abortions

[Cait]

RS – I couldn’t agree more and I can definitely see the fear that would come from my fellow staters not agreeing with my uterine values. That’s why I love Washington! :) Pro-choice, pro-gay rights (to some extent at least) and pretty darn liberal unless your neighbors are mostly livestock. And of course coffee…

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[JoB]

beachdrivegril..

reacting to what is said, rather than what you read into what is read makes for a much more coherent conversation.

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[JoB]

cait..

some would label a fetus a parasite… as it can’t live except in a symbiotic relationship to it’s host :)

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[FullTilt]

Legal drinking age is no where in the constitution. Neither is the use of DDT. There are lots of things that the framers did not put into the constitution that still make it to federal laws.

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[beachdrivegirl]

but the legal drinking age is still maintained by state law more so than federal law.

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[Anonymous]

“reacting to what is said, rather than what you read into what is read makes for a much more coherent conversation.” – JoB

I think it was established that it would be best to leave any personal attacks out of this discussion (it’s such a delicate one) so that intelligent thoughts could be passed among the posters. I think we have been managing quite well in doing just that.

I guess to consider a life form that is growing inside your body a “parasite” makes for a less traumatic reaction to terminating that life. The term “parasite”, however, is not used in regards to the question of the law of abortion.

FullTilt_ I agree with you. That’s a great point.

“However, the constitutionality of individual state enactments of the requirements of the Act on the basis of equal protection and substantive due process have never been tested in a court of law. Some argue that these laws reduce adult citizens between the ages of 18 to 20 to a subordinate and inferior class of beings by denying them the same protections of the law guaranteed to all other adult citizens.” – wikipedia

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[RainyDay1235]

Tonya42>>But I do find it interesting that everyone who is for abortion has already been born…

??

But somewhat to your point, the man who murdered my dear friend earlier this year told the judge recently “I wish I’d never been born”. He had a horrible childhood, and was born before Roe v. Wade. Who knows if his mother HAD the choice – she might have chosen NOT to bring a child into such an environment? Clearly she was not “mother material”. Just a thought….

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[Anonymous]

sidebar…RainyDay, I’m very sorry for the loss of your friend.

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[beachdrivegirl]

JoB,

I was just trying to understand your points. I guess to me your points all have seemed a bit contradictory almost like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and forgetting what you believe. Some of this may be related to the fact that just days ago in the gun thread you talked about how uncredible the book Freakonomics was b/c it disagreed with your opinion. (You never stated one fact to disagree with the book. ) Then today you are defending the book like a Christian would defend the Bible and trying to twist any contradictory argument to discredit the source to the point where you are contracdicting youself. I guess I was just trying to understand what your argument is other than you support abortions.

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[Zenguy]

Tonya, no one is FOR abortion.

I just think the people affected by the situation should be the ones making the choices and everyone else should stay the hell out of it.

I wish the people against abortion would spend half as much time working to prevent unwanted pregnancy…we would not be having this debate I bet.

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[Cait]

I have a friend who actually refers to fetuses as parasites! I find it laughable, but really I think one could make that argument. Ask any woman who is 9 months pregnant in 100 degree weather in August and you may find more support for that argument that you’d think (I used to work at an OB/GYN clinic… those poor ladies…)

And Tonya – if I had not been planned it would have been my mother’s right to do whatever she wanted. I’m lucky but I’m not entitled. Sorry, but that’s truly how I see it.

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[bt23]

Tonya, no one is FOR abortion.

I am for abortion. I think to many people that can not take care of themselves are having children. WAY to many children. It locks them and their children into a life of poverty. You can get all touchy feely if you want, but really it is just a group of cells growing inside a host until birth. Sure it reacts to stimuli. So does my spleen if you poke it. Does not mean that it is its own entity.

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[Anonymous]

“It locks them and their children into a life of poverty.” – bt23

That statement is an extreme generalization. I happen to know several single mothers who did not plan to have children, but did. They are not “locked” into poverty.

I think what is being ignored in this discussion is that there are people who choose NOT to have an abortion and have a wonderful life. These people also provide a wonderful life for their unplanned children. This section of society is not an exception. These are people that chose to give their child life, not to terminate that life because it didn’t fall within their plans. It DOES happen, I know so many of these women besides being one myself.

There are other options. Again, I have no personal agenda with regard to abortion, but I hate to see another responsible decision (or alternate choice) that so many women have made be completely ignored. I think the choice of having that unplanned child and raising that child well (stepping up to the plate, if you will) is a very hard choice. It’s a choice that probably thousands of women make each year and it is commendable to those who are successful and raise wonderful children, IMO.

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[Cait]

Just once I would like to hear about these women that choose to have unplanned babies without them being deified and characterizing those who don’t as being, in essence, “baby killers”. One could make that point withOUT adding the saint/sinner qualifications at the end – but I hardly ever find examples. What is being ignored is that everyone has a different opinion about when life starts.

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[bt23]

That statement is an extreme generalization.

Well yeah. I can not tell the story of every poverty stricken mother who did or did not have an abortion. Your friend is the exception though not the rule. Just because you can parade around a person who got out of their social class means that everyone else will or is able to. Adding a baby to a girl when she is fourteen is drastically reducing her chances of rising above the poverty line. The repugs like that though. Someone has to clean their houses.

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[villagegreen]

NR – you used a variation of the word ‘choice’ 6 times in your post. Sounds like you’re in favor of individuals making their own personal choice in these matters. No one should ever be vilified for the choice they make, but it is offensive to push one’s choice onto others.

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[Cait]

NR, I thought you were pro-choice, yes? Not that it’s any of my business personally but I thought you said this on a different post in village may not have caught it or misinterpreted? I cringe to suggest it to you, but it sounds like you and Obama have a similar stance (stepping slowly backwards): personally against it but politically lenient? I share that view for the most part, btw.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

the argument that i wasn’t impressed with a book.. therefore i disagree with everything in the book is a poor argument full of judgments and assumptions.

I didn’t defend the book, i simply defended the common sense aspect of that one argument… and pointed out that it was not unreasonable to assume that the availability of abortions had in fact impacted the crime rate.

the only contradictions where in misrepresentations of what i actually said.

On a broader note, I am consistent in what i believe. I am pro choice. period. no qualifications.

I am pro choice primarily for a couple of reasons…

first because i believe that no-one has the right to make that decision for anyone else and then expect them to be held responsible for the consequences of that decision.

second… because i have seen the social consequences of banning abortions and the social benefit when abortion was legally available.

but i am sure there are other reasons as well.

I am a walking contradiction if you choose to look at what i have done simplistically. I chose not to abort, yet i paid for at least 3 abortions and accompanied more women than i care to remember… and every single one of those still bothers me.

Although that may look like a contradiction .. it is consistently pro choice.

had i known you when you made your choice… i would have personally disagreed with the speed with which you made your choice … but, i would have supported your right to make that choice and resolve it as quickly as you could and would have done anything i could to support you.

Because that’s what living pro choice means. Supporting someone else’s right to make the decision even though theirs is not the decision you would have made.

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[RainyDay1235]

JT – thank you.

NewResident had asked “Are you suggesting that a woman who does not plan to have a child, yet decides to have that child and raises it is “selfish”? And you are arguing this against the decision of killing a child (or denying a child life) as being NOT selfish?”

Honestly, I think both acts are selfish. To procreate is, I believe, a selfish act. One I hope to engage in one day (I’ve been saving for 2 years!). And yes, terminating a pregnancy is a selfish act – but sometimes, it’s the responsible choice as well. In your previous post you had focused on women who might not be emotionally or financially ready…and I stand by what I wrote, “I honor a woman’s right to have a child even if she’s not prepared b/c it’s HER body, but thank her? I think not.”

bt23 – I see your point too. There is a great bumper sticker out there, “6 billion miracles is enough”. I swear, I love kids. Taught for 8 years and tutor weekly to youth now, but that one really hits the spot when you’re stuck in Seattle traffic, LOL.

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[Anonymous]

Hmmmm… ok, I can see that my point falls on deaf ears (or closed minds, I’m not sure which), but I know that my daughter thanks me everyday for having her, in her own way. That’s enough for me.

To suggest that a woman who chooses to have the child she did not plan for as “selfish” just blows my mind. But, to each his own, I guess (and, btw, it’s very possible that once you have your own child that you are “saving up for”, you will realize what I am talking about).

Cait – I guess you could assume that I am similar to Obama in my opinions of abortion. I really don’t care what people choose to do with their own bodies (they are the ones that have to deal with that morally), but I feel that it has gotten really out of hand. I believe that abortion is being far too often used as birth control and regulation of abortions would be beneficial. Which, in answer to Zenguy, seems like a pretty good start on getting unwanted pregnancies to be less of an issue. Take away their method of birth control and maybe they will find another way.

Obama’s direct quote on abortion, however, I do not agree with (too religious for me):

“One of the things that I’ve always said is that abortion is a deeply moral issue. And those who would deny that there is a moral component to it I think are wrong. The reason that I make a decision to support the choice position is not because I don’t think it’s a moral issue but because I trust women to make a prayerful decision about this issue.”

Nov. 7, 2007 Barack Obama

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[Anonymous]

Also, Cait, because I give more credit to the woman who steps up and takes on this enormous responsibility of making their life, all of a sudden, about someone else and NOT them self, does not mean, in any shape or form, that I believe a woman who does have an abortion is a “baby killer”.

To suggest that is really making a stretch and quite an assumption.

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[Anonymous]

FullTilt – I’d be very careful telling anyone they “look like an ass” on this forum…..

Btw, I’m sure your statements about children not being necessary in todays day and age made all those parents who bring their children to your ice cream shop feel really good! :)

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[JanS]

NR.. Obama’s statement is how he personally feels. He has separated the political form the personal. I think there’s nothing wrong with that.

To the people on here who have had abortions, and regret it, I am deeply sorry. To the women on here who have given up their babies for adoption because they knew it was the right thing to do, but still regret it, I am deeply sorry. To the women on here who got pregnant but weren’t ready for children (birth control doens’t always work, huh), but kept and raised their children, that’s wonderful for you and your child. All of these were CHOICES….and I’m glad that you all had those CHOICES (unless, of course it was before Roe vs. Wade – the choices were harder then). Why, why would you want to take those CHOICES that you had, and still have, away from future generations of women? Who are you to presume to know what’s better for them than they do? I think this whole argument needs to be labelled Pro-choice, and Anti-choice. I doubt that any woman thinks that abortion is wonderful. It’s not. Those of us who are pro-choice are not necessarily pro-abortion. Those who call themselves “anti-abortion” are not necessarily “anti-choice”. We simply want to have the choice over our uterus, and what goes on there.( And, NR, while not you or, hopefully, anyone on here, there are many, many people who think that a woman having an abortion is a “baby killer”, and think nothing of telling them to their face. How sad is that, while that woman is making probably one of the toughest decisions of her life).

This will never be settled here. Isn’t it wonderful that we’re not all alike in every way?

post # 202 in this thread…and I bet no one’s mind has been changed one iota…maybe it’s time to let it die, and agree to disagree.

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[JanS]

and an opinion…bringing someone’s business into the fray is below the belt, and shouldn’t be happening…again…an OPINION…

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[Trick]

I think dragging one’s business in this is a cheap shot.

I understand what he meant, and if you give reasons for having children, it does come down to selfish reasons, like it or not.

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