abortions

[beachdrivegirl]

Since the topic of abortions have not only thread jacked the thread in regards to tonight’s protest but also the Rossi vs Gregoire thread I think it is time we give it its own thread.

I find it interesting that people assume you have to be on one extreme or another when it comes to an abortion. Personally, I am only pro-choice in the instances of rape, incest, or if it is a medical reason.

However, most of the information that I have found suggests that abortions are not being performed for those reasons. In fact, 75% of women who had an abortion say that they are having an abortion b/c a baby would interfere with work, school, or social responsibilities. And another 50% did not want to be a single parent or were having problems with their partner.

I have also seen people question the fact as to whether or not women are having abortions for birth control. Do you realize that a recent study found that 46% of women who had an abortion did not use contraception during the month they became pregnant???? 8% of those same women had never used birth control.

http://www.contracept.org/abortifacient.php

I agree when abortions became legal there was a reason but we are passed that point now. Throughout the past 25 years women have become so comfortable with abortions and how accepted that they are that there are more than five times the number of abortions performed today than in the early 80’s. Personally, that disgusts me.

I get even more disgusted when I hear people advocating for late-term abortions. Although, it is not proven whether or not an embryo can feel pain. It is scientifically proven that a fetus can. And a late term abortion is performed on a fetus not an embryo.

I am a women and I am proud that I am a supporter of regulated abortions. I want to protect the younger generation of women’s wombs and psychological well being.

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[Anonymous]

BDG – Thank you for that post. I think you made your point extremely well.

I, too, am a woman and I am proud to support regulated abortions. I feel that it has gotten extremely out of hand, as your statistics indicate.

I also have a problem with the argument of sex education being the root of this problem. How many teenagers or young women do you know that do NOT understand that unprotected sex leads to pregnancy?

I feel that abortions are far too often used as a “way out”. A way to dodge responsibility. That disgusts me too.

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[JoB]

sorry.. i must have been typing when you posted…

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[JoB]

Beachdrivegirl…

so let’s get this straight..

do you think women who become pregnant should be forced to have and/or raise their child even if that is not in their own best interests or in the best interests of the child?

after all, whose responsibility will it be?

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[JoB]

New Resident…

Do you really believe that if a woman becomes pregnant and is not in a position to raise her child in a responsible way that she is shirking her responsibility by choosing not to have the child?

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[JoB]

this was my post on another thread in response to a query from Dave as to whether we would join him this weekend in protesting at an unnamed abortion clinic this weekend since we were opposed to causing children pain and he asserts that the fetus is caused pain in an abortion..

as a side not.. i did ask if there are abortion clinics in west seattle… and have received one reply to the negative..

what i said..

“i will ask you the same questions that i ask every person i encounter who talks to me about opposing the right of choice for women.

what are you personally doing to help prevent unwanted pregnancies and what are you personally doing to help improve the living conditions for children who are not lucky enough to be born to financially stable committed parents?

I have earned the right to ask by living what i believe…

i try to help young women.. even those who don’t belong to my family… to learn how to make positive choices for themselves that include not having children they can’t support financially or emotionally.

I try to do whatever i can to encourage and support young mothers who have children in less than ideal circumstances to make better choices for themselves and to teach their children to make better choices.

I give money to local agencies that help women and children to the slim chance at bettering themselves.

I quietly help financially support individuals through crisis when i can.

I speak up for providing adequate nutrition, education and resources for all children.. not just those who are privileged.

And.. i made the hard personal choice to have a child and give it up.. and have lived the consequences of that choice.. paying a price that far exceeds nine months of gestation.

Unless your commitment to living children is a strong as your commitment to the unborn…

it is a bit hypocritical to protest abortion on the basis of the possible pain a fetus incurs.

If your real opposition is religious..

i would remind you that you enjoy the right to choose your own religion and to practice your beliefs … a right guaranteed by the constitution.

but the same constitution guarantees the right of all citizens to pursue their own individual religious beliefs and/or moral beliefs which may or may not agree with yours.

As long as no law is broken, each of us has the right to make our own decisions.. and that includes the right of women to make their own individual decisions about the possible child they will be held personally responsible for without the interference of the state… and that right is protected by law.

I ask why your right to promote your personal beliefs is more important than that woman’s right to make decisions about what is best for her and her family.

If you are not willing to take personal responsibility for all children who are born… wanted or unwanted … if you do not advocate and vote to pay for collective responsibility for those children whose mothers may not be able to adequately provide for them…

then what gives you the right to demand that someone else carry that burden for you?

The right to life does not begin in the womb and end at birth.. neither should concern for the children who result from that philosophy. “

i have to go do other things now…

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[Anonymous]

Why should a woman who “becomes” (which I love that description, btw. It couldn’t possibly be that this same woman made destructive, selfish decisions that put her in that predicament) give her child up to a family that WILL care for that baby?

Do you realize how difficult it is to adopt a child here in America? The wait lists? American citizens that want, more than anything, to raise children have to wait years for a child to become available. This is part of why so many American’s adopt from other countries.

Why is the only resort for that same, selfish, irresponsible woman to terminate the life of her own baby? It’s not.

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[RS]

This is what I posted in JoB’s thread. It was specifically about protesting. I have no desire to rehash all the other elements of the debate.

There is a clinic here. Down near the Safeway. As someone who used to work at a similar clinic, I definitely don’t think it is appropriate for people to protest outside of a clinic, but as a believer in free speech, I support their right to do so, within the limits of the law. Anyone know if WA has a buffer zone law? We had one in Mass, but we’d also been targeted by some homicidal crazies…

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[Anonymous]

JoB – To answer your above question, yes.

Please explain why it should be ok for a person to end the life of an innocent baby (that, otherwise, would have become a child), because they choose to have unprotected sex with people that they never intend to build a life with?

Btw, where exactly does it say anything in the constitution about abortion?

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[JoB]

Whew.. that is a lot of judgments in a row…

some selfish, irresponsible woman?

so women who choose abortions are selfish irresponsible women?

perhaps they are women whose birth control failed.. all birth control methods have failure rates..

but if keeping your knees together is your only form of birth control.. pregnancy is a sure indication that it failed…

i would propose that women who choose to go through with pregnancy and give birth to children that they can’t support financially or emotionally are behaving irresponsibly.

And i would also suggest that the time for us to force women to produce children for other people to adopt is when our own foster system is empty of children…

and that will be a long long time from now.

People choose to adopt internationally because they want a perfect little baby.. or because they don’t qualify to adopt under US standards… not because they want children and there are no children to adopt.

***

and.. i am informed there is an abortion clinic in West Seattle..

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[JimmyG]

IMO you can’t be pro-choice and then put limits on the how, when, and why a woman can exercise that choice.

I am vehemently, rabidly pro-choice.

On demand, at any time in a pregnancy, for any reason.

It is no one’s business except my health provider and me the choice I make regarding having an abortion or not.

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[JoB]

New resident..

abortion isn’t in the constitution… and i am quite sure i never implied it was..

the right of government to interfere in reproductive rights.. which by the way included sterilization as well as abortion… is what Roe Vs Wade was all about… and is in our body of law.

And there are many reasons women get pregnant and choose to end the pregnancy than having willing sex with an uncommitted partner.

but.. none of those reasons quite stirs up indignation the way the one reason you focus on does..

and moral indignation is the real point here.. isn’t it.

your moral indignation Vs their lifetime responsibility for a child they give birth to…

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[beachdrivegirl]

I believe that women should give there baby up for adoption if they feel that they can not care for their child. However, I am also an advicate for low income housing and poverty stricken families as well. So that they can feel comfortable that they can afford to have a child and not be forced into abortion.

I find it interesting also that 31% of women who have had an abortion state that they would have done it differently if they had it to do all over again. Furthermore, studies have shown that 60% of women whom have had abortions (in this same study) show emotional distress after an abortion. in addition 70% of this 60% stated that they would NEVER have an abortion again.

It is very interesting to me that these statistics arent spoken about more.

And Jimmy G. you cant be pro-life either… so where does that put people like me???

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[Anonymous]

That is a judgment, but it is a judgment, or conclusion, based on statistics.

Most women today DO use abortion as birth control. How would you argue that using abortion as your sole method of birth control is not selfish or irresponsible?

The argument of faulty contraception and rape/incest is far too weak an argument as supported by the statistics, so I feel the root problem is irresponsibility and I am curious how one would defend that.

And the comment of “keeping your knees together” as one’s only form of birth control is irrelevant. No one is suggesting that here. The point is that there is birth control available (in so many new and advanced forms now), that to use abortion as birth control should be completely unacceptable in today’s day and age.

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[RS]

NR, I’m not sure if you’re trying to make a point in your last sentence or if you genuinely want to know more about constitutional law.

Roe v. Wade is based on the concept of a right to privacy. That right is not explicitly granted in the constitution but rather is extrapolated from rights guaranteed in amendments, which is how much constitutional case law has developed.

In the case of Roe, and other cases like Griswold v. Connecticut (right to buy contraception), Loving v. Virginia (interracial marriage), Lawrence v. Texas (sodomy), the court has determined a right to privacy emanating from other constitutional protections, mostly the due process clauses of the 14th amendment as well as the basic protections of the first amendment.

I find constitutional law fascinating (can ya tell?) and highly recommend reading up on it if you are interested.

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[JimmyG]

New Resident I defend your statement about irresponsibility by reminding you that there is no law against being irresponsible.

There is no law that forces me to use birth control.

And abortion is a legal medical procedure that just like any other medical procedure, I can choose to have or not.

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[datamuse]

You know, I just read the study that is the source of some of the statistics beachdrivegirl cited in her post. (Citation of the study: Finer LB et al., Reasons U.S. women have abortions: quantitative and qualitative perspectives, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2005, 37(3):110–118.)

Here are a couple of quotes from that study that didn’t make it onto contracept.org:

“Financial difficulties included the absence of

support from the father of either the current pregnancy or the woman’s other children, anticipating not being able to continue working or to find work while pregnant or caring for a newborn, not having the resources to support a child whose conception was not planned and lacking health insurance. Respondents who gave financial reasons for having an abortion frequently reported feeling stressed and strained to the limit of their current resources.” (p. 115)

(N.B. Lacking health insurance may be key to why some of these women aren’t using contraception, though this study doesn’t go into that.)

“More than half of the women in the qualitative sample cited concerns about their relationship or single motherhood as a reason to end the pregnancy. Relationship problems included the partner’s drinking, physical abuse, unfaithfulness, unreliability, immaturity and absence (often due to incarceration or responsibilities to his other children).

Many of these women were disappointed because their partner had reacted to the pregnancy by denying paternity, breaking off communication with them or saying that they did not want a child.” (p. 116)

“t is notable that the women in our survey emphasized their conscious examination of the moral aspects of their decisions. Although some described abortion as sinful and wrong, many of those same women, and others, described the indiscriminate bearing of children as a sin, and their abortion as “the right thing” and “a responsible choice.” Respondents often acknowledged the complexity of the decision, and described an intense and difficult process of

deciding to have an abortion, which took into account the moral weight of their responsibilities to their families, themselves and children they might have in the future.” (p. 118)

beachdrivegirl, I understand that you don’t consider financial hardship or being a single parent justifiable reasons for having an abortion. I mention them because they are part of the study quoted on the site you linked to, and something I always teach my students about data is to be aware of the context in which that data is gathered and published.

I don’t consider this a binary issue that can be decided solely by looking at statistics. These are women, not statistics, and reducing them to numbers leads to the kinds of judgments I’m seeing here.

My thinking is: women are going to have abortions whether they’re legal or not, and the poorer you are (which is germane because most of the women who have abortions are lower income), the less likely you’ll be able to have one safely.

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[marianne]

If you do not approve of abortion, DON’T HAVE ONE.

And mind your own business when it comes to other people’s bodies.

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[Caduceus]

Stastics are no more reliable than poltical polls. Using them as the base of your arguement isn’t going to convince anyone.

It isn’t a matter of what biased polling, surveying or statiscs imply that the women of our society’s outlook are, it’s a matter of

Do women have the right to govern what happens with their body or not?

And yes an embryo or fetus is part of a woman’s body.

Late-term pregnancies are a little “eh” in my opinion as I don’t see why the woman would let the pregnancy continue that long if she wants to abort in the first place.

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[angelescrest]

Personal: you said it. It’s a personal choice. How dare you try to tell someone else what to do with her body. There’s no justification necessary.

Why did this post begin anyway? So you could tell us how you feel? Great, that you have such strong conviction(s), but what right do you think you have to decide for someone else. Abortion is personal and private…I’d rather see it where it belongs: confidential.

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[JimmyG]

I agree angelscrest that it is a very personal thing.

But to keep it confidential puts shame into the equation.

And we shouldn’t have to feel shame for choosing to have a legal medical procedure done.

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[Sue]

Caduceus, the sister of a friend of mine chose to have to have a late-term abortion at 7 months. Her pregnancy (her first) was going very well and the baby was very much wanted by her and her husband. However, something happened around that time and they determined that the baby had died from a birth defect they had not anticipated. Her choice was to carry a dead baby for 2 more months and then deliver it, or find a place to have a late-term abortion. She had to travel 1,000 miles to get that abortion as it was illegal in most places near her. There were other couples in her situation there, they received counselling and had support groups to deal with their grief. It certainly wasn’t an easy decision and not done without any thought.

My point is, it’s not always someone just waiting until the last minute to make a decision, or living in denial.

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[angelescrest]

Do you think it puts shame? I’m thinking that any legal, medical procedure is personal and confidential.

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[Franci]

NR,

You said…

“Most women today DO use abortion as birth control. How would you argue that using abortion as your sole method of birth control is not selfish or irresponsible?”

I would argue that MOST women today do NOT use abortion as a method of birth control. You would see far higher numbers of abortions if most women were using that method of birth control.

For the record I am pro-choice.

Abortion is a life changing decision on many, many levels. It is not a choice I would make for myself – however I do not believe that I have the right to decide that for anybody else for any reason.

It is a deeply personal choice, and yes there are repercussions. As there are with many difficult choices presented to us throughout our lives.

Maybe someone can come up with the statistics for the number of women who are NOT dying due to botched backroom abortions. That was the reality – prior to Roe -vs- Wade.

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[angelescrest]

You make the point so well, Franci.

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