (2011) tax revenue = $2.5 trillion
Last year’s expenses = $3.8 trillion (~900 billion of that was for Medicare/Medicaid)
Last year’s deficit = $1.3 trillion
You can do the math. This is the equivalent to a family making $50,000 and spending $75,000 in the same year. It might work for a little while, but at some point, it becomes very unsustainable very fast.
Your vision of healthcare would cause Federal spending to go to $6 trillion per year. That’s 39% of GDP.
That would require tax rates in the 30-40% range for working class people, and the wealthy would be having to pay 70-80% of their income in taxes. On ALL their income – none of that deduction/exemption BS.
It flat out can’t happen. That would bankrupt our country in 5 years or less.
So you’re going to have to come up with a way to cut those medical costs to around $3000/year/person. That brings total healthcare spending to $1 trillion/year. Just slightly more than it currently is. Taxes could be raised minimally to deal with that, although the overall tax burden needs to go up by around 50% just to break even currently.
So JoB, the moral of the story is that your vision of America is a bankrupt Country that ends up with healthcare for nobody, because we have a broken economy caused by overtaxation and overinvolvement of the government.
You have two options going forward: Basic healthcare with individuals being responsible for some of the cost paid for by taxpayers and upward mobility in the economy, or better healthcare paid for by taxpayers entirely, and a stagnant economy with no reasonable possibility of upward mobility, job improvement or the ability of an individual to move from a lower income category to a higher income category over time.
So which one do you want – working poverty and healthcare for all, or basic healthcare and the opportunity to make your own life better?
March 22, 2012 at 2:31 am #750765
JVMemberDyn/kootch: That argument makes sense to those of us who understand basic math. That logic eludes those kind-hearted folks on this site who mean well, but never get past stage 1 thinking.
Instead, they say, “everybody is entitled to healthcare, it is my right, and I want somebody else (the evil RICH) to pay for it!”
Then like minded people reinforce their simplistic thought, by typing posts that agree with that logic, giving the false sense of a “consensus solving a problem”.
(This summarizes the past 276 posts on this topic, in case anybody is just catching up.)
March 22, 2012 at 2:37 am #750766
JoBParticipantdyn99..
look up the stats on the percentage of “health care” costs that go to 2nd and 3rd party management systems and profit…
and ask yourself if we cut those out of the equation..
could we do better with what we have?
then ask yourself what would happen if we paid for our public healthcare in the least expensive way possible with preventative care instead of the most expensive way possible delivering health care through emergency critical care?
since everyone else seems to be able to produce much better outcomes for much less money
i am guessing we could too.
March 22, 2012 at 2:38 am #750767
JoBParticipantkootch..
replacing a pilot who is at least learning how to fly with the idiots who put us into the dive in the first place doesn’t seem like a really good idea to me…
March 22, 2012 at 2:41 am #750768
JoBParticipantJV..
do the math
cut out the middle man
cut out the multiple profit centers for every service
cut out the surcharge for delivering indigent health care in the most expensive way possible..
you do the math
it doesn’t take a kind heart to see that we could get a lot more for our dollar
pretty much every other industrialized country in the world does.
March 22, 2012 at 2:42 am #750769
SmittyParticipant“replacing a pilot who is at least learning how to fly with the idiots who put us into the dive in the first place doesn’t seem like a really good idea to me…”
Sincerely,
The 2006 Democrat Congress
March 22, 2012 at 2:44 am #750770
JoBParticipantSmitty..
so now it was the congress’s fault that the Bush administration took the brakes off any semblance of financial market regulation?
Yeah.. you keep repeating that
it won’t make it true
but it sure will make you feel better about the choices you are making
March 22, 2012 at 3:09 am #750771
dyn99ParticipantJo,
Unless this society is willing to pay a primary care doctor $50k/year and a surgeon $100k, then costs won’t drop dramatically.
Or unless you don’t want innovation like MRI machines that cost $1 million to buy.
There isn’t 70 percent profit to cut out. It just doesn’t exist. Pull the 10k forms for a big evil insurance company like United Healthcare.
What do you think their gross profit margin is?
8%
Net margin?
5%
There isn’t 70% to cut.
Welcome to reality. Come up with another solution that works economically without bankrupting our country…
March 22, 2012 at 3:41 am #750772
jamminjMemberso in the same thread we have people arguing against religious persecution for the protection of a fetus, yet in the same breath argue for a pro- profit health care system that denies health care for those most in need.
like I said, GOP, pro-life, only until after birth.
March 22, 2012 at 3:55 am #750773
jamminjMember“There isn’t 70% to cut.”
with a single payer system, there is an automatic 40% cut due to administrative costs.
take away costs of emergency care vs preventive care, another 15% of costs.
Then we add the 42% of adults ages 19 – 64 who are uninsured or underinsured who will pay some premium that they currently don’t pay, another 5% of the costs.
Now we are talking about dealing with 10% that can be dealt with cost control.
Very doable, just depends on your mindset and what your priorities are.
March 22, 2012 at 3:58 am #750774
jamminjMemberObama’s healthcare plan IS flawed, because it keeps in place the for profit insurance companies that are the majority of the cost of our health care system. So yes, let’s repeal Obamacare, and replace it with single payer.
March 22, 2012 at 4:03 am #750775
dyn99ParticipantHey, JamminJ,
Did you read my post about the evil insurance company profit margin?
Did you do the math?
8% – 5% = 3%
3% overhead/administrative costs. Not 40%.
And 5% profit.
You’re dreaming if you think a single payer system would shed anywhere near 70%.
Seriously. Could any one of you socialists learn something about math or economics before running at the mouth?
March 22, 2012 at 4:07 am #750776
jamminjMemberAnd we didn’t even touch the topic of prescription drugs in the United States. We pay the highest cost of drugs than ANY OTHER COUNTRY. Why, because in other countries there are price controls (yes govt intervention), here in the US, we are controlled by the pharmaceutics corps.
Over 10,000,000 us citizens buy drug overseas due to costs. Compete on drug costs and it contributes to further reduce our overall costs.
But the for profit system does not benefit us as individuals or our country.
March 22, 2012 at 4:08 am #750777
jamminjMemberand did you not read my post. administrative costs will be reduced by 40%,hate to burst your bubble on your love of for-profit insurers, but it’s true.
March 22, 2012 at 4:12 am #750778
dyn99ParticipantJamminJ,
You need to go back to elementary school and learn subtraction. 8 percent minus 5 percent does NOT equal 40 percent.
An 8 percent gross margin means that 92 percent of premiums go to pay claims.
You need a calculator. Badly.
March 22, 2012 at 4:25 am #750779
jamminjMemberMore money per person is spent on health care in the USA than in any other nation in the world – that is what our for profit system has brought us. Yet we have less hospital beds per capita, less nurses per capita, and less physicians per capita. As well as less advanced equipment per capita. All at advanced costs to us.
March 22, 2012 at 4:31 am #750780
dyn99ParticipantSo you’ve stopped with the math argument, and now are making inaccurate statements about our inferior technology?
Anything else you can come up with to make people ignore the fact that your desired healthcare system cannot exist economically?
Guess where your single payer system was popularized?
Europe.
Heard any news about Europe’s economy doing anything good lately?
Didn’t think so.
Wanna try again?
March 22, 2012 at 4:41 am #750781
jamminjMember“making inaccurate statements about our inferior technology”
not inferior, but less available per capita.
March 22, 2012 at 4:46 am #750782
jamminjMemberI have no qualms in realizing that fixes need to be made and compromised, but find it ironic that in this thread, where we are to defend those fetuses from govt control, we are giving our control to private corporations to dictate life and death to those who happen to advance beyond the fetus stage. Heaven forbid you are a fetus with a pre-existing condition. Otherwise you don’t get any protection I guess.
March 22, 2012 at 5:05 am #750783
redblackParticipantkootch: re : post 274:
We are trying to pull the plane out of the dive…. but y’all keep spending more and more and more…..
yep.
and we’re going to keep doing it until we break you.
now, how does that feel?
March 22, 2012 at 5:29 am #750784
redblackParticipantWell, who has less abortions than homosexuals?
Life is sacred? Who said so? God? Hey, if you read history, you realize that God is one of the leading causes of death.
We get to choose which forms of life we think are sacred, and we get to kill the rest.
a little topical levity from george carlin.
and many thanks to him for a life’s worth of poignant observations.
i’d like to link some of his work, but, man! he was one foul-mouthed maynard ferguson.
and i don’t want to offend the chiiiildren.
March 22, 2012 at 6:24 am #750785
redblackParticipantdyn99:
Seriously. Could any one of you socialists learn something about math or economics before running at the mouth?
LOL.
could any of you capitalism apologists learn something about governing without making people feel like batteries?
Anything else you can come up with to make people ignore the fact that your desired healthcare system cannot exist economically?
i’d like to ask the same of “dollar” bill mcguire.
we’ve tried his system. it sucks.
March 22, 2012 at 7:50 am #750786
kootchmanMemberWe get to choose which forms of life we think are sacred, and we get to kill the rest.
Chicken McNuggets anyone?
March 22, 2012 at 1:11 pm #750787
redblackParticipantspeaking of chickens…
Why is it that when it’s us it’s an abortion, but when it’s a chicken it’s an omelet?
george carlin
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