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September 23, 2008 at 4:27 am #640171
JoBParticipanti personally like pro choice or anti choice.. because that is the real issue here.
September 23, 2008 at 4:29 am #640172
AnonymousInactiveJanS – I don’t think anyone on this thread participated in the hopes of changing any else’s mind.
I think intelligent dialogue about this most controversial topic is fascinating. I’ve learned more in 2 days on this topic than I ever did before.
Why would you try and shut down a decent discussion?
September 23, 2008 at 4:33 am #640173
GenHillOneParticipantcheap shot. not decent. flagged.
September 23, 2008 at 4:33 am #640174
JanSParticipantI think…and remember…it’s an opinion….that while it’s been an interesting discussion, and, yes, interesting discourse is always great, I guess I feel that the same points will just keep going back and forth. But, again, it’s an opinion. You all feel free to carry on :)
September 23, 2008 at 4:35 am #640175
AnonymousInactiveI think my point is being severely misunderstood.
I can understand what RainyDay is referring to. The whole, having children is selfish, period. People just want to make little clones of themselves or little mini-mes. Yes, I can see that idea being selfish.
What I was trying to shed light on is the women that DO NOT plan on or WANT children, but get pregnant anyways (by accident, irresponsibility, etc.) and then go on to have those children. And not just give birth to those children, but step up and raise them to be decent human beings.
How can you possibly call THOSE women selfish?
Sorry that my comment to FullTilt offended, I just couldn’t resist the irony there. And besides, how do you think you would respond if I told you that you were making yourself look like an ass? It’s not a very nice, or decent thing to say to another person.
September 23, 2008 at 4:37 am #640176
CaitParticipantNR – the only point I would make is that in a few of your word choices there is a sense of superiority or preference for women who keep their babies (“terminate that life” “it didn’t fall within their plans”.) I think this forum is too sensitive to portray any kind of preference like that. You can argue the topic of abortions and their legality, but one really can’t make arguments about the women getting them (or not getting them, really.) It’s futile, it’s assumptive and in my opinion rude. I’m not saying you crossed that line yet but you and a few others are getting close…
September 23, 2008 at 4:45 am #640177
AnonymousInactiveI only brought up the issue of the women who choose to have their unplanned children and raise them responsibly as another sect of our society.
There are those who choose to terminate, those who choose to have the children and give them up, those who choose to have the children and cannot take care of them and those who choose to have the children and DO take care of them.
This has nothing to do with “superiority”, only to throw that other option in there that was not being talked about or credited as one of the responsible options.
I will admit, I didn’t like the suggestions that those women who did not plan on getting pregnant locked themselves and their children into a life of poverty and crime. That just is not the case in SO many circumstances. I thought that that should be mentioned (I did not realize I would have to defend that it actually does take place to this extent).
September 23, 2008 at 4:48 am #640178
hammerheadParticipantThis has been fasinating to read. I am VERY PROCHOICE. I have had my tubes tied and my uterus fried to MAKE SURE I never have children. I agree with fulltilt. Fulltilt: Motherhood is selfish. There is no reason to have kids. Really no good reason at all.
I would never give up my rescue work(cats and dogs, as we have seen on the blog and shelters, cats and dogs are given up because of children), having a drink when ever I wanted to. Much less carry on a name sake. Not to mention I just don’t like kids. I was smart in knowing this. Let me tell you people look at me strange when I tell them I am not breeding. I am very selfish and well aware of it. That is why I am not having kids
It is each person moral decision they have to make. Let me make it on their OWN!!!
Protesting, while we have the right, we also have the right to CHOOSE!!
September 23, 2008 at 5:08 am #640179
AnonymousInactiveFullTilt – What, exactly, is it that I said that you consider ignorant or ass-like?
When did I EVER say that having an abortion is selfish?
I’m not understanding where the disconnect is here.
I wanted to point out that, when a woman gets pregnant and has an abortion, that is considered a responsible decision because she was not ready to care for that child (that point had already been established here several times – I never discredited that point). There is also the women who do not want or plan to have kids and get pregnant but decide to have those children and raise them the best that they can. That is also a responsible decision.
To say that one decision is responsible, does not, in effect, mean the other decision is not.
And, in keeping with the spirit of this forum, I would request that, rather than attack me personally, attack my opinions and ideas. Why the need for put-downs?
September 23, 2008 at 5:18 am #640180
FullTiltParticipantWell Newres, this is from page one of eight.
Why is the only resort for that same, selfish, irresponsible woman to terminate the life of her own baby?
Please explain why it should be ok for a person to end the life of an innocent baby (that, otherwise, would have become a child), because they choose to have unprotected sex with people that they never intend to build a life with?
Most women today DO use abortion as birth control. How would you argue that using abortion as your sole method of birth control is not selfish or irresponsible?
September 23, 2008 at 5:32 am #640181
AnonymousInactiveYou are confusing my statements.
I never said that having an abortion is selfish.
You are taking what I DID say and turning it into what you want to believe I said.
I believe the act of NOT using birth control, but using abortion as one’s sole source of birth control, is selfish. I stand by that opinion. That has not been answered, btw. Why is getting an abortion not considered selfish when in that regard?
Also, taking those comments of mine, I don’t feel gives you the right to tell me I’m making an ass of myself. I’m merely posing questions. Why not answer the questions and completely prove my logic wrong rather than resort to attacking me personally? Unless, of course, there is no logical answer to those questions and the only option is resorting to personal attacks.
September 23, 2008 at 5:41 am #640182
FullTiltParticipantLets try this again. I highlighted the areas you need to look at again.
You ask: When did I EVER say that having an abortion is SELFISH?
Why is the only resort for that same, SELFISH, irresponsible woman to terminate the life of her own baby?
Please explain why it should be ok for a person to end the life of an innocent baby (that, otherwise, would have become a child), because they choose to have unprotected sex with people that they never intend to build a life with?
Most women today DO use abortion as birth control. How would you argue that using abortion as your sole method of birth control is not SELFISH or irresponsible?
September 23, 2008 at 5:46 am #640183
TrickParticipantNR,
Do you believe in providing birth control to high school students?
Do you believe in Sex education and preventive birth control methods to Junior high students?
Do you think anyone under 18 should have their parents consent on the decision to have an abortion?
I’m still trying to find out where you stand.
I guess I’m confused, which wouldn’t be the first time.
September 23, 2008 at 6:00 am #640184
WSBKeymasterI’ve just been flagged on this thread and I see about half a dozen violations in just the past page. I need to write two news stories for two sites and am not going to be able to go back through 218 posts until I’m done with those, to figure out if this whole thing fell off the rails a ways back or if this is just an eruption toward the end. Individual users should have the ability to edit their own posts and I would kindly request assistance from anyone who called somebody else a name editing their post to take that out, or else I’ll be deleting all rule-violating posts when I am done in about half an hour. Thanks.
September 23, 2008 at 6:31 am #640185
charlabobParticipantTR, any idea when the “ignore this poster” function will be available?
September 23, 2008 at 8:22 am #640186
WSBKeymasterOur new technical consultant is working with upgrading two different programs (WordPress and bbPress, the latter of which runs the forums), which must be done before we can add the several features I want to add here (ignore/report, also a few NICE enhancements like photos and so on) and I’m not installing the upgrade till I’m sure it’s not going to break the whole site. So I’m not offering any more estimates … this weekend if we’re lucky, later if not. Meantime, I have just read the entire thread and deleted maybe four or five posts along the way. There were some amazing moments here. I don’t think it merits closing because there is still some thought-provoking and relatively civil discussion going on, and I am glad to not have had to delete it because of those amazing moments along the way. In the cup-is-half-full spirit, which is my natural default, I find it rather wondrous that a topic on this discussion can be had with 98% of the posts NOT involving personal insults etc.; there are few more difficult topics IMO – TR
September 23, 2008 at 2:01 pm #640187
beachdrivegirlParticipantThank you FullTil, you have managed to have me in gut laughs two mornings in a row. First being when you try to use the argument that abortions decrease crime rates…i think most that did their research yesterday (or at the very least read the wsb) realized just how very wrong that argument was. Then last night you try the argument that becoming a mother is selfish. We all know that is not the case, do you honestly expect us to fall for that one?? Keep trying.
September 23, 2008 at 2:08 pm #640188
JenVMembergood lord. forget “ignore user” and bring on “ignore thread”! this is just getting stupid now. some of you are for choice, some of you aren’t. no one is going to change anyone’s mind- ever. you can sit on your moral high horse all day long, or sit in the ditch shoving berries into your nose- nothing about this thread moving on from here is any good.
September 23, 2008 at 4:15 pm #640189
RainyDay1235MemberNR: “but using abortion as one’s sole source of birth control, is selfish. ”
I absolutely agree, it’s apalling. However, I still have no right to make decisions about another person’s body.
Bringing a child into this (already overpopulated) world IS a selfish act. Adopting would on the contrary be a selfLESS act, imho. It doesn’t mean you are a BAD person (I think you saw where I was coming from NR), it just that the act is about YOU, not about an as-of-yet-non-existent child.
I hope you weren’t mocking my “saving up for” comment, because I feel that, unlike my friends who are winging it, I’m making sure my husband and I are prepared BEFORE we leap. It’s still a selfish act on my part, but at least I recognize it as such.
Once a child is born, the ongoing parenting can indeed be a very SELFLESS act – if you’re doing it correctly. I respect Parents who raise well-adjusted kids, without the help of goverment handouts or pawning them off on grandma and grandpa. They absolutely get my respect. Toughest job in the world.
I didn’t see any bad comments, maybe they flew over my head? I find it hilarious that this discussion is a lot more civil than the one about ‘read meat’, LOL.
September 23, 2008 at 4:49 pm #640190
JoBParticipantthis just makes me shake my head…
posters who don’t want to be held accountable for their own words crying foul when someone calls their argument asinine… posters who are so busy arguing that it is impossible to get a clear assessment of their position. Posters intentionally misrepresenting other people’s statements until the water is so muddied the topic is lost in the mire…
And yet, among this dung there has been productive conversation.
thanks TR for realizing that and choosing to salvage the thread.
September 23, 2008 at 5:16 pm #640191
AnonymousInactiveFullTilt – Again you have neglected to provide any kind of argument, but instead, are trying to turn something I stated into something that it’s not. When you don’t have an argument, generally the only thing left to do is to attack on a personal level.
Trick – I respect your asking direct questions to get a direct answer. Here are my answers to those questions:
I think sex education should be available to those students whose parents choose for them to take it (at the very earliest, though, middle school). If a parent would rather have that discussion privately with their child, they could. If they would rather a teacher have that discussion with their child, they could.
I believe in making birth control available to high school students.
I believe a young girl, not yet a legal adult, should have their parents consent when choosing to terminate a pregnancy.
I also believe in regulating abortion. I feel that regulation would reduce the amount of abortions that take place.
Again, thank you for giving me an opportunity to express my feelings on all these issues, however, what I feel or where I stand is extremely pointless. As someone said earlier, you are either pro-choice or not. But I think, if anything, this conversation has explored how people can have a myriad of opinions in relation to this issue. I find it extremely interesting.
If you don’t care to explore other people’s thoughts on this topic, I don’t know why you would keep reading the thread.
September 23, 2008 at 5:24 pm #640192
AnonymousInactiveAlso, to RainyDay, I absolutely was not mocking your decision to “save up” for your future child/children.
Again, an extremely commendable decision on your part (in my book). I, personally, wish there were more parents like yourself.
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Much appreciated!:)
September 23, 2008 at 5:26 pm #640193
RainyDay1235MemberNR – please elaborate on ‘regulating abortion. I feel that regulation would reduce the amount of abortions that take place.’
Thanks!
September 23, 2008 at 5:37 pm #640194
AnonymousInactiveWell, for starters, I feel that women under the legal age of “adult” (so, younger than 18) would need a parents consent. Absolutely.
I feel that abortion as a result of rape/incest should be permitted. Absolutely. (However, this one has been argued to only be in the 1% of all abortions that actually do take place).
As far as the rest, I have to say I’m not so sure. I’ve always felt that, although I would not personally have an abortion, I believe other’s should have that option. However, what is discouraging to me is abortion used as birth control.
I realize that birth control methods are not 100% effective, and I truly feel that if your birth control method failed, you should have the right to choose what to do next.
So, that’s the rub. How would you regulate abortion used as birth control? I have no idea. One point to, at least explore, is to make abortion unavailable. Take away the means and the people who rely on abortion as birth control would then have to find alternatives (or they will have illegal, dangerous abortions).
It’s not only an extremely personal and delicate issue to everyone, but there are so many sides to this issue and all the arguments that come with it.
September 23, 2008 at 7:53 pm #640195
JanSParticipantHmm…the age of consent to have sex in WA state is 16…so would that 18 years of age consent thing really work?
Sex education in school…funny thing about that. My daughter attended a “Christian” school in second grade. Her teacher brought up abortion in that second grade class…and it was downhill from there…”Mom, what’s an abortion”. Needless to say, talked with said teacher, who actually thought it was alright to bring it up in the context she did – to second graders!..
I suppose in an ideal word these things wouldn’t happen, women wouldn’t need to use abortion for birth control or any other reason..but we don’t live in that world. I still feel that no one (especially a male person that I do not know) should have jurisdiction over my reproductive organs, or your reproductive organs.
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