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May 8, 2012 at 2:14 pm #757184
JoBParticipantSpring Chicken..
LOL.. on my way to resettling in the Christian beliefs of my childhood, i did a pretty serious 40+ year study of most of what are considered the world’s religions. If you could see the bookshelf behind me you would see that I haven’t stopped.
If I am suffering from any misconceptions about Eastern religions it isn’t because i don’t understand them or haven’t spent time within them.
i didn’t settle on Christianity because it was the best belief system..
i came back to Christianity because it was the best choice for me…
and even then i have chosen to come back to Christianity churchless.
I have always considered myself a Methodist simply because that is the church in which my heart was baptized.. but this week.. in the wake of their isms I have abandoned even that affiliation.
I find it sad how quickly we can decide that someone else’s statements are based on half baked assumptions when they disagree with our own.
the propensity to condescend to or attack any belief system that we don’t find consistent with our own is troubling to me.
As a nation, we spend far too much time looking for an excuse to be offended lately.. and far too little looking for common ground.
As for my observations about animals.. they come far more from having spent a lifetime with critters than from any particular belief system.
i too gag on those oh so cute religious animal pics.
but i have seen behavior from both the critters in my home and those in the wild that makes me wonder if our belief in our own intellectual superiority as humans doesn’t color how we look at both the intellectual and spiritual life of animals.
just another way of looking at things…
May 8, 2012 at 2:34 pm #757185
JoBParticipantCasaboba,
thank you for that link.
it will linger with me for some time because it perfectly states what i feel about prayer..
who can see the inner recesses of anyone’s heart when they pray?
even evangelical Christians :)
May 8, 2012 at 2:37 pm #757186
JoBParticipantNFiorentini
the fact that some religious leaders preach Politispeak from a pulpit doesn’t mean that every public prayer has a political purpose.
May 8, 2012 at 2:46 pm #757187
JoBParticipantSpring chiken,
“Now that you have become aware that National Prayer Day excludes and denies the religions (or constitutional freedom from religions) of a large subset of Americans”
Whoa Nelly!
it does no such thing!
the organization that the woman who started National Prayer Day promotes does…
but National Prayer Day does not.
it offers the opportunity for anyone who chooses to pray in whatever form they express that prayer to participate.
That you choose not to is your choice…
but to brand those who do choose to participate as exclusionary because you choose not to
is disingenuous at best
and only fosters the prejudice that you cite.
why is anti-christian rhetoric so much more palatable than anti-muslim rhetoric or anti-jew rhetoric or anti- buddist rhetoric or ????
i don’t find any of it palatable.
May 8, 2012 at 3:29 pm #757188
Spring ChickenMemberMy comments are not anti-christian, not anti-muslim, not anti-jew, not anti-buddhist JoB
My comments are anti NATIONAL Prayer Day.
If you believe in prayer, no law can stop you.
If you do not, no law should sanction you.
The President should not give his “stamp of approval” on any one religious practice, including prayer, regardless of how “nice” it may seem to you. Such a Declaration is unnecessary, divisive, and possibly unconstitutional.
May 8, 2012 at 3:46 pm #757189
JoBParticipantSpring Chicken
i couldn’t disagree more
and my disagreement has nothing to do with my personal preference for one of those religious practices or with “nice”.
it has to do with tolerance…
May 8, 2012 at 3:57 pm #757190
Spring ChickenMemberSoooo easy to be “tolerant” of beliefs that match your own, especially when your belief in prayer agrees with the mainstream majority and the government proclamation.
Genuine tolerance takes effort, to accept that there’s another side, to support the rights of religious minorities whose beliefs differ from your own and the majority. Those are the Americans whose rights the First Amendment was designed to protect.
Real tolerance means understanding that many Americans don’t agree with you that prayer is necessary or desirable, nor should it be urged by Presidential decree.
Tolerance means let’s keep government out of religion. If churches want to organize a day for community prayer, nobody’s stopping them. But Presidential Declarations should not be used to urge Americans to practice religious rituals of any form, including group prayer.
May 8, 2012 at 5:17 pm #757191
casabobaMemberU.S. law provides for the declaration of selected public observances by the President of the United States as designated by Congress or by the discretion of the President. Generally the President will provide a statement about the purpose and significance of the observance, and call on the people of the United States to observe the day “with appropriate ceremonies and activities”.
These events are typically to honor or commemorate a public issue or social cause, ethnic group, historic event or noted individual. However, (with several exceptions) there is no requirement that government or business close on these days, and many members of the general public may not be aware that such holidays even exist. Holidays proclaimed in this way may be considered a U.S. “national observance”, but it would be improper to refer to them as a “Federal holiday”.
Many of these observances designated by Congress are authorized by law under Title 36, U.S. Code, in which cases the President is under obligation to issue an annual proclamation.
In addition to annual commemorative events, the President may proclaim a day or period designated for mourning or prayer after the death of noted officials including U.S. Presidents and Chief Justices of the Supreme Court or after major tragic events or disasters with serious casualties.[
Special days recognized by presidential proclamation
January 16: Religious Freedom Day
3rd Monday in January: Martin Luther King Jr. Federal Holiday[2]
3rd Sunday in January: National Sanctity of Human Life Day
various March/April: Education and Sharing Day (based on Hebrew Calendar)
March 25: Greek Independence Day
March 31: Cesar Chavez Day [3]
2nd Thursday in April: National D.A.R.E. Day
April 9: National Former Prisoner of War Recognition Day
April 14: Pan American Day and week
May 1: Loyalty Day
May 1: Law Day, U.S.A.
1st Thursday in May: National Day of Prayer
2nd Sunday in May: Mother’s Day
3rd Friday in May: National Defense Transportation Day and National Transportation Week
May 22: National Maritime Day
last Monday in May: Memorial Day[4]
1st Monday in June: National Child’s Day
June 14: Flag Day and National Flag Week
3rd Sunday in June: Father’s Day
July 27: National Korean War Veterans Armistice Day[5]
last Sunday in July: Parent’s Day
August 16: National Airborne Day
August 26: Women’s Equality Day
weekend before September 11: National Days of Prayer and Remembrance
September 11: Patriot Day
3rd Friday in September National POW/MIA Recognition Day
September 17: Citizenship Day and Constitution Week
4th Monday in September: Family Day
last Sunday in September: Gold Star Mother’s Day
1st Monday in October: Child Health Day
October 6: German-American Day
2nd Monday in October: Columbus Day[6]
October 9: Leif Erikson Day
October 11: General Pulaski Memorial Day
October 15: White Cane Safety Day
October 24: United Nations Day
November 9: World Freedom Day
November 11: Veterans Day[7]
November 15: America Recycles Day
4th Thursday in November: Thanksgiving Day[8]
Friday after Thanksgiving: Native American Heritage Day[9]
December 1: World AIDS Day
December 3: International Day of Persons with Disabilities[10]
December 7: National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day
December 10: Human Rights Day and Human Rights Week
December 15: Bill of Rights Day
December 17: Wright Brothers Day
[edit] Special weeks recognized by presidential proclamation
March 4-10, 2012: National Consumer Protection Week
1st week of March: Save Your Vision Week
3rd week of March: National Poison Prevention Week
last week of April: National Volunteer Week
varies in April: Crime Victims’ Rights Week
last week of April: National Park Week
May 6-12: National Nurses Week proclaimed by Nixon in Feb 1974.
third week of May: World Trade Week
third week of May: National Hurricane Preparedness Week
week prior to Memorial Day: National Safe Boating Week
various in June: National Dairy Goat Awareness Week [1]
third week of July: Captive Nations Week
varies in September: Minority Enterprise Development Week
3rd week of September: National Farm Safety and Health Week
varies in September: National Historically Black Colleges and Universities Week
week of October 9: Fire Prevention Week
week of 2nd Sunday in October: National School Lunch Week
week of 3rd Sunday in October: National Forest Products Week
3rd week in October: National Character Counts Week
week prior to Thanksgiving: National Farm-City Week
week of Thanksgiving: National Family Week
[edit] Special months recognized by presidential proclamation
January: Mentoring Month [2]
January: Stalking Awareness Month [3]
January: Slavery and Human Trafficking Prevention Month [4]
February: American Heart Month
February: Black History Month
March: American Red Cross Month
March: Women’s History Month
March: Irish-American Heritage Month
April: Cancer Control Month
April: National Donate Life Month
April: Prevent Child Abuse Month
April: National Sexual Assault Awareness Month
April: National Financial Literacy Month
May: Older Americans Month
May: Jewish American Heritage Month[11]
May: Asian Pacific American Heritage Month[12]
May: Mental Health Awareness Month
May: National Physical Fitness and Sports Month
May: National Foster Care Month
June: Gay and Lesbian Pride Month
June: Caribbean-American Heritage Month [5] [6] [7]
June: Great Outdoors Month
June: National Oceans Month
June: Black Music Month
September: National Alcohol and Drug Addiction Recovery Month
September: National Ovarian and Prostate Cancer Awareness Month
September: National Wilderness Month
September: National Preparedness Month
September: National Childhood Obesity Awareness Month [8]
September 15–October 15: National Hispanic Heritage Month[13]
October: Italian American Heritage and Culture Month [9]
October: National Breast Cancer Awareness Month
October: National Domestic Violence Awareness Month
October: National Arts & Humanities Month
October: National Disability Employment Awareness Month
October: National Cyber Security Awareness Month
October: National Energy Awareness Month
November: Military Family Month
November: National Hospice Month
November: National Adoption Month
November: National Family Caregivers Month
November: National Alzheimer’s Disease Awareness Month
November: National Diabetes Month
November: National American Indian Heritage Month
December: National Impaired Driving Prevention Month
December: National Critical Infrastructure Protection Month
[edit] Defunct observances
The following observances have been mandated or authorized by Congress or the President, but are no longer proclaimed or observed on a regular basis.
June 14 (1982–1992): Baltic Freedom Day
June 25, 1987: National Catfish Day
Source: Wikipedia
As a fly fisherman, The abolishment of the “National Catfish Day” proclimation in 1987 really pissed me off. 25 years later I still feel the sting. I “share your pain” Spring Chicken, albeit for a different issue.
May 8, 2012 at 5:21 pm #757192
Spring ChickenMemberthat’s a straw man argument, Casa… government may declare holidays, but they should not be condoning religious practices.
(last I looked, catfish are not guaranteed by the Bill of Rights…)
May 8, 2012 at 5:48 pm #757193
DBPMemberSpring Chicken: Thanks for engaging with me on this.
You asked: Who here has talked trash about Hope Lutheran?
You’re right. Nobody here has said anything against Hope Lutheran. And maybe I was off-track there, because, as you say, we’re talking about NPD, and who participates in it, and why.
Isn’t that right?
But what the heck do I know about NPD, anyway? I only went to the dang thing and talked with some of the people there.
Now let’s reflect on what we’ve learned about NPD from others on this forum: people who are apparently already so wise that they needn’t be bothered with trying to learn anything new . . .
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First, there was datamuse, who in post #6 made a clear link between NPD and Shirley Dobson’s “Focus on the Family.”
Then bluebird (#9), picking up the scent, said that she had but one prayer, namely, that Focus on the Family would “STFU.”
Then NFiorentini (#14), said that NPD should instead be called “The National Day of Superstitious Pandering.”
Then dhg (#17), raising the specter of Focus on the Family again, said that they wanted to split gay families and wondered who they would “come for” next (Jews, perhaps?).
Then NF chimed in once more (#30), speculating that perhaps some Christians were too busy beating their children to attend public prayer meetings.
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Well, perhaps that doesn’t count as trash talking in some circles. And even if it is trash talking, these folks were still more on-point than me, huh Spring? They got right to the heart of what NPD is REALLY about. While I got lost in the details of who was there and what they actually said.
[Next up: Why pray?]
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Yes, N, you can take a sun check.
May 8, 2012 at 5:55 pm #757194
casabobaMemberI see your point Spring Chicken. I’m just trying to help you burn less stomach lining… Maybe you could:
1.) Lobby to have “your day” added?
2.) Lobby to have the “Nat’l Day of Prayer” removed (like Nat’l Catfish Day was)?
3.) Rejoice, and find some small solace in the fact that there are still 364 days left with NO religious proclamation connotation?
I’ve got a low-tide coming shortly and need prepare to toss some flies to some hungry sea-run cutthroat trout. Enjoy this fine afternoon!
May 8, 2012 at 6:12 pm #757195
Spring ChickenMemberthanks Casa better go rest your gray matter after this strenuous workout haha
May 8, 2012 at 6:43 pm #757196
datamuseParticipantDBP, I think it’s cool that you went. For myself, I admittedly have a hard time with events like this as they often strike me as having an agenda that doesn’t have much to do with the activity itself. But I don’t have a similar issue with, say, gay pride events, so clearly I’ve got something there to work on. (That said, I stand by my statement that Focus on the Family has done real harm to people I care about. Whether that impacts an event like NDP, or should, is a discussion worth having.)
For the record, I work for a religious institution. A Christian one, even, where prayer is part of many constituents’ daily activities.
May 9, 2012 at 1:51 pm #757197
JoBParticipantSpring Chicken
you wouldn’t be implying that i am tolerant of only those religious practices i engage in … would you?
because that would be a really stupid accusation to make of a woman who has joined friends in religious observations not of her own faith.. this year…
and whose main point was that all religious faiths could make of this day what they chose.
The tar on that brush you are using.. whether you realize it or not.. is your own prejudice.
I am not that person regardless of whether or not you want to believe i am…
and it’s highly likely that if i’m not.. there are others just like me.. or not.. who aren’t either.
datamuse..
i agree that Focus on the Family has done great harm to people we both care about.
but I am unwilling to let Focus on the Family and prayer be synonymous..
and i strongly believe that the only way to prevent that is for those who pray to stick up for the power of prayer to be inclusive.. not exclusive.
I don’t choose to attend prayer events…
but i do choose to encourage prayer
in any form
regardless of whether it is called prayer or not.
May 9, 2012 at 6:40 pm #757198
datamuseParticipantbut I am unwilling to let Focus on the Family and prayer be synonymous..
That’s great, but you seem to be implying that I am, and if so I’d like to know how you got that from my post.
May 9, 2012 at 7:42 pm #757199
DBPMemberdata: I don’t know how you feel about prayer in general, but a reasonable person would conclude that you see a strong connection between Focus on the Family (and all it represents) and National Prayer Day.
A reasonable person would also conclude that, by extension, you felt the same way about the West Seattle gathering — since, after criticizing NPD, you didn’t say anything to the effect that the West Seattle gathering might be an exception.
Consider:
1) The OP announces the NPD gathering in West Seattle.
2) Shortly thereafter you, datamuse, post the following:
The National Day of Prayer is largely organized and promoted by a conservative Christian organization headed by Shirley Dobson.
3) Other people then use your comment linking NPD and Focus on the Family as a jumping-off point to criticize Focus on the Family, NPD, Christians, and public prayer in general.
Now granted, you shouldn’t be taking the heat for others’ lack of manners or intellectual diligence. But I hope you don’t expect us to believe that you had nothing to do with some of the conclusions other people drew about this event, or the nasty stuff they said.
May 9, 2012 at 8:52 pm #757200
datamuseParticipantStill not seeing what that has to do with JoB’s point, DBP.
You’re welcome to believe what you wish, of course.
May 10, 2012 at 1:03 am #757201
JoBParticipantdatamuse..
not at all.
I am simply saying that i have made a conscious decision not to let Focus on the Family or any other group become synonymous with Christianity or prayer in any form.
National Prayer Day is only Focus on the Family day if we let them have it to themselves.
The anti-christian backlash created in reaction to groups like Focus on the Family is tantamount to blaming all Muslims for the actions of extremist terrorists…
and it is playing right into their “our religion is under attack” playbook.
it’s time we separated out the extremist Christian political movement from the religion.
They want to set up a national day for prayer to support bigotry and retribution?
i am going to advocate crowding those airwaves with prayer for tolerance and hope.
It’s the christian thing to do… whether your religion is Christianity or not.
and i sincerely hope that every person who gathered at the statue in West Seattle was doing the same.
I can’t speak for all of them, but I personally know a few who were there doing just that…
regardless of how their motives were interpreted by people who chose to quarterback on the sidelines.
May 10, 2012 at 4:00 am #757202
angelescrestParticipantI think prayer is a personal and private thing. The minute you announce a get together for a public praying session, you’ll have the participants and the non-participants and the resulting separation. This post has become so antagonistic over an activity that, in my opinion, should be held in private.
It should be no one’s business whether you pray or don’t–why bring it up?
May 10, 2012 at 2:28 pm #757203
JoBParticipantangelescrest…
i have struggled with this…
I am the last person i would have ever expected to stand up and speak out for Christianity.
I too believe that one’s religion should be a private affair.
I also believe that one’s sexual orientation should be a private affair… and one’s gender orientation for that matter if it doesn’t happen to coincide with that of your birth… and one’s marital status.. and…
i just don’t think it’s anyone else’s business…
but.. i do think it’s important to stand up for what you believe in.. and in this case i am standing up for tolerance of all belief systems.
I am standing up as a Christian who believes in the right to choice and equal rights for all and who does not believe the only purpose for prayer.. public or otherwise.. is the oppression of others.
I believe that by being silent we have allowed extremist voices on both sides to control the national conversation .. on this issue and too many others.
I am simply not willing to let that happen any longer.
I am as saddened as you that this seems to be a contentious point.
May 11, 2012 at 1:47 am #757204
DBPMemberI’m done defending NPD and attacking it’s critics. From now on, my comments are going to be all about prayer and about my own faith.
Just a quick note about my background before I proceed.
<disclosure>
۩ My grandpa was a smart-alecky atheist married to holy rolling Christian Scientist. My parents are both small-town Methodists, and I was brought up (very luke-warmly) in the Methodist church.
۩ I believe in God. Sometimes I think I’d like to be a Christian. On the other hand, there’s so much I don’t understand and don’t agree with in Christianity, it would never work for me.
۩ Many of my heroes are from the Old Testament. By temperament, I’m somewhat like the old Jew, Tevye, from “Fiddler on the Roof” — in that I see God as someone you can actually have a conversation with.
</disclosure>
May 11, 2012 at 6:10 am #757205
JanSParticipantDBP…I was in church 4 days out of the week up until I was a teenager…I sang in the choir…I taught Sunday school…I played the piano in Sunday school…helped the organist during services when I wasn’t singing…went to church camp, on church retreats. SO WHAT? If I pray or if I don’t it’s my business. I don’t need witnessing from others, nor do I need justification for one’s private beliefs. We all have a history of some sort.
Jesus’ instruction on prayer in Matthew begins this way:
“Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you” (Matthew 6:5-6).
http://bible.org/seriespage/jesus-prayer-matthew-65-15
If someone wants to have a National Prayer Day…let them post it..and let people attend…it’s not up to us to tell anyone that it’s not right…if we don’t agree, then don’t go…live your beliefs – or non-beliefs – it’s that simple.
and what I believe now is my business, and no one else’s…period. I don’t understand why this thread goes on and on.
It’s sort of me posting about National Donor Day. I put it out there, it’s yours to do with whatever you want. Don’t agree? Fine. You don’t go, then…how difficult is that?
May 12, 2012 at 12:16 am #757206
NFiorentiniMemberDBP – I’ve got some time this weekend if you still want that religious debate. I will contend that superstitious belief, which is a synonym for religious faith, is both anti-reason and the most destructive force in America right now. I will demonstrate the correlation between religious observance and the oppression, brutality, and low levels of education that necessarily proceed from faith-over-reason.
I will also contend that the “National Day of Prayer” is really little more than a social conservative pep rally.
Do you want to start a new thread or continue in this one?
May 15, 2012 at 3:13 am #757207
DBPMemberJan . . . It never fails.
Whenever someone mentions God, or religion, or prayer, you can be counted on to drop in and remind us that faith is a personal matter. As if your feelings on the matter somehow precluded everyone else’s right to even discuss it.
Ha-RUMPH!
That we have the right to privacy of conscience is beyond question. However, it does not follow that we are thereby under some obligation not to share our faith (or lack thereof) with others.
And that would include praying in public.
Your opinion is duly noted, however, and if you choose to withdraw from the discussion — because we’re talking about “private” stuff — I’ll understand.
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I understand Jesus’s injunction on public prayer. However, the emphasis there should be on the word “hypocrites,” because, as we know, they were the real problem. Not prayer.
OBTY: There is a serious problem with that passage, too; did you catch it?
—The idea of praying in order to be “rewarded” is repugnant to God. But perhaps something was lost in translation there.
May 15, 2012 at 3:48 am #757208
DBPMemberWhy, my dear NFierno! Whatever could have led you to conclude that I would choose faith over reason — especially when the reasoned choice is always so obvious?
Perhaps you’ve noticed that two reasonable, intelligent people can disagree. What’s that all about, then? Is one of the two just faking it — about being reasonable and intelligent, I mean? Or could it be that not all conclusions can be reached by means of reasoning things out?
Hmm . . .
Well, I suppose you and I might disagree on something and still both be reasonable, intelligent people. Take reason itself, for example.
For my part, I think reason has its limits. But perhaps you think not. Perhaps you think that everything’s been explained by the scientists.
Or perhaps you think everything’s about to be explained by the scientists.
Or perhaps you think it’s just a matter of time until everything will finally be explained by the scientists, and that if we just keep moving down this path of reason, we’ll eventually know everything there is to know.
Is that what you think, N?
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