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May 15, 2012 at 4:00 am #757209
JanSParticipantDBP…I think this comes from someone assuming that I needed to be talked to, that they needed to spread the word to me. I was told in no uncertain terms tht if I wasn’t “born again”, if I didn’t belive what they believed, that I was going straight to hell. Sorry…no one should assume that someone else needs saving. I have nothing against prayer. I have nothing against someone coming on here promoting a meetup for prayer around the statue of liberty. What I have a problem with are those who then come on here and try to tell me and others the way it should be, and how one should feel. I suppose that’s what I was doing, too…but it’s frustrating, as you well know.What someone believes IS personal to them, and it may not be the answer for anyone else.And I feel that it’s not something that one needs to convince someone else of. Just my personal feeling.
I’m sorry you feel like I am someone trying to tell you how to be. I wasn’t, even if it didn’t sound that way. I’m butting out now.
Oh, and your opinion that something was misinterpreted…how do you know that that is not exactly what was said…what makes your version the right one? See? That’s my problem…it’s all interpretation…it doesn’t make yours right and mine wrong…it’s a personal thing…get it?
May 15, 2012 at 2:49 pm #757210
JoBParticipantNFiorentini
“I will contend that superstitious belief, which is a synonym for religious faith, is both anti-reason and the most destructive force in America right now.”
thus spoke NFiorentini?
I am not going to argue that you should embrace religion..
if you choose to.. you will. If not, you won’t.
and i will agree that the politicization of religious belief is a very destructive political force in America right now
but i don’t agree that superstitious belief is synonymous with religious belief any more than prayer is synonymous with the far right political action groups.
Even in Science
when you don’t find any there there
it is always possible you simply haven’t looked in the right place.
May 15, 2012 at 4:46 pm #757211
Spring ChickenMemberJoB one person’s religion is another person’s superstition, it’s all in the definition. That’s why religious freedom is so important! Is there a U.S. Constitution in your bookshelf, too?
It’s disingenuous to claim that you “agree that the politicization of religious belief is a very destructive political force in America right now” when you have advocated on this thread for more politicization, not less! In the form of a government Declaration urging all Americans to participate in a National Day of Prayer. Or do you only oppose politicization when it doesn’t agree with your own beliefs, and all other Americans should simply “don’t ask, don’t tell” on that day?
May 15, 2012 at 6:29 pm #757212
JoBParticipantSpring Chicken
At what point did i advocate for more politicization of religion?
i advocated for taking back the language those who would politicize religion have co-opted as their own and apparently sold to America as having only the meaning they gave it.
I didn’t advocate for a national day of prayer.
I simply suggested that those who offer prayer in any form take advantage of it.
I gotta ask..
if you are into that freedom of speech thing
why that is such a big problem for you?
May 15, 2012 at 6:51 pm #757213
Spring ChickenMemberyour many posts above sure did seem to support the Presidential Declaration of a National Day of Prayer, and if I got that wrong I totally misunderstood :) sorry, lol
May 15, 2012 at 7:20 pm #757214
JoBParticipanti think it’s just fine if the President declares a National day of prayer
our presidents declare all kinds of national days of “this” and “that”..
are you diametrically opposed to all presidential declarations
of “this” day and “that” day
or just this one?
personally, i take advantage of any that suit my fancy..
and pretty much ignore the rest.
you pick one … post a topic and i will gladly ask people to participate..
http://www.holidaysforeveryday.com/calmay12.shtml
for you Spring Chicken
nearly anything
given your sense of humor i though i should throw the qualifier in there ;->
May 25, 2012 at 5:54 am #757215
DBPMemberIn a scene from the 1939 version of “The Hunchback of Notre Dame,” Quasimodo (played by Charles Laughton) snoops in on the prayers of the faithful from one of his innumerable hiding places in the rafters. He’s curious to hear the petitions others have brought before the Master of the house.
Though memory dims, I still recall the gist of this scene.
As he creeps along the beams overhead, Quasimodo hears first one man and then another pleading with God to grant him riches, power, love. Disgusted, he’s about to retreat back to the shadows when he overhears the humble prayer of a peasant child, who asks only that her sick grandmother be healed. Whereupon Quasimodo pauses a moment and reflects that God always hears the prayers we make on behalf of others.
If we could snoop, Quasimodo-style, on the innermost desires of those around us, we would probably discover the same truth that Quasimodo did. Which is this: that whether a man believes in God are no, he is more likely to be concerned with his own well-being than with anything else.
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Myself, I never used to pray. And still don’t. At least, not very much. Not as much as I should, anyway. And not in the way I should.
I usually don’t even consider it unless I’m in an awful fix. And then, as soon as I’m out of the fix . . . Well, you know how that goes.
In my favor, I’ll say that at least I don’t waste my time or God’s asking Him for stuff. Somewhere along the line, I’ve stopped wanting stuff for its own sake anyway. That’s a blessing right there.
I’ll admit there are times when it would be darned convenient if God intervened on my behalf. Maybe He does, for all I know. Whether He does or not, though, I know better than to ask Him to do it. Because if I do I run the risk of (a) proving to myself that there’s no one out there listening, (b) proving to God that I’m an idiot. Or both.
So I’ve decided to play it safe from now on and keep such petitions as I do make to the bare minimum.
I won’t pretend to be as pure of heart as the peasant child in the cathedral, because I’m not. Nor do I wish to be.
Fortunately, it is not a prerequisite.
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May 25, 2012 at 4:11 pm #757216
JoBParticipantDBP..
the reason i posted in the first place is
the mistaken notion
that prayer has become synonymous with greed or discrimination
some prayer has
and unfortunately that kind of prayer is all too publicized..
often by the perpetrators :(
their press doesn’t stop people from all walks of life and all faiths offering their own version of prayer .. not just for themselves.. but often for people they have never seen.
i won’t tell you what or who i pray for
but i will confess that i often pray in public.
May 27, 2012 at 7:03 pm #757217
DBPMemberOh heavens. Is it that time of the week again?
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You know, it’s ironic that I should find myself speaking out on this topic, because, in point of fact, I tend to agree with those commenters who see public prayer as so much canting hypocrisy.
Yes, you heard me right. I agree with them.
. . . with some exceptions, however, the most notable being Lincoln’s second inaugural address, from which I quote at length:
Neither party [North or South] expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. “Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.” If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.”
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
—Note how Lincoln hedges his bets here with regard to what “the Almighty’s purposes” might be.
—Note how he concedes that both sides pray to the same God, and that both believe God to be on their own side and against the other guy.
—And finally, note how Lincoln, while still determined not to attribute specific motives to God, allows the possibility that “He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense [of slavery] came . . . “
Hmm. Punishing the national “offense” of slavery with a bloody civil war. Now doesn’t that just sound like something a just and all-knowing God would do?
Decide for yourself.
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The Second Inaugural reads more like a prayer than a political statement. And yet, there’s more to it than words like “prayer” or “politics” or “history” can hope to convey.
Certainly, it is all those things. But to me, its real value lies in its implication that, while we can’t know God’s purposes — or, indeed, whether there IS a God — we can . . . no . . . we SHOULD live life as if there were some greater purpose to it.
May 28, 2012 at 5:07 am #757218
HMC RichParticipantIs it hypocrisy to ask other like minded people to share similar views with other like minded people? They are not asking people who do not believe to join them, although they would be happy to have them.
Think of it as a prayer Meetup. I must say I meetup up with my fellow Basset Hound owners more than I go to church these days. But I pray every day.
I also empathize with JoB’s thoughts on Religion.
May 28, 2012 at 6:03 am #757219
JanSParticipantno, it’s not hypocrisy to do that, Rich. I had no problem with the OP’s post. It was the subsequent discussion that turned things around a bit. Hey, it was just like someone posting any other kind of meeting…getting together with your dogs, getting together to knit. If you are interested and want to go, the go. If not, hey, go do something else. Others on here made it a problem.
Does it matter to others if one prays or not? It shouldn’t And for those who say they do not pray, I wonder if at some point in their life they lifted their eyes skyward and thought..please, don’t _______ (fill in the blank), or, please , let me pass that test, or whatever…it’s a supplication that might not seem like prayer..but.., yeah, you’re asking some sort of power to help you out… we do it without thinking..
June 3, 2012 at 9:16 pm #757220
DBPMemberThis week’s sermon is only marginally related to the topic of prayer. That’s all right, though. All the best sermons are like that.
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Today I want to look at this question of faith from the question of how it (faith, that is) relates to our moral code? I want to consider whether faith bears any relationship to the doing of good works in the world.
Why just the good works? —’Cuz I’m feeling 50.1% optimistic today. That’s why.
Before we get underway, I should concede that, for the True Believer type of person, terms like “moral code” and “good works” are irrelevant, since for them all that matters is whether you believe the same way they do.
True Believers, you can stop reading right here. This sermon is not for you.
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OK. So let’s suppose there are two people who are devoted to some classic “good work” or other. Helping animals, say.
Person A is motivated by faith in God. This person believes that God wants us to take care of the critters, who can’t speak for themselves.
Person B is an atheist. This person thinks that helping animals is simply the right thing to do, and acts accordingly.
Both people are equally dedicated to their work. Although the motivations are different, the results are the same: they both help animals.
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So if all my assumptions are correct about these two people, what does it prove?
Does it prove that people MUST have faith in order to do what is right? —No. Obviously.
Does it prove that people AREN’T motivated by faith to do what is right? —No. It doesn’t prove that either. Just because B doesn’t need faith as a motivator, doesn’t mean the same is true for A.
Person A claims that she’s motivated by her faith to do what’s right. But, you may be wondering: If she’s a good person at heart, wouldn’t she do the right thing anyway, even if she didn’t have faith in God?
Unfortunately, that’s something we’ll never know, because faith is not something you can neatly add to or subtract from the human equation. When we try to pick it out by itself — to paraphrase John Muir — we find it “hitched to everything else” in the Universe of the human heart.
Which is precisely why I love talking about this stuff. It’s all so . . . um . . . hitched . . . to everything else.
Where was I? Oh yeah . . .
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Ventriloquism!
(No. Hang on. That wasn’t it.)
OK. Here it is . . .
Moral codes.
So um . . . have you ever noticed that all the world-class religions have enough built-in flexibility to let anyone do pretty much whatever they want?
Whoops! What the . . . ?
Better save that one for next Sunday.
I’m still at 50.1%. Don’t want to tip things the other way.
June 4, 2012 at 2:13 am #757221
JanSParticipantand some of those people who profess “faith” can be very immoral..indeed…
June 4, 2012 at 3:34 am #757222
JoBParticipanti don’t think we can talk about faith and politics in the same sentence..
regardless of current press to the contrary
one has nothing to do with the other
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