62 Replies to "FOLLOWUP: Madison Development buys PCC West Seattle site, 'exploring possible ideas'"

• bolo May 26, 2015 (1:43 pm)

  Predicting is never easy, especially predicting the future, but let’s have some fun:

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  1. Apartment building occupying the entire footprint, maybe some “live/work” units on ground floor, some “low-income” units to qualify for the no-property-tax-for-several-years deal, no offstreet parking (if that location is close enough to “frequent transit” to qualify).

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  2. Or Apodments.

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  3. NC2-40 but possible higher if the elevation can be measured from the highest corner or other finessing.

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  4. Cellphone antenna farm on roof!

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  Let’s see your predictions!

• Vanessa May 26, 2015 (1:50 pm)

  Here goes another neighborhood.

• Sue May 26, 2015 (2:02 pm)

  It’s probably smart of them to not invest in any redevelopment right now and let things be. If PCC allegedly has a lease through most of the decade, and Whole Foods should be opening sometime by the end of next year or so, it would likely be helpful to see what impact Whole Foods will have on PCC.

• Craig May 26, 2015 (2:04 pm)

  WHOO HOO….PROGRESS! Can’t wait for another 400 living spaces w/ no parking! Let’s change the name to West Ballard.

• Macj May 26, 2015 (2:25 pm)

  It’d be nice if they get rid of that big ugly parking lot. The back lot area is always at least half empty, it’s a huge waste of space.

• JanS May 26, 2015 (2:29 pm)

  interesting. For me, Sue, Whole Foods will not impact anything, as I will not be shopping there. I live across the street from Admiral Safeway, a block from Met Market (the high priced spread), and 1 1/2 blocks from PCC (the alternative spread). Frankly, I think the Spruce building is ugly. I do hope that what goes onto this location eventually, as it inevitably will, is given a bit more aesthetic thought. Is there a discount supply store that all these buildings go to to get their siding? Must be…

  I would hope that future plans for this site would include PCC. It could be quite attractive ala the new TJ’s on Queen Anne.

  https://www.google.com/maps/place/1916+Queen+Anne+Ave+N,+Seattle,+WA+98109/@47.636607,-122.356916,3a,90y,103.88h,83.91t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sxJ9iK9DVYJz1vNu_ItArvQ!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x54901512e3392701:0x7376324247270148!6m1!1e1

  • WSB May 26, 2015 (2:35 pm)

    Since you bring it up, it should be noted that Spruce’s design was finalized before Madison bought the project in a foreclosure auction. Don’t know if it would have been any different, but they weren’t involved in the design. What was built is pretty much the final design revision which we showed in this story from seven long years ago, except that LA Fitness is the tenant instead of Whole Foods (which, for newcomers, is now set for the Whittaker development across Alaska from Spruce):
    .
    https://westseattleblog.com/2008/07/bluestar-explains-to-juno-why-fauntleroy-place-changed/
    .
    For development-history trivia’s sake, that design in turn was considerably changed from the grand design with which the project was proposed, under its original owner (Bluestar, no relation to Madison), the second rendering shown in that same story linked above. – TR

• JanS May 26, 2015 (2:31 pm)

  I do agree with Macj…that back lot is usually parking for delivery trucks. Zipcar used it for a while, but I guess I was the only one who used them, so they left the Admiral area

• Wasteland May 26, 2015 (2:37 pm)

  I certainly hope they follow the lead of many West Seattle developers and kick out PCC pretty quickly and then just let the building sit there empty, falling apart and getting tagged. Then a year or so after that, they should put up Private Property signs or a temporary chain link fence to show they’re serious about not letting people steal the junk that was left behind.

• Sue May 26, 2015 (2:38 pm)

  Jan, while I love PCC, am a member, and shop there often, the new Whole Foods will be 1 block from my apartment. I can walk there. So while I’d like to continue to support PCC, I won’t lie and am sure I’ll do most of my shopping at WF since it’ll be far more convenient, especially since PCC is about the only thing I ever go to Admiral for.

• West Seattle Hipster May 26, 2015 (3:25 pm)

  So, the parking lot of the PCC is an “ugly waste of space”. Sounds like the words of a real estate developer.

  .

  How about West Seattle Golf Course, there is room for hundreds of apodments and/or condos. And Lincoln Park, with it’s spectacular views of Puget Sound……..

  .

  The possibilities are endless.

• Steve May 26, 2015 (3:35 pm)

  I volunteered at PCC’s grand opening in ’88. I also shopped at that location when it was a Prairie Market. Bummer.

• ChefJoe May 26, 2015 (3:53 pm)

  Cool, maybe they can put in a few more Starbucks and pizza places.

• Be mama May 26, 2015 (4:14 pm)

  This PCC is way too small. They need more space. An employee recently told me that the reason they are always out of my household staples (hummus and mild salsa) is because they don’t have enough food storage in the back. I LOVE Pcc, but they need to up their game before whole foods moves in otherwise people will go there for reliable stock. In short I hope they stay at this location with a footprint 3 times the size.

• onion May 26, 2015 (4:28 pm)

  If I only had one local market, it would be PCC. I love their deli, down to earth staff, large bulk and spice section, and high quality produce and meats. Sure, Metro and WF have quality as well, and more non-organic options than PCC, but Metro and WF are focused on maximizing margins. PCC puts a lot more focus on community than the others ever will.
  I also like that PCC is a bit smaller than some other markets. It means I can get in and out more quickly. Will WF have as much parking as PCC? Unless you live right there it might actually take more effort to shop at WF than at PCC.

  • WSB May 26, 2015 (4:39 pm)

    Onion – The Whittaker project, where WF is the lone announced tenant so far, will have about 400 apartments and 600 underground parking spaces. Don’t know how many of them will be earmarked for retail only, but between that and Spruce, there’s a lot of parking at/coming to the Fauntleroy/Alaska intersection. (Anyone been in the Spruce garage yet? Is it free to park for LA Fitness customers? Just wondering.)

• WTF May 26, 2015 (4:30 pm)

  I wish I had the disposable income to shop at PCC and Whole Foods. :( I don’t, so I can’t and I won’t.

• Jeanie May 26, 2015 (4:56 pm)

  Well put, bolo! West Seattle development is becoming a cliche. “Live/work,” etc. Oh, and “sustainable.” Now, I am all for sustainable, but it’s becoming a meaningless buzzword.

• anonyme May 26, 2015 (5:06 pm)

  PCC, please come to Arbor Heights! We are desperate for amenities, especially ‘alternative’ grocery stores. There is no decent shopping or dining near the southwest end of West Seattle.

• Neighbor May 26, 2015 (5:17 pm)

  The thing with PCC is not only are they a great local grocer they actually support local farmers and farm land. This is huge! Not only does it lower the food miles, it preserves the land/soil for food to grow on. With all the development in the area they are right on the front line fighting with Washington farmers to carve out access and sustain those multi generational farms. Without PCC doing this our food supply will become less sustainable and food more costly.
  California will not be the food basket for our country in the coming decades as this mega drought is showing us. We need local producers, PCC understands this and is actively pursuing solutions.

• Peter May 26, 2015 (5:25 pm)

  A few commenters have claimed the apartments to be built here will have no parking, and I have a question for them: Where did you get that information? Or are you just making sh*t up because of your general opposition to building housing?

• Bonnie May 26, 2015 (5:46 pm)

  Anonyme, I was just going to post I am so happy to live in the Southwest side of WS because they are not doing the crazy building! But then again, I shouldn’t speak too soon.

• JanS May 26, 2015 (6:57 pm)

  Peter…I think they were being sarcastic ;-)

• JohnH May 26, 2015 (7:06 pm)

  “We’ll begin exploring possible ideas for the site and don’t have immediate plans for any redevelopment.”

  I’m sorry, but you don’t buy such a property without first knowing exactly what you are going to do with it. I wish developers would be more up front.

• South Ballard May 26, 2015 (7:59 pm)

  Craig, I’ve been calling WS, South Ballard for years :)

• WS May 26, 2015 (8:03 pm)

  I love pcc. It’s not expensive if you actually cook food. Whole foods cost way more then pcc too. PCC is the only store that really supports the local movement. I hope it stays in WS. :(

• South Ballard May 26, 2015 (8:03 pm)

  Peter, it’s because the city council allowed builders to not include parking if new sites were near transit and as an incentive to build during the recession. Not working out too good as people still bring their cars. Definitely speaking from reality and experience, not making stuff up. CM Rasmussen us looking at changing this no parking policy.

• South Ballard May 26, 2015 (8:10 pm)

  Wasteland, I agree. Charlestown Cafe site is a good example. Vacant for 4 years. The “burned out Shucks” diagonal from the cafe was vacant a little more than 4 years. The “hole” at Fauntleroy and Alaska is another example. Kind of shoots holes in peoples arguments that WS is a booming. Maybe developing slowly in some cases and impacting neighbors with eyesores!

• trickycoolj May 26, 2015 (8:13 pm)

  Just had dinner with a friend at the new East Greenlake PCC… It’s beautiful. If out store looked like that I would make the trip up from High Point weekly. Unfortunately it has a much smaller selection and I generally only make the trip when I want a really nice piece of meat for the grill.

• MOVE Seattle May 26, 2015 (9:29 pm)

  See, PCC should have purchased the Freedom Church site at 35th and Roxbury, location of a former Safeway store. This location is on the bus line since it may soon take you an hour to drive from North West Seattle to South West Seattle due to the future 35th Ave road diet, plenty of space for your hummus and salsa and other goodies…a sorely missed opportunity for PCC and West Seattle.

• Steve May 26, 2015 (9:52 pm)

  I hate what WS is becoming….hell, I hate what Seattle is becoming. I’m a native and now in my mid-50’s and barely recognize my hometown. It’s impossible to leave town or get home without relying on my knowledge of ‘backroads’ but even that is starting to prove difficult as the powers-that-be steal away traffic lanes and attempt to force people onto unreliable public transit. This city is quickly losing its soul and WS was one of the last decent places to live…but for how much longer?

• lvbebe May 26, 2015 (11:14 pm)

  WSB I tried the new LA Fitness over the weekend and yes parking is free for those going to LA Fitness. It is blocked or at least makers LA Fitness and Spryce guests.

  • WSB May 27, 2015 (12:01 am)

    Thanks!

• Admiral Fam May 27, 2015 (12:52 am)

  I am so sad reading this and just finding out. I don’t know what we will do if PCC leaves admiral. We count on them for groceries. So many memories of strolling/scootering there with my son, he looks forward to the free kid fruit. I’ve done the met market, trader joes, whole foods stores and they don’t come close to the quality, freshness and taste of PCC products. PCC is the only simple and convenient natural store that we can trust to actually be local and organic. Others carry organic but the quality isn’t always as great as PCC’s. This stores has everything we need. PCC has spectacular breakfast/lunch/dinner self serve hot food area. It’s much more tastier and less greasy/pricey then met market near by (not to complain, met market isn’t bad but we love PCC). I live about 5 streets away. I hope PCC is incorporated somehow with the project. Admiral keeps them busy, rarely do I see the store not be busy. They would be nuts not to keep PCC in that spot. Who cares about whole foods, I think most members will stay with PCC. I have no interest in going to huge grocery stores. I prefer smaller, locally farmed true quality stuff. I’m blabbing away a little here but I’m just shocked to find out project plans for this spot. I’m going to be nervous watching where PCC will go. I don’t mind project plans and restructuring in that spot as long as PCC stays!

• Dawn May 27, 2015 (7:19 am)

  @WTF: why do you think “disposable income” is necessary to shop at PCC? Perhaps it’s the food you’re eating? Whole foods (including organics) are less expensive and better quality at PCC than Safeway, Trader Joe’s, Thriftway, Metromarket and Whole Paycheck. If all you’re eating is processed foods, yeah, it’s more expensive. Plus as a PCC member, you enjoy 5% discount off your total bill two days per month, and a 10% discount once per month. Shop smart, save money, eat healthy.

• Bobana May 27, 2015 (7:53 am)

  Can PCC move into the new building?? Like Fremont store? They are huge by the way.

• SW May 27, 2015 (8:29 am)

  I second the vote for PCC to move to Arbor Heights. Although, its too late to purchase the Jesus Center on 35th/Roxbury (which would have been beyond ideal, BTW). I think there might be some bargain real estate options for them on this end of town.

• AJ May 27, 2015 (9:32 am)

  I read the previous story, and now I’m even more nervous about the future of PCC in WS. PCC is my main grocery store (along with TJ’s), and if they leave, I will likely look into moving to another area that has one. I hope it works out that they can stay in that spot, but I can’t imagine the logistics with construction going on around and above it. Actually, I hope they’ll purchase a larger space with a better parking lot and have it ready to go before they have to move out of the current spot. The south end of WS (as mentioned by others) would be ideal for me, as I live south of Morgan. In or near Westwood Village could be good (except I’d be less likely to shop at night unless security improves). But I will go anywhere they are in WS. I am loyal to PCC: Shopping at WF will be rare – probably limited to the odd item I can’t find at PCC or Met Market, and occasional stops for lunch.

• Joan May 27, 2015 (9:36 am)

  I love PCC and for the record, I have parked in the “back lot” many times, when the other lot was full. It’s not ugly or useless. It’s a parking lot!
  I do not plan to shop at Whole Foods. PCC, Trader Joe’s and occasionally Safeway fulfill all my needs. I still don’t see where WF is going either. So far the only thing I see at Spruce is the fitness center.

  I hope if and when PCC has to move, it finds a suitable location nearby.

  • WSB May 27, 2015 (9:47 am)

    Joan, Whole Foods has been long slated to go into the Whittaker development, across the street from Spruce. Still more than a year from opening. Originally announced two and a half years ago: https://westseattleblog.com/2012/11/bulletin-whole-foods-confirms-its-new-west-seattle-plan-4755-fauntleroy-way-sw/

• West Sea Neighbor May 27, 2015 (9:54 am)

  Please, PCC, don’t leave West Seattle!

• Mason May 27, 2015 (11:34 am)

  This makes me sad for the WS I’ve known all my life. Yes, let’s change the name to West Ballard as one previous person suggested.

• anonyme May 27, 2015 (12:22 pm)

  Bonnie, I don’t like the crazy building either. But I do think our neighborhood would be much more livable if we had a few walkable amenities — aside from pot and smoke shops. Groceries, a coffee shop – these things would be an enhancement, I believe.

  I think the editor previously pointed out that Safeway has an agreement that no grocery store can go into that location. Really unfortunate.

• fulana May 27, 2015 (12:35 pm)

  While Delridge remains a food desert, all you Admiral folks are arguing about expensive grocery stores and parking.

• AMM May 27, 2015 (1:27 pm)

  Admiral Fam, I second your comments 100%. I am massively disappointed to hear this news. It will hugely affect my family if PCC leaves.

• macj May 27, 2015 (1:34 pm)

  @West Seattle Hipster
  In what universe is half an acre of flat pavement equivalent to a park? I just think they should put that parking in an underground garage or something. Seattle’s not getting any bigger, so sprawling surface parking lots drive up land prices.

  The Junction should be thinking about a real parking garage, too. Maybe start by replacing KeyBank’s overgrown excuse for a drive-through ATM.

• dwar May 27, 2015 (3:37 pm)

  Peter, — The location is on a bus line — No parking is required acording to current Seattle city code. Thank your city council.

• wetone May 27, 2015 (4:32 pm)

  Truly shows how little the elected officials in this city really care about people living here, their actions tell all. They have and continue letting the big money do as they wish with large build ups in many areas such as Ballard and West Seattle without doing proper impact studies. Along with no infrastructure and transit improvements. Hope they don’t over build area so much that it all collapses.

• Neighbor2 May 27, 2015 (4:38 pm)

  Everybody in the city should have easy access to healthy foods. I love PCC and what they stand for and hope they don’t have to move out of the neighborhood. However, while respecting that the south end wants a good grocery store, I don’t expect that I will travel that far to get groceries. I go frequently to the store to get fresh produce and frequently walk to the current location.

• dhg May 27, 2015 (8:39 pm)

  Whole Foods will not take much of a bite out of PCC. With emphasis on organic, local produce, PCC is unbeatable. If they had had the foresight to have purchased the property, they would be way ahead of the game. Now they will have to look for new development.

• WS Since '66 May 28, 2015 (6:52 am)

  I love the changes and improvements to our West Seattle. Btw, Steve, and others, you are not a native of Seattle unless you mean you are a descendent of the Duwamish or other tribes that co-existed in this area some 1,000+ years ago.

  • WSB May 28, 2015 (7:39 am)

    Since ’66, I know what you’re saying but yes, if a person is born in a place, they can correctly describe themselves as native to it. (Lower-case “n,” not upper case, which indeed is only properly used by and regarding those of indigenous/aboriginal origin.)
    .
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/native
    .
    (While Patrick and I moved here 24 years ago, our son was born here, so we describe him now and then as the “only native West Seattleite in the house.”)
    .
    That said, I suspect your point is that unless someone is a descendant of local Native Americans, someone at some point in their ancestry came here from somewhere else, so where do they want to draw the line? Only third-generation West Seattleites have the right to be here? Second-generation? Moved here 25 years ago or more? Five years or more? Maybe some people really do want to draw a line somewhere, but otherwise, I would like to believe the issue isn’t really with more people moving here (or being born here, for that matter) … but with the perceived absence of a “big picture” regarding ensuring we have infrastructure and services (transit, etc.) for all. At least I would HOPE the issue is not the actual new West Seattleites – some of those moving vans are bringing people who are all kinds of awesome and will make this a better place, as did moving vans that pulled up here somewhere 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years ago. – TR

• anonyme May 28, 2015 (6:54 am)

  Neighbor2, I wouldn’t want to take that away from you. We would like the same thing out here in no man’s land (Arbor Heights) – a store selling whole foods that we can walk to.

  As to pricing, I’m on a fixed income and careful about spending. I figure good, clean food is a health investment. That said, I find Whole Foods to be fairly inexpensive. Their produce is reasonable, and their 365 line is extremely well-priced. It only becomes “whole paycheck” because there are so many temptations. For organic foods, whether fresh or packaged, QFC is exorbitantly expensive.

  I do love PCC because it’s our own little local WS store, where you can chat with Roxanne and give Dennis a hug…

• WS Since '66 May 28, 2015 (9:23 am)

  Thanks for your input, Tracy, regarding what many use the word native to mean. You know from my prior posts I love the new buildings going up and the new people moving here. They add life and energy to our neighborhood. People will continue to move here for all the reasons that we all moved here at one time or another. Now we need to invest in modern infrastructure especially mass transit. Just think if the monorail wasn’t killed we would have been riding it for the last 5 years and that includes a year overrun in construction.

• Greystreet May 28, 2015 (1:39 pm)

  Correct me if I’m wrong but organic is organic is organic. I was not aware that there were levels of organic products. While I do find PCC and WF to be expensive, I would tip the scale towards PCC being more expensive from the windshield surveys I’ve done with the few products I purchase there. I think PCC is a great store and I hope that it does stay in the Admiral neighborhood since it is a fixture but c’mon everyone, Safeway, Thriftway, QFC, Trader Joe’s and WF all have organic products. I agree that living in Arbor Heights makes it a drive to get anywhere but we all chose to live down here where it is more residential and less business-oriented, thus I am not surprised there aren’t more businesses nearby except Westwood Village and the Roxbury Safeway. That being said, the Roxbury Safeway has come leaps and bounds since I first moved to this neighborhood, they have a large organic and international food selection and the staff is always bright, helpful and polite. I’ve said this in so many other postings, to think that West Seattle would not be built up like other neighborhoods in Seattle is to wear a blinder. This city is expanding faster than it can handle, I liken Seattle to that scene in “Alice in Wonderland” where she eats or drinks and instantly grows to big for her dress; it is going to gobble up every last corner for the sake of development and West Seattle is one of those corners. So instead of complaining about development and progress let’s celebrate how awesome our neck of the woods is and advocate for seamless integration of new and modern structures and diversity of people.

• anonyme May 28, 2015 (2:23 pm)

  The organic produce at Safeway and QFC is of limited scope and generally poor quality – with one exception. The bagged organic potatoes at Safeway are of better quality and lower price than PCC. So, that’s one instance where organic is organic in a conventional grocery store. But aside from organic, all food products are not equal. Is a steak a steak, no matter what? No difference allowed for quality, or source? Of course not. So, if you actually care about the quality or variety on your table, or buying local goods, then no – organic is not organic, and it’s not the same food no matter where you purchase it.

  You make some good points Greystreet, but another of your comments confused me. Most of your post seems to point out how WS growth is inevitable, and we should embrace it. Yet you also say that those of us in Arbor Heights chose to live in the boonies, so we should just drive, drive, drive and never expect to do otherwise. I’m curious as to why we get this special exemption in terms of change/growth/improvements – and amenities (which, btw, there were at one time…)? Why the double standard when it comes to neighborhood?

• Greystreet May 28, 2015 (7:05 pm)

  Anonyme it as more of a stream of consciousness out of frustration so I apologize for the confusing points of Interest. I live in arbor heights and don’t find it to be an inconvenience that there aren’t businesses in my backyard, so maybe my point should have been clearer with, if one chooses to live in arbor heights he or she is cognizant that it is not close to amenities like some other neighborhoods in WS … I suppose you’re right about “is a steak is a steak”, the short answer is yes, because steak is steak because it’s all beef, the long answer is no because one doesn’t know the address, email, zip code and tax ID number of the farmer who raises it…I find the organic movement to be exhausting because this thread is a great example, if I purchase my organic foods at safeway, clearly in certain social circle I would have eyes cast down upon me because it wasn’t the same “quality” as if I purchased it at PCC or WF. Cheers! :-)

• SGG May 28, 2015 (9:08 pm)

  The reason it is important to continue to support PCC is that is is a COOP. Some products you can buy elsewhere, others you cannot. Some prices may be the same, some lower or higher. But the fact that it is a COOP means that shelf space can’t be purchased by Malden Mills, Frito Lay, Annheuser Busch, or any other multinational. I find I spend less money overall at this store because I come home with less Pepsi, Doritos, candy, and other stuff that manages to land in your cart that you didn’t intend to purchase.

• miws May 28, 2015 (9:42 pm)

  I’d like to make one point regarding amenities in Arbor Heights.

  .

  I don’t know how long anonyme has lived in AH, but if it’s more than around 8-10 years ago, Safeway was right there at 35th & Rox. IIRC, anonyme lives on 35th, and doesn’t have a car(?), so the store being there, at the time, may have played a part in where she chose to live.

  .

  To someone that has a car, the fact that Safeway moved about 1/2 mile or so east, is a non-issue. For someone that doesn’t have a car, and if there is no direct bus service there, it IS an issue, especially considering there is a significant (up)hill going back. Add health issues, and it’s even *more* significant.

  .

  When I became re-homed nearly 2 1/2 years ago, next to affordability (and hopefully getting back into WS), the most important thing to me was amenities easily accessible by foot, (keeping limitations due to chronic health issues in mind), or bus.

  .

  If the proposed bus cuts had gone through, I would have been significantly screwed; not as bad as others, like senior/disabled residents of Highpoint, but I would have lost most of my relatively manageable access to Westwood Village, Thriftway, and Harborview; much longer walks from bus stops to Home, with heavy bags, and involving some hills, whereas right now, the routes between the bus stops and Home are flat.

  .

  There’s is no way I could have stopped those cuts, just like anonyme couldn’t force Safeway to stay at 35th & Rox, but the point I’m trying to make is that sometimes people DO take amenities and access into consideration when choosing where to live, but sometime down the road, someone else makes changes that take those conveniences away.

  .

  Mike

  .

• anonyme May 29, 2015 (6:48 am)

  Thanks, Mike. You hit the nail on the head, once again! Not only did Safeway move farther away, but bus service has been slashed so that it takes 4 buses and a time commitment of at least 3 hours to fetch a bag of groceries. Nicol’s Market on SW 100th used to have some basic convenience store items, but no more.

  But that’s not the only reason it would be nice to have some amenities closer to Arbor Heights. A walking community is a sustainable one. The days of everyone driving miles and miles for every little thing are gone – or at least they should be. Nor do I understand the designation of Arbor Heights as some kind of remote, isolated suburb, immune to progress, while all the rest of West Seattle is booming (albeit not always in a necessarily good way). It sometimes seems to me that Arbor Heights has all the problems of the City (traffic, crime, etc.) with none of the perks (transportation, shopping). I don’t think the re-introduction of a few amenities is unreasonable.

• bolo May 31, 2015 (11:50 pm)

  Yes, not only was there a Safeway at 35th and Roxbury, there was a Fred Meyer at 26th and Roxbury.

• KM June 1, 2015 (6:32 pm)

  I’m just excited for a parking lot revamp, even if none at all. Lots of drivers pulling through spots and turning down one ways incorrectly. A true exercise in my patience.

Sorry, comment time is over.