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July 10, 2008 at 3:46 pm #587456
JoBParticipantthe other day i happened to be part of a conversation where one of the women present said that since Hillary was no longer running for president, she didn’t know what she would do. Perhaps she just wouldn’t vote…
i got on my impassioned soapbox and talked about the need for a democratic president to protect the supreme court… but either i was too passionate or that argument didn’t reach her.
it occurred to me later that perhaps this was one of those historically republican voters who would have crossed the party barrier to vote for a woman.
Whether she was or not.. i realized my response had frustration in it … NOT THEM!!!!! … and very little real passion.
So i would like to talk briefly ;) about how we can still support Hillary.
One of the biggest reasons for women supporting Hillary has been her passion for protecting the helpless… especially her willingness to work for legislation that is important to all women and children.
A vote for Obama this fall is a vote for Hillary.. if she is to continue the work in the Senate that we wanted her to go to the White House to do, she will need the support of a democratic president to get those bills she negotiates past the White House… and he is now our candidate.
It’s that simple.. she can’t continue our work effectively unless we elect a democrat to the White House.
It is a bitter pill to work towards his election as it becomes increasingly clear that he does not have the same compassion and commitment towards the little people that she does…
but now is the time to remember that nearly half the democratic party supported her.. and that gives us some power when it comes to setting our party’s agenda.
They can’t carry the election without us.
We need to give them our votes.. but we should also get something for them.
As strange as it may seem.. it is more important to support Hillary and her work now than it was while she was seeking the nomination…
So i am asking Hillary supporters.. from all political persuasions.. to help move her dream one step forward by doing everything you can to help get Obama elected.
Now.. i know some of you who really didn’t like Hillary are going to sputter like crazy at my “attacking” Obama.
I would ask you to step back and ask yourself if railing once again against Hillary is really in your best interests here.
You can’t get your candidate elected without our cooperation… and the price you may have to pay is a little humility.
Perhaps our support really was about something more than personalities… more than about a woman.. perhaps with all of her faults, we knew we would still get something of value from her.
perhaps our support of Hillary had more to do with the change she could bring to how American politics affected the well being of it’s citizens.
That is something those who support her still want her to do.. whether it is from a seat in the Senate or another pivotal position in the White House…
Support Hillary. Vote for Obama.
July 10, 2008 at 3:57 pm #630802
ZenguyParticipantWell said. We cannot afford another Republican president appointing conservative judges for life that could affect things like reproductive choices and government intrusion in our personal lives. Also a Democratic president would stop the need for bad compromises (FISA) since we do not have the power to override a veto.
Because Hillary had such a large voting block you can bet she will have a lot of say on the party platform as will John Edwards. I think all these ideas together make a much stronger, wiser and all inclusive party than any one candidate alone.
Hillary for Supreme court!
July 10, 2008 at 4:26 pm #630803
KenParticipantHillary will damage the “Clinton” brand beyond repair if she throws her weight around at the convention.
What she does behind the scenes is not relevant and may be useful to her own agenda.
But if her supporters are waiting for the “proper respect” then it will be another example of low information voters voting against their own best interest and condemning us all to at least two generation of authoritarian rule via wingnut ideologues on the supreme court.
July 10, 2008 at 5:33 pm #630804
JoBParticipantSorry Ken..
We have to agree to disagree..
If Hillary is not visable at the the convention.. you will lose those who would vote mainly for her.
Not Bill.. but Hillary. You apparently haven’t figured out it’s not a unisex Clinton brand…
Because to be perfectly honest.. i am not so interested in supporting a democratic party that does not feature many of her platforms…
and i think a democratic president matters…
the supreme court is not the only issue at stake in this election… as Obama’s drift towards the right clearly demonstrates.
I would ask who the low information voters really are? … because i am pretty sure i am not one of them.
If you think victory at any costs is in your best interests.. then Clinton haters are just going to have to pony up…
because that is what it is going to take.
July 10, 2008 at 5:52 pm #630805
KenParticipantI rest my case. :)
Low information indeed.
HRC’s policies and issues are core Democratic issues and will be included in the platform even if she never existed. Some of her obvious pandering probably will not. Statehood for Guam, PR (maybe, maybe not since a large percentage in PR does not want it) and several pacific islands for example, is not likely to make it.
Hillary herself is smart enough to not upstage the nominee. Bill? not so much.
It’s her supporters (and a dwindling number of them) that are holding grudges and expecting to be begged.
July 10, 2008 at 5:57 pm #630806
ZenguyParticipantI understand that Hillary supporters were passionate and excited to support the first viable female candidate for President, but cope, deal and move on? Now is the time to unify the party for the country.
There are so many issues as stake, the chipping away of civil rights, America’s reputation on the World stage and we cannot forget about the economy. I want out of Iraq desperately, but realize you cannot just pull out everyone tomorrow with out safety concerns. I bet if it had been put to a national referendum and the potential cost of $341 million dollars a day or over $2000 per individual had been disclosed, it would have failed.
July 10, 2008 at 6:20 pm #630807
JoBParticipantZenGuy,
what party are we unifying? Because i don’t know the answer to that yet.
How close to the blue dogs will we move in the interests of party unity?
Ken,
you are sadly mistaken when you think this is about grudges… and that mistaken belief could easily cost the democratic party this election.
Take a look at the legislation sponsored and the voting records of Obama and Hillary and you will find substantial differences in their approaches to domestic problems…
those differences matter to people who are in trouble. And they clearly mattered to nearly half the democratic party.
i want our party platform to include some old fashioned liberal democratic ideals… so that we can move towards campaign promises that will draw in middle american swing votes.
That’s what it’s going to take to draw the vote of those who were overlooked but still supported Hillary in huge numbers.. the elderly.
This isn’t about grudges.. this is about policy… and about letting the next president know that we think people matter… and that to get elected, he is going to have to show that he is at least interested in what matters to the ordinary citizen…
bite the bullet.. it’s good for you isn’t too appealing to those who already bit the bullet and are having digesting it.
July 10, 2008 at 6:34 pm #630808
ZenguyParticipantAs a died in the wool Liberal I am not happy about the drift to the center, but when you only have a two party system your choices are somewhat limited at the Federal level. I think Obama is a good candidate with a vision of making this country better for all. Do I dislike some things he has done, heck ya! Overall I think he is the best candidate to take the country forward and make a break from the last eight years.
July 10, 2008 at 6:54 pm #630809
beachdrivegirlParticipantWell said Zenguy and Ken. And of course we are going to dislike some of what Obama has done. He is human just like every other political canidate and who does agree with 100% of what any canidate says/does.
July 10, 2008 at 8:14 pm #630810
KenParticipantHow is this different
and that mistaken belief could easily cost the democratic party this election.
from a blackmail or protection racket threat?
“That’s a very nice election you have there… It would be a shame if sumpin wuz to happen to it…”
Swing voters are not and never have shown any interest in classic Liberal platform policies. Swing voters were taken in by the term “compassionate conservative” in 2000 and convinced that they were about to be attacked in their beds in Booger Fork, Ohio by primary colors on a damn chart in 2004.
If Obama can convince them that he is “moderate” and not interested in the hard decisions required to dig out of this hole we are in, then I don’t have to like it, I just have to work to get him into the White House, where he can be convinced to do what is needed. FDR was not elected as a liberal much less a progressive. The bank panic between election day and the inauguration forced his hand into decisive actions that in no way resembled many of the issues or promises he had campaigned on.
But look how many of the actions of his first hundred days are either still with us or were killed by Phil Gramm and his crony McCain in the last two decades (some with the help of Bill Clinton)
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1589.html
The sad thing is, HRC would be doing the exact same dance to the center if she had won the nomination and I would be out knocking on doors trying desperately to get her elected while being just as annoyed at her bully foreign policy swings.
Both candidates and now moveon and the Dem leadership have already caved on universal health care.
http://healthcareforamericanow.org/
The rhetoric is still there but the proposals are designed not to threaten the for profit health insurance industry.
http://www.pnhpwesternwashington.org/
This is despite the single payer plank language that has been in the Dem platform since the 90’s and before. And will be again in 08.
The nominee can trim and tweak the platform but neither one of the contenders ever had the ability to cut the core planks out of the platform.
On health care and other issues, getting a Dem in the whitehouse is the best we can hope for and allowing McCain and the corporate media and lobbyist to take control, is not something any of us can allow our petty differences to engender.
Layout some specific policies and planks which you think Clinton supporters would see as “originating” with Hillary and let’s see if any of them are not already covered in the platform drafts or included in countless previous Dem party platforms.
BTW: I don’t think I said or implied that HRC would not be visible at the convention. She will probably be very visible and very intent on unifying the party. No one knows what Bill will be doing but he is capable of political theater like no one else.
The repubs are desperately trying to find a way to keep Dubya away from their convention or barring that, to minimize his role to ceremonial.
“In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.”
–H.L. Mencken
July 10, 2008 at 9:19 pm #630811
charlabobParticipantEveryone but Kucinich caved on universal health *care* from the beginning. Universal Health Insurance is not the same thing. Forcing everyone to BUY insurance is especially not the same thing. :-)
July 11, 2008 at 12:02 am #630812
JoBParticipantKen,
you don’t get it do you?
it’s not blackmail to point out that Obama’s message did not carry a large percentage of the democratic vote.
but that sure is one way to write a lot of people off. Only one problem… you are going to need those people to win..
And those people just plain didn’t buy Obama’s slogans. Even when he spent more money. Even when he said the nomination process was over and she couldn’t win.
Now, you can choose to believe that those people went on supporting Hillary because Obama is black.. or you can ask yourself if his message just wasn’t selling everyone.
if it’s not, what is it going to take to get the job done? Because making insinuations about Hillary supporters and then blaming them if Obama doesn’t win just isn’t going to cut it.
At some point, those people are going to want something to believe in.. something more than he isn’t Republican.
As for applying pressure on the party platform being a futile exercise… You will never get everything you ask for Ken.. but if you ask for nothing, that is what you are going to get.
as for swing voters.. it is clear you don’t have much respect for them…
“Swing voters were taken in by the term “compassionate conservative” in 2000 and convinced that they were about to be attacked in their beds in Booger Fork, Ohio by primary colors on a damn chart in 2004.”
Yet you should unless you want to see a repeat performance in 2008.
It might be a good idea to come up with some kind of plan to catch their self interest.. especially if you are going to be knocking on doors.
I think it was you who quoted something earlier about patriotism being about having something to vote for..
as opposed to having something to hate.
July 11, 2008 at 12:06 am #630813
JoBParticipantKen,
I can’t speak for all Hillary supporters…
but I want to see some sort of viable plan connected with party platform promises..
i want to see a commitment to health care.
i want to see nutrition programs for the poor.
i want to see the end of no child left behind.
i want to see whatever the religious office is in our white house dismantled.
and that’s barely a start.
July 11, 2008 at 12:08 am #630814
beachdrivegirlParticipantJoB I dont think you get it.
Obama is the nominee.
He won the Democratic primary.
And I would hope that most Hillary *supporters* were smart enough to read about the issues and as long as that is the case, Obama will win those over. And those that decide not to support Obama because he is Black and not female are very racist and sexist and probably would have voted Republican anyways. (Not trying to generalize that Republicans are sexist and racist… just trying to point out that she was pulliing some Republican voters.)
I will be quiet now becuae Ken says it better than anyone and I am sure that he will be posting soon.
July 11, 2008 at 12:14 am #630815
JoBParticipantWell so much for giving anyone something to vote for…
JoB clicks her heels.. salutes properly in the direction of those who now call the tune.. whether they are members of the party or not… and quickmarches back to her garden…
now that was useful wasn’t it.
done.
July 11, 2008 at 1:08 am #630816
JoBParticipanti would ask you one more time to stop shooting yourself in the foot with your hatred of Hillary.
There are voters who will not vote for Obama because they don’t believe he is concerned about what matters to them.
They probably aren’t Republicans. They probably aren’t sexist. They probably aren’t racist. They just don’t see what is in it for them. So they may not bother to vote.
It’s not enough to be against something. If you want America to turn out in numbers, you need to give them something they can understand to vote for.
Campaigning on a slogan of change is all well and good.. but to make that real, there need to be actual changes.. not more of the same masquerading as positioning in the middle.
I actually have a reason for Hillary supporters to vote for Obama.
one more time…
“So i am asking Hillary supporters.. from all political persuasions.. to help move her dream one step forward by doing everything you can to help get Obama elected.”
July 11, 2008 at 1:37 am #630817
beachdrivegirlParticipantI dont have a hatred for HIllary. I just think it is funny how her supporters think they should change how elections have gone in the past because nobody can do the job unless it is Hillary….this is me gagging right there.
July 11, 2008 at 4:07 am #630818
JoBParticipantnow that’s adult.
i think you and i have ceased to have anything resembling productive conversation beachdrivegirl…
July 11, 2008 at 4:34 am #630819
beachdrivegirlParticipantmore so than talking about hot dogs
July 11, 2008 at 4:36 am #630820
ZenguyParticipantHey, hey, hey…don’t be talking bad about hotdogs now. That was a different topic.
July 11, 2008 at 5:15 am #630821
charlabobParticipantJoB — nobody hates Hillary.
BDG — everyone knows Obama is the nominee.
Why are we here again? Does anyone remember that famous old midwestern phrase, “I don’t chew my cabbage twice?” Hell, we don’t seem to be able to stop making oral cole slaw!
There are a few, vociferous, Clinton supporters, who call themselves pumas, who are begging the delegates to rethink their support of Obama, since he’s moved to the center. (He hasn’t moved anywhere, btw…listen to him read his book if you don’t believe me.) I believe their mantra is “We only need 138 delegates to change their votes.” They are a VERY SMALL number.
Other than that, we know who the nominee is. We know what the platform will say. (For example as far as I can tell, only Kucinich supports gay marriage–our platform will support civil unions and weasel word about everything else.) Our platform will support universal health insurance because we’re afraid of being called the “s” word (or, in the case of marriage, the “f” word.)
Now stop it and get on with the business of making sure that McSame flips and flops all the way back to Arizona.
:-)LOLhehehehehehe;-)
July 11, 2008 at 6:18 am #630822
HPMemberdubbya won many many votes from the bible belt,obama can not win the election if he doesnt get some of these votes, this should be his mission if he wants to win
July 11, 2008 at 7:09 am #630823
JanSParticipantCharlabob…the problem with him flip flopping back to AZ is…I don’t think AZ wants him anymore ;-)
July 11, 2008 at 2:27 pm #630824
JoBParticipantCharla..
I don’t want Hillary to get the nomination at this point.. the only possibility for that is too ugly to contemplate.. even in wishful thinking.
I had noticed this isn’t about the nomination any more.. it’s about the election this fall.
after participating in a few conversations.. and blatantly listening in on a couple of others.. i think we are kidding ourselves to just think that those who would have voted for Hillary will do so for Obama… and their reluctance has little to do with sexism or racism.
It was my failure to convince one of those that prompted me to think about what needs to change to give them reason to vote at all.
The response my post provoked only proved that they are right to feel marginalized by many of those who strongly support Obama… and thus right to feel their concerns will be equally marginalized.
in the words of some.. they are the losers… they should just suck up. when that is what is meant by unity.. it doesn’t look so inspiring.
labeling those who don’t think Obama offers them much as stupid, racist or sexist and therefore not worthy of consideration only further alienates them.
I am securely in the Obama camp. The supreme court is enough reason for me. But it isn’t enough for everyone.
HP.. is right. obama needs to appeal to the bible belt… and that exists in some surprising places. it often has more to do with actual values than what the right has chosen to label as values.
As long as those who campaign for Obama write off those who voted for Hillary they will fail to understand what might convince them to vote for Obama.
the assumption that the bible belt can only be reached through religious concessions is like most assumptions.. dangerous at best.
There are better ways… the argument i found is only one of those… I would hope those who want Obama elected this fall would stop to wonder why his appeal wasn’t universal and ask themselves what might appeal to those voters.
yes charla.. there clearly are those who have been motivated.. and still are to a very large extent.. by their hate for Hillary..
Unfortunately, like all hate.. that makes them blind to other possibilities.
That blindness is something no democrat can afford if we want Obama in the White House this fall.
July 11, 2008 at 2:56 pm #630825
charlabobParticipantHey, JoB–we’re pretty much in violent agreement. (I hate when that happens, don’t you? :-))
I was nonplussed when you started this thread (before I read the content) — the title sounded “puma-ish” and I had just learned about the push to get delegates to switch (back) to Clinton because of Obama’s unliberalness.
I have to say, I’m still on every list — part of my commitment to opp research, or general curiosity. So I’ve been contacted frequently by the pumas who want me to know what an unhealthy “moderate” Obama is. I’ve known that all along, which is why it was so hard to decide.
The campaign isn’t writing off Clinton supporters. In fact, we don’t seem to be writing off anyone — one of my many concerns about general wishi-washiness.
There’s a s—load of sensitivity on all sides, so I’m not surprised that Clintonites (and Edwards-ites and Dodd-ites) feel ignored at times.
It would help if Bill stopped being quite such a brat, but I don’t expect it. Frankly, I think he purposely did things that sabotaged her campaign because, deep down, he didn’t want another, more competent, Clinton as president. I’m sure it stings that most of us think Jimmy Carter was the last liberal president.
Listening to the Bernstein biography makes it clear that Hillary was the fighter in the family. Next in my queue is Hillary’s version.
There is still controversy about whether we have to pander to the far right inhabitants of the bible belt. Or whether they really believe what we’ve assumed they believe. I hope sorting that out may be one outcome of this battle.
I’ll always be far to the left of the democratic party, but it’s the only game in town. So I passionately support and speak for Obama. And I try not to listen too closely to everything he says. After all, he’ll have the same Pelosi- and Reid-led congress of wusses, and the battle will still be joined.
Remember how many dems supported the nomination of John Roberts. Hell, he was introduced by Chuck Schumer. The battle will not be over on November 6. It will just be starting.
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