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October 10, 2011 at 1:19 am #736245
kootchmanMemberLike I said.. “fairness” is shifty. John Travolata,, good guy, great actor, .. and purported liberal. I happen to not want my old 525 bhp, dual quad, Hemi, Cuda… but I could not get one…they can’t make em’.. I buy into it. Eco pig, death trap, etc… bit John.. John has a personal 727 airliner to buzz around in. It is fair? Dunno. .. his money to spend as he sees fit. He burns more JP 4 in (5?) two hours than all the gasoline you and I will burn in a lifetime. All I can do is make MY choice. Yes, you DO take a pay cut… or face crushing morale problems and loss of productivity. Iacocca took $1 when he got his bail out. Took stock options. Now, when he took $1 for three years… and got his option payoff… is that untrammeled greed? Steve Jobs came back to Apple..for nothing…after the Pepsi kid drove it into the floor.. took his compensation in options. Now, I ask you this,,,and fight with JoB… constantly… we had the purse strings..for the banks.. “we” let them have the cookie jar”.. not to fight the issue over and over and over.. but… the housing bubble was a two headed hydra… there were TWO colluding parties. The politicians were an essential element to the mess… too big to fail, and too big to control. That’s my bottom line. What did they cut for themselves? Worse.. we go trapsing back asking for more…of the same.
October 10, 2011 at 4:51 am #736246
JoBParticipantkootch…
you are asked about the disparity between CEO salaries and workers
and you counter with a tale about a movie star’s excess?
is there any relevancy to that at all?
I don’t see it.
As for unions and democrats representing citizens…
that really is what they do.
they represent their members who happen to be individuals.
which is very different from special interests who represent themselves…
as for that whole housing bubble thing…
your argument was too convoluted for me.
besides.. the bubble was one issue
mortgage fraud another
mortgage fraud…
both by brokers who knowingly submitted altered paperwork to obtain loans
and by mortgage holders who packaged what they knew to be unverified paperwork into top grade securities so they could sell them to an unwitting public.
fraud.
October 10, 2011 at 5:37 am #736247
miwsParticipantYes, TDe’s post rawks!
Also to the point that redblack made regarding everyone not paying their mortgages; sometimes the collective voices taking action and speaking up for what they feel is right, and to protect their own best interest can make a difference.
(And, when possible, having a strong individual voice get the ball rolling is very helpful! ;-) )
Mike
October 10, 2011 at 7:32 am #736248October 10, 2011 at 8:48 am #736249
JanSParticipantOctober 10, 2011 at 9:17 am #736250
kootchmanMemberJohn Travolta is a CEO…JTP Inc…. he owns his own production company….ooops.. sounds like a CEO to me..you are forgetting the party line…”millionaires and their private jets”…. No I suspect you will never get the connection between the housing bust and risks banks took… Fannie said sell em’ and we will buy em’..in fact..Fannie INVENTED credit default swaps. wanna see the tape AGAIN of BHO saying it was a good idea to bury bad risks in with good ones? The market could absorb the loses… geez and it was after…his Bank of America lawsuit…funny how those two are still so tied to the hip… The banks were told to make bad loans..when they balked.. the govt said bring em on… Clinton even signed the derivatives legislation, the now infamous credit default swaps…. when the element of risk was gone…a restraint on banks….and the government gave them a secondary market to sell them in… what did you think would happen? Remember the old saw… banks never lend except to people who don’t have to borrow? You sold cars… if your sales manager said write em all up… we have financing on every customer, we aren’t turning anyone down..if the car loans go bad,..if they wal through the door they are credit worthy…no money down, 110% of MSRP on every car… we will get paid anyway from the federal government.. you’d have crippled hands writing up all the deals. No risk.. no caution. The two amigos in the great rip off… the government and the banks… it was Butch Cassidy AND the Sundance Kid. You never seem to get beyond the banks. Is it too scary for you?
October 10, 2011 at 9:39 am #736251
kootchmanMemberDidn’t read a damn thing … did ya? Read the George Meany quote..
October 10, 2011 at 9:47 am #736252
JanSParticipantquote:” It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.
This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.
As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.
We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.”[2] People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.
Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.
For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.”
FDR..1944
October 10, 2011 at 9:50 am #736253
JanSParticipantKman..you are so right, and everyone else is so wrong.Of course, no one reads everything you write…
we know that you will explain it to us more, since you know everything ..
October 10, 2011 at 9:53 am #736254
kootchmanMemberAch… liberals don’t like to be educated.. they like to be placated.
October 10, 2011 at 11:36 am #736255
JanSParticipantyou, my friend, are not an educator…what a crock !
October 10, 2011 at 12:41 pm #736256
redblackParticipantyeah, kootch. what jan said. i was about to call you out on that, too. it gets you nowhere with me acting like a pedant talking to a simpleton.
you might have grown up like oliver twist and worked your hands to the bone for a bowl of rice a day – or whatever – to eventually make a comfortable living for yourself, but you’re no better or wiser than i am.
October 10, 2011 at 2:47 pm #736257
sydneyMemberHey Kootch, you say unions somehow represent a bloc of people which (implicitly) is a bad thing. Then what is a corporation?
October 10, 2011 at 4:02 pm #736258
BostonmanMemberYou guys have made my Monday morning. Something my dad said to me a while ago. We are the land of equal opportunity, not the land of equal outcome.
October 10, 2011 at 4:20 pm #736259
JiggersMemberStay on target. UW students are going to walk and join protestors this week.
October 10, 2011 at 4:56 pm #736260
BostonmanMemberThey can walk, protest, jump up and down all they want. The fact is if one of those big corporations wanted to hire one of those kids for $50k a year they would take it in a heart beat. The majority of them are likely hypocrits given that. If you are going to protest corporate greed then you shouldn’t be working for them or buying products from them.
I think protests if done correctly with guidance, direction, a simple purpose can be effective. The problem is they are protesting a world wide business practice. They won’t change a thing on the macro level. They need to think on the micro level, baby steps. Come up with a plan to try and change things one at a time. Perhaps start with the tax code. Just getting out there and saying CEO’s make to much money isn’t going to accomplish anything.
October 10, 2011 at 5:01 pm #736261
DBPMemberRe: DBP’s question regarding “equal sacrifice for CEOs,” kootchman said:
Yes, you DO take a pay cut… or face crushing morale problems and loss of productivity. Iacocca took $1 when he got his bail out. Took stock options. Now, when he took $1 for three years… and got his option payoff… is that untrammeled greed?
OK, kootchman. Thanks for answering my question. So you and I agree on the idea of Americans making sacrifices across the board for the good of the country. I think that’s a great starting point for discussion.
Unfortunately, in the brief interval before I could get back to my computer, the discussion seems to have moved on.
Let’s see here. Where do I start . . .
☺ John Travolta (I’m opposed.)
☺ Steve Jobs (I’m in favor.)
☺ Jet fuel (Neutral.)
☺ Bill Clinton (Depends on the meaning of “Bill”)
October 10, 2011 at 5:33 pm #736262
elikapekaParticipantKootchman, you wrote – “I believe Elkipedia threw out the sob of firefighters and police…another advertising fabrication?”
What in the world are you talking about? The only time I’ve mentioned police and firefighters is in the Republican presidential thread. The point I was attempting to make, which you apparently missed entirely, is that after 9/11 they were considered heroes, and ten years later the Republicans are calling them (and other public employees) out as greedy union thugs, which I think is a very bad campaign strategy that will backfire. That is all.
How you get a sob story out of that, and what that has to do with advertising of any kind, is beyond me.
October 10, 2011 at 5:40 pm #736263
TDeParticipantIf corporations started hiring those kids for $50K a year we wouldn’t be having this problem!! But the corporations aren’t hiring, Bostonman… that’s a big part of the problem.
Mega corporations are sitting on trillions of dollars in their coffers and bleeting about how it’s their right to make money, no matter what the cost. The end (making money) always justifys the means (no matter how much suffering it might cause). Ethics be dammed, patriotism be dammed and any social conscience be dammed. Money rules!
And when corporations WERE hiring kids right out of school for $50K a year, those kids weren’t in the streets protesting! Duh!
October 10, 2011 at 6:26 pm #736264
elikapekaParticipantBostonman, of course if they were getting hired at 50K a year they wouldn’t be out there. That’s sort of the point – our political and business systems no longer operate for the general good; they operate to benefit corporate and wealthy interests to the detriment of society in general. Equal opportunity is fading fast, and frustration is growing even faster.
October 10, 2011 at 6:27 pm #736265
BostonmanMemberWhy should they hire someone if they don’t have the work for them to do. Are you suggesting they hire them and have them all sit in an office playing tetris?
My company made a nice profit last year but I am not going to hire someone if I don’t have work for them to do.
October 10, 2011 at 6:32 pm #736266
BostonmanMemberThe only thing they should think about would be paying a dividend to those people you think are already super wealthy. Those people would then claim the dividend on the tax returns and offset the liability with one of the other million items they have and it would result in no taxes either. So who wins?
In this economy if I had excess cash you bet I would sit on it. Especially if I was a bank. You never know when something is going to blindside you nowadays.
October 10, 2011 at 6:51 pm #736267
JanSParticipantSo, Bostonman…are you saying that the line that we get from GOP’ers in congress about give ’em the tax breaks, they’ll be the “job creators” is basically a line of bull? It’s plain to see they’re not creating jobs and they are hanging on to the money – and, well, please clear it up for me…
October 10, 2011 at 7:41 pm #736268
BostonmanMemberWhat I am saying is you can’t artificially create demand or supply. If they don’t have jobs for people to do they won’t create jobs. Of course if they don’t have cash they won’t create jobs also. Its kind of a catch 22. Lets say right now I need to hire 2 people but don’t have the cash to do it. I will suffer through it with no more staff but if I have the cash I will hire them. So these companies are holding onto cash for whatever reason, perhaps they have a good one they haven’t shared.
My post was more meant to provide people a more realistic way to change the system, not saying the system is right or wrong. Sitting around and protesting companies because they have cash and won’t give it away will never work.
Demand will most always preceed supply unless the supply is created to meet a new demand. Companies holding onto cash does not mean there will be demand for the companies supplies but it means if the demand happens they will be able to boost supplies by hiring.
October 10, 2011 at 8:05 pm #736269 -
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