57 Replies to "FOLLOWUP: City Council OKs surveillance-camera project, including studying possible future Alki/Harbor use"

• Joshua October 8, 2024 (9:38 pm)

  I just love how the guy who thinks concrete lane dividers to prevent unsafe driving are oppressive and a devils gambit but somehow installing government controlled spy cameras is somehow the role of city government. 

  • 1994 October 8, 2024 (10:46 pm)

    Privacy is a thing of the past. Cameras are everywhere already. I saw a video here on the WSB showing the street in front of home. I walk that street frequently. Little did I know I am probably recorded every single time I walk past that home. Privacy is a thing of the past. Bring on the cameras  because they can help identify people who are engaged in criminal behaviors. Big tech already does lots of spying on all those who use a smart phone or computer.

  • Johnny Stulic October 8, 2024 (11:06 pm)

    They’re hardly “spy” cameras if they’re visible and conspicuous, are they, so let’s dispense with the histrionics, shall we? All of you crying about the invasion of privacy out there in the open consistently fail to explain how your privacy is preserved when you walk around among other people. Are you wearing disguises? Masks? Invisibility cloaks?
    And finally, the role of the city government is, among other things, to protect the public from crime (a radical idea considering the priorities of some previous City Council members, some of whom are now doing their best to re-elect Trump, figuring they’re done destroying Seattle, so might as well destroy the whole country – dream big or go home). If the CCTV helps in that respect, they should be on every corner. There is no such thing as privacy once you step outside.

• Delridge Dan October 8, 2024 (10:13 pm)

  This is a great start. Hopefully, they approve legislation to get cameras to Alki soon. These cameras can help with deterrence and hopefully provide a live feed to gain an upper hand in high activity areas such as Alki. 

• Eric 43 October 8, 2024 (11:31 pm)

  Cameras aren’t the answer putting more police on patrol during the summer and harsher punishments and fines had a friend who rented the place right next to El chupacabra right in front of the police only parking zone and in the summers we saw countless speeding through crosswalks almost running over people teenagers drinking in public and where were the cops nowhere in sight we would ask the cops what’s going on why isn’t there enough cops here in the summer to patrol and they give us the same spiel we don’t have enough officers on the force patrol all the parks this was 7 years ago
  so until we fix our police department which is broke and get more officers hired on and get some trust back into the police department if that doesn’t happen soon we will just have another summer of alki having shootings I’m born and raised 43 years The shootings have gotten worse and how’s Rob saka going to fix this put in more speed bumps That’s what he did when the first shooting happened this summer on alki we got more speed bumps non-existent solution to a non-existent problem at the time 

  • Eddie October 9, 2024 (3:05 am)

    The little dot you often see in written material ( ” . ” ) is used to denote the completion of a sentence. It can be helpful in communicating.

  • Seattlite October 9, 2024 (7:52 am)

    Eric 43:  Your comment is right on target.  Nothing will be fixed until common sense candidates run for office.  Until that happens, Seattle will remain as is which is not a good thing for citizens’ safety.

  • neighbor October 9, 2024 (8:07 am)

    I think most of us agree that we need more officers. This doesn’t change that- it’s not either/or. The fact of the matter is that there aren’t enough people wanting to be police officers, and even if that changes it will take a long time to get them trained and out there. In the meantime, any available tool that helps keep an eye on things and potentially deploy officers faster is a positive, isn’t it?

    • Seattlite October 9, 2024 (11:58 am)

      The real question is:  Why don’t men and women want to apply for police officer jobs in Seattle?  Other cities, counties have no problem with recruiting, training police officers.  However, Seattle does:  Why?

      • WSB October 9, 2024 (12:36 pm)

        Actually, other cities and jurisdictions do. You can find numerous references online. For starters, search Google News for “police recruiting” – where this TV link was one of multiple stories from multiple jurisdictions. (Anecdotally, last year while traveling in California, we saw an ad in an airport from another Puget Sound jurisdiction recruiting police!)

• AG October 9, 2024 (12:42 am)

  The cameras are an absolutely terrible “plan.” Who’s monitoring? Where is the data stored? For how long? Who can access it? With what other databases might it be correllated? How will the myriad privacy issues and legal exposures be paid for? Anyone who doesn’t understand current issues around facial-recognition tech and data privacy really needs to take a seat on this issue — and that most definitely includes Rob Saka.

  • WSB October 9, 2024 (1:17 am)

    Answers to most of those questions are in this doc:
    https://seattle.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=13271078&GUID=369522E3-C4CA-43C7-A54E-06498E8B93BA

    More detailed docs are also attached to the agenda item
    https://seattle.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=6847391&GUID=CBEF335C-2E55-4E15-B804-48EDDA8E471C&Options=&Search=

  • Al King October 9, 2024 (6:11 am)

    AG. All of your concerns apply to private businesses (and homeowners) who’ve had security cameras for years. What have you said/done to those entities? 

• K October 9, 2024 (2:02 am)

  Data shows cameras don’t prevent or affect crime at all.  Another waste of taxpayer money in the name of feel-good optics.

  • CAM October 9, 2024 (4:45 pm)

    Just like the stupid and worthless shot spotter Harrell is determined to throw millions into. It’s not about what’s effective. These “pragmatic” “law and order” candidates are just here to collect a paycheck and put window dressing up. 

• Bob October 9, 2024 (3:32 am)

  I say it is wrong and we should stop it. This should be a free country with as little police and cameras monitoring as possible. We should be policing ourselves not paying someone else to do it for us. I vote no. Mind your own business and let people do what they want. I hate all this pre- crime crap. It reminds me minority report. I believe that any form of monitoring people is wrong.

• SpencerGT October 9, 2024 (3:33 am)

  Rare council W.

• Shawn October 9, 2024 (4:12 am)

  It comes down to expectations of privacy.  There’s no expectation of privacy if you are already in a public place like an intersection.  A camera isn’t going to change anything in this situation.  But these things cannot be ex. pointed at someone private lawn or into a window of a home or anything without violating an expectation of privacy.  So there needs to be rigorous controls on where these can be installed and where they can be pointed.  As long as those are in place I’m basically okay with it, and I consider myself to be a pretty strong believer in privacy rights in general.

• Marcus October 9, 2024 (4:56 am)

  I bet the people who do not want cameras are the same people who do not support the city’s efforts to fight crime.  All this crying about privacy and then they go to all their apps on their phones and post what they had for lunch with their location broadcasted. Let me call it for what it is, anti camera is really pro crime. We need the modern tools to fight crime.

• Mike October 9, 2024 (4:59 am)

  This won’t go well.

  • Jason October 9, 2024 (12:27 pm)

    Agree. This is ridiculous. Praying ACLU does a lawsuit or two.

• T Rex October 9, 2024 (7:40 am)

  You get what you vote for folks. Seattle and other cities have not been the same since the “summer of love”. Police are disrespected, they can no longer due their jobs without ridicule or the fear of going to jail, be sued, etc.  Yes, there are bad cops, but there are far more bad people who do not obey laws. Over and over and over. And guess what has happened? Seattle and other large cities are being worn down by the bad guys. We will now have crime everywhere, thus we get the cameras. You can identify the bad guys all you want, but if you have officials in the courts who feel the bad guys will come in for their court appearance because they have on an ankle monitor, you are dead wrong. Just my opinion. 

  • K October 9, 2024 (9:12 am)

    Thank you for letting us know you’ve never lived in any other city besides Seattle.

  • Jason October 9, 2024 (1:59 pm)

    Turn off Kruse and KOMO, geeze. Go outside once in awhile. This city isn’t all crime and anti-police. I see so much police support it’s nauseating. You are pushing a hyperbolic lie. 

• Genesee5Points October 9, 2024 (8:23 am)

  “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one” Benjamin Franklin 

  • Johnny Stulic October 9, 2024 (9:05 am)

    OK, one more time: what specific and particular freedoms are we surrendering for security when cameras are monitoring high crime areas? Please provide concrete answers instead of citing out-of-context meaningless slogans.

    • Scarlett October 9, 2024 (10:56 am)

      Well, the 4th Amendment for one, Johnny, that prohibits unreasonable searches without a warrant.  Why are you law and order types, no doubt self-described “conservatives” so eager to violate the noble principles of our founding fathers?

      • Ex-Westwood Resident October 9, 2024 (12:44 pm)

        How is the 4th Amendment being violated by having surveillance cameras installed?

        If a person wanted to, they LEGALLY could film you from the moment you stepped out your front door, to the time you reentered your home, and there is diddly squat you could do about it.

        How is filming a 4th Amendment violation??? 

        • WS Res October 9, 2024 (1:55 pm)

          Individuals are allowed to do things that the government is not. For example, the government may not suppress your speech (generally) but West Seattle Blog could refuse to let you post comments.

      • Johnny Stulic October 9, 2024 (2:30 pm)

        Finally, an answer. Completely misleading, smoke-and-mirrors red herring, but at least an answer. Now all you have to do is to explain how a camera used for monitoring possible crime activity and potentially ID-ing suspects engaged in crime constitutes “unreasonable search”. Who exactly is unreasonably searching you, me, and other non-criminals and how?
        Also, if you bothered to read my other post in this thread, you’d realize that I am as far from a conservative as one can possibly get, but that wouldn’t serve your preconceived ideas of what liberals do or don’t, now would it? Here’s a hint: there are plenty of liberals out there who are able to imagine a better society without resorting to performative compassion, crocodile tears over criminal scum, and loss of imaginary freedoms while our actual freedom from fear, crime, and loss of life is dismissed on a regular basis as trivial and necessary.

        • Scarlett October 10, 2024 (9:03 am)

          Johnny S:

          I really don’t care whether you are a liberal, a conservative, or a libertarian, your kind of thinking is very dangerous to a nation where “unreasonable search and seizure” and free movement and expression is the cornerstone.   CCTV violates this principle and it provides a searchable database without a specific warrant for a specific crime.  There are other ways of staying safe rather than voyeuristic spying on the public.  

          Imagine you, a peaceful non-violent indiviudal are involved in a peaceful protest at Alki Beach honoring a certain someone who was killed in a certain country. Now, imagine now the FBI want’s access to that camera footage to track someone, maybe someone you might have spoken to, or simply stood next to.  Maybe it’s a completely different situation,  less James Bond-ish, but now you’re in the crosshairs of some other law enforcement agency.  See where I’m going with this, Johnny-O?   Safeguards?  Please. 

          If you want to eagerly surrender your last shred of privacy and dignity, be my guest,  but don’t involve the rest of us   

    • Genesee5Points October 9, 2024 (2:13 pm)

      Johnny…. Clearly you are more triggered about this than I am. I merely posted an out of context quote from Benjamin Franklin, that was actually in regard to national defense (not state sponsored surveillance) in some of the earliest years of our founding. However, the entire concept of state sponsored surveillance of its populous is gross to me.  Not only does it flirt with violating our 4th amendment rights as Scarlett points out, but it could be the beginning of something more sinister. This could lead to more cameras in “non-high-crime” areas. It could lead to facial recognition software being applied to the footage, and other applications seen in places like China/EU. I bet when they (China/EU) started their state sponsored surveillance programs it started like, “we’re putting up cameras for your safety, only in a high-crime area”.  Further, I fully understand that, “when in public no one can have an expectation of privacy” is the established law of the land, but thinking private citizens with cameras, and state sponsored surveillance is the same thing is false. A citizen with a camera does not have the weight of the government, DA and law enforcement behind them. If you think that the government is batting 1000 in the way it equitably disburses justice, a different conversation is in our future.               

  • Ex-Westwood Resident October 9, 2024 (9:22 am)

    And just what exact freedom are you surrendering?

  • AK October 9, 2024 (9:42 am)

    Agreed! This surveillance is disgusting! I see spray cans in the future for these lenses just like London!

• Scarlett October 9, 2024 (9:17 am)

  The inevitably brings up the clamor for more police as if that is the solution to everything.  It isn’t.  The police are not constitutionally required to protect you or your property.  When police officers refused to enter the school building at Uvalde they were protected under “qualifed immunity.”  A police is essentially “free-lancing” when they are on patrol and depending on their whims, or perceived danger to themselves, can decide whether to pull you over, respond to a crime, or whether to enter a school building, scene of a mass shooting.  Somehow people have this notion that a police office is sworn to “serve and protect” when in fact the reality is far, far more murky – and unsettling.    

  • Al King October 9, 2024 (11:41 am)

    Scarlett. So far I’ve heard nothing from you (and others) that actually addresses criminal activity and that provides real justice and compensation for the VICTIMS. You do care about the victims of crime more than the perpetrators don’t you?

    • Jason October 9, 2024 (1:56 pm)

      We told you. You aren’t listening. Raise the floor (social programs and wage equality) and you fix this issue. Stop letting Bezos, etc. having obscene amounts of money.  Fix crime by fixing wealth gap. Tale as old as time.

      • neighbor October 9, 2024 (2:46 pm)

        Jason, you’ve got me curious now. Can you cite an example where this has worked?

        • Jason October 9, 2024 (4:14 pm)

          Sure, Iceland is a start. Trusted social structure, great social nets, trusted police even.

        • CAM October 9, 2024 (4:48 pm)

          Or you know, most of Europe. Overwhelmingly, countries with better social supports and safety nets have lower crime rates. Countries with harsher and more punitive legal systems have higher crime rates. It’s not rocket science. 

        • Mike October 9, 2024 (10:41 pm)

          Ah yes, nothing like a complete collapse of a banking system, sinking economy, ridiculous cost of living and all with a tiny population!  But hey, they have cool horses and neat fat tire trucks.

        • CAM October 11, 2024 (2:30 pm)

          You do realize that the majority of the problems the European banks have had are the result of US banks creating global financial crises (autocorrect changed crises to crimes and I was sorely tempted to leave it there). Unfortunately, the US financial sector being the barren wasteland of ethics and morality that it is, the rest of the world has to pick up the pieces from our greed. 

• Ex-Westwood Resident October 9, 2024 (9:18 am)

  For those making the “Invasion of Privacy” argument, you do realize that once you step outside your front door, your expectation of “privacy” is gone.

  The Gov’t or a private citizen (unless they are going to use you image to make a profit, then a release must be signed) can photograph you, video record you, audio record your conversations (one-sided if you are on a phone) …etc., without notifying you or obtaining a warrant.

  No, the cameras will not prevent crime per se, but they will make the perpetrators of that crime easier to ID and will provide video proof of a crime being committed and removing the “he said/she said” dilemma.

  This was passed along with the $50,000 sign on bonus to attract Police Officers from other departments to join Seattle PD. A “two-prong” attack on the crime in the city.

  Will both work?

  Who knows, but at least they are trying something about the crime in the city other than ignoring it, or making it worse, like previous Councils have.

  • Steve Holt October 9, 2024 (3:56 pm)

    “Privacy is already gone so you should stop worrying about it.”

    What? No. Right now you all are so high and mighty in that what you do day in and day out is not a crime. What happens when it becomes one? What happens when someone decides what you do is a crime? You all seem to trust the police to “do the right thing”. When you let your freedoms slip away under the guise of protecting your community, you welcome a whole different type of criminal who seeks power and control.

    It’s like you’re immune to the information about what is happening all over the country with local governments trying to dictate what you read, what happens in your bedroom, or what is “socially acceptable” behavior. “Well that’s not happening here!” you say, but all I’ll say is: “not yet.”

    If you want an end to all crime, then by all means: welcome the fascist state. Welcome the constant surveillance. Welcome the end to your freedom and liberty. It’s all good when the eye is pointed at “them”, but you’re going to find that eventually the eye points at “you” and there will be nothing to be done.

    You rejoice now at “sweeps” to clear unhoused people from your sight. “Out of sight, out of mind”, right? What happens when YOU become the “deplorable” or the “unwanted”? Why should anyone stand for you when you failed to stand for your neighbor?

    • Ex-Westwood Resident October 10, 2024 (9:45 am)

      Way to misquote me Mr. Holt!!!

      I NEVER said, “Privacy is already gone so you should stop worrying about it.”

      What I did say was “…you do realize that once you step outside your front door, your expectation of “privacy” is gone.”

      Which is TRUE and a LEGAL FACT that has been established by SCOTUS ruling/s NUMEROUS times and YEARS ago.

      VERY different than saying it is gone, and you shouldn’t worry about it.

• T Anderson October 9, 2024 (10:01 am)

  Privacy? Virtually everyone has a cell phone that tracks their every movement. Google and many others aggregate your personal information and then share it broadly. Perhaps every commercial building  and apartment complex is surrounded by security cameras and private residences often have door cams……….in my opinion the “ship has sailed” on the issue of Alki street cameras invading our privacy. Plus the police will never have enough officers to effectively control swelling crowds of street racers, backfiring vehicles and general mayhem during weekends and every good weather day on Alki and Harbor aves. We need all the tools that we can get and cameras would be a very effective tool, even if not the perfect solution.

• .. October 9, 2024 (10:36 am)

  Cameras will do nothing to help with crime. Look at all the Ring cameras with evidence of a crime and used in reports, but no one is ever found. China is sure enjoying watching every move you make on your Ring cam though. People are so dumb to fall for cameras to provide some sort of security. If you want to live in a police state I suggest that you pack up and move to China where big brother is more than happy to watch every move you make. Accountability is the only way to solve crime – act like a criminal, get treated like a criminal. Underage laws need to be changed at state legislature, maybe 12-13yo should be charged as adults and record stays for lifetime, rather than clear record at 18. Kids aren’t doing petty crime any longer. They learned from playing video games like Grand Theft Auto, now taken into real life holding people at gunpoint and stealing cars. Also gun laws in this state are a joke! No one held accountable using current laws. I will never vote for anyone on either side who talks about adding more gun laws, ridiculous! 

  • WSB October 9, 2024 (11:35 am)

    One correction – whatever you think of security cameras, including private ones, they DO factor into arrests and prosecution. We have reported on multiple cases with security video as evidence, and I’m writing about yet another one right now.

    • Jason October 9, 2024 (12:26 pm)

      But not preventing. The only way to do that is fix social equality. Period. Direct correlation between poverty and crime. It’s so stupid how it’s ignored and everyone wants to be reactionary.

• Scarlett October 9, 2024 (10:48 am)

  You can put up a hundred CCTV camera’s at your house if you like, but keep them off me when I’m at the beach or other public venue – okay?  It’s illustrative at how far conservatism has deteriorated by the numbers of self-described “conservatives” who willingly – eagerly – submit to being surveilled and monitered.   What an intellectual wasteland conservatism has become.  

  • Ex-Westwood Resident October 10, 2024 (9:33 am)

    Once you are in “PUBLIC” that means OUTSIDE of your PRIVATE residence, the expectation of PRIVACY is gone.

    If you are in a Starbucks talking to a friend and you state, “I’m going to (commit a crime)” and a person, or anyone, overhears you at the next table, they are FULLY in their rights to call the police and inform them of your intention. Even if you are saying it over the phone.

    There is ZERO expectation of “PRIVACY” on ANY public street, building, shopping mall, sports/concert venue, beach, pool, gym…etc., ANYWHERE that the PUBLIC can go, BOTH visibly and auditory.

    The ONLY place where you have an “expectation of PRIVACY” is in your home.

  • Ex-Westwood Resident October 10, 2024 (10:00 am)

    You need to ask yourself this question.

    “If I am at Alki Beach, watching a volleyball game, and a person is videotaping the game across from me, and I am DEFINITELY in the frame, do I have the RIGHT to ask, and MAKE him stop videotaping the game and me?”

    You do have the RIGHT to ask if he would stop, but he is UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO DO SO.

    He doesn’t even have to move or change the angle of his shooting.

  • Rhonda October 11, 2024 (12:36 am)

    Scarlett, us Conservatives are HIGHLY against government surveillance cameras spying on the public. You’d be VERY hard pressed to find one who supports them. 

• Marcus October 9, 2024 (3:22 pm)

  On the big island the town of Pahala was overrun with street drug sales. This small old agriculture town turned up scale was being distroyed by the drug addicted spoiling small businesses and the people’s desire to raise their children in a safe environment.  The local police installed close circuit cameras and the problem soon went away. I assume many were arrested and word got around. I was there and saw the cameras. So bitch all you want about loss of privacy and ineffectiveness. It works, you are wrong and grow up.

  • CAM October 9, 2024 (8:16 pm)

    The part of this anecdote that I’d like to hear more about is the transition from an agricultural community to “upscale.” Something tells me those “drug addicted” residents that are the villain of your story were pushed off their land, left with few ways to support themselves or earn a basic income to feed their family. There’s a whole level of generational trauma and manifest destiny style thinking in there that is being skated over quite quickly. 

    • Marcus October 11, 2024 (11:09 am)

      Really!

• Scarlett October 10, 2024 (10:22 am)

  Laws evolve and multiply and usually in one direction – more restrictions.   What is legal now, might be illegal in the future.  You, the law-abiding citzen who wants a camera on every utility pole, might find yourself on the receiving end of some law in the future.   Best to exhaust all other options before going down that path.

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