Would anyone be interested?……

[danielleS]

So I was thinking, as a member of the white race, wanting to be part of the solution rather than the problem of white racism and all it intails, I’d like to open up an informal dialogue about such subjects as racism, white privilege, poverty, opportunity, (or lack thereof) and maybe even white guilt.

I am no expert on these subjects, but feel competent enough on them to facilitate an honest conversation about them. I know Im not the only white person who witnesses daily injustices pertaining to people of color in our society and I’d really enjoy getting together once a week? month? maybe on a Sunday morning here in West Seattle to progress with those in the same boat.

I know there are formal events like the White Privilege Conference and whatnot that address these topics, but I’d like to build a coalition of people in a more intimate setting. Uncomfortable, maybe. But necessary? Long overdue? Seems like it.

So anyone else interested?

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[charlabob]

Bump.

Yes! Sign me up — I used to belong to a “Nation” discussion group (from the Nation Magazine) and we talked about this a lot. One of the first things I, personally, would like to talk about is white privilege/inequity versus class privilege/inequity. I *suspect* that’s going to be a hot topic within and without the new administration.

(I’m disappointed you got no response–and hopeful that there were PMs from people who didn’t want to unleash the hounds of denial by perpetuating this thread.)

Could any Unitarians tell us if you have these going?

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[JoB]

i would also like to join this conversation.

there was an interesting piece on NPR yesterday or the day before about a study recently done in Canada looking at the difference between what we think we would feel and do when faced with racism and what we actually do that is disturbing… it seems we don’t walk our talk as much as we would like to think.

I would like to think i walk my talk… but in my heart i know that some days i struggle to do so…

i think the same is true of privilege… though i am often among the first to speak out when i see injustice related to lack of privilege… i choose my clothing to limit that prejudice towards myself…

oh.. don’t get me wrong.. i also choose clothing i like and that i hope looks good on me.. you can be well dressed and still have no fashion sense… but i admit that i learned at an early age how to use people’s prejudices to benefit myself by dressing well… and i also admit that when i find myself initially facing that prejudice i automatically mentally review what i am wearing that “tipped them off” that i don’t belong… and i can generally pinpoint my “mistake” within seconds.

To my credit.. that process generally makes me smile at myself.. and to their credit that smile often connects with the person who quickly forms a second opinion…

but i pander to prejudice in ways i am not entirely proud of…

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[TheHouse]

Do you hear the crickets?

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[JoB]

house..

nice to see you but i wish you had waded in with your thoughts instead of trying to kill the thread by being snarky…

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[charlabob]

Deleted by poster — who forgot her own forum “rules”. :-)

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[Anonymous]

I am not interested in even *one* meeting such as those proposed by danielleS.

I think urban, liberal, white people’s self-flagellation is irrelevant and boring, and the (white guilt)/(white hatred) of an individual white person is probably not so individual as he/she may think.

BTW, I am a member of a racial/ethnic minority: Native American.

Suggested reading:

“The End of White America?” by Hua Hsu

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200901/end-of-whiteness

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[JanS]

wow, Scott…you really have us pegged, don’t you. And we haven’t even met yet…Thanks….

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[JoB]

ScottB…

but would you be interested if the subject were racial discrimination among native american tribes and the issue of privilege as it applies to those tribes who were granted tribal status and thus have had access to economic opportunities denied other tribes… and how that privilege has become political clout that has been used to further discriminate against those native Americans not so privileged… to deny them access to the certification that would allow them to access privilege?

This subject is not limited to pasty white folks…

in fact, discrimination among competing factions of ethnic groups often exceeds that of interracial origin. Difficulties taking personal responsibility for both discrimination and abuse of privilege aren’t limited to one ethnic group…

Any time we separate individuals into us and them based on some arbitrary standard and not on individual merits, we are indulging in discrimination.

“I think urban, liberal, white people’s self-flagellation is irrelevant and boring, and the (white guilt)/(white hatred) of an individual white person is probably not so individual as he/she may think.”

don’t you think that merits discussion even if you might choose not to join it?

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[Zenguy]

Scott B. glad to see that you know all about everything and have no room to grow. Clearly you have mastered all as evidenced by your comments about the LGBT community. I am also Native American, along with many other things and gay as well and I know I still have much to learn.

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[alki_2008]

This thread is more confusing to me than it was when I read it this morning and there were only 2 comments.

So, what would the discussions be centered around again? About caucasian privilege alone or about all types of racism (ethnic, gender, sexuality)?

Thanks.

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[charlabob]

Alki, here’s my theory: if we ever get together and if we behave as progressives normally do, the discussions will be centered on whatever set of privileges whoever is there wnats to talk about. That’s what makes us fun (and frustrating). :-)

BTW, I don’t have guilt and I hardly ever flagellate. Any idea that’s what these discussions are about is BORINGLY knee-jerkedly obtuse. G-d I do love stereotypes, even about me.

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[Anonymous]

Well, I would be interested in knowing more about what the OP had in mind for these discussion get-togethers, considering it was her idea.

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[JoB]

charlabob…

as a theory i suspect that one is as good as any…

discussions are what you make of them, aren’t they:)

i would enjoy an honest discussion about just about any facet of this subject. even here:)

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[Anonymous]

And I would be interested in knowing more about what ScottB thinks instead of just assuming. This discussion has come up before and another person (non-white) made similar remarks. Basically get over ourselves and our obsession with how everything makes US feel.

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[mom2soren]

UW is offering a course on this topic right now, as it relates to healthcare:

NURS 550 White Privilege and Racism in Health and Human Services (3)

Explores relationships among the psychosocial health of people of color, American cultural patterns of intersecting forms of oppression (e.g., gender, race, and class) and the role of health professionals in defining, ameliorating and/or aggravating psychosocial distress. Credit/no credit only. Offered: jointly with WOMEN 550.

Instructor Course Description: David G. Allen

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[Cait]

Yeah, I’d like to know more about the original intent. There are some interesting conversations to be had when you realize that white is a race too. I’d be interested – I haven’t had a real conversation about this since I graduated last year and I feel my racial awareness skills going soft.

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[JoB]

mom2soren…

i think it’s wonderful both that this course is being offered.. and that you posted it…

cait…

i suspect all of our racial awareness skills could use a bit of updating.

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[danielleS]

Well, I think my original idea was kinda like what Cait was talking about. Basicly, I think too often, white is seen as a standard, rather than an ethnicity in itself. And uses of words like “ethnic” to describe haircare products in Bartell’s (and lots of other places) made for people other than white, is marginalizing to those people. I notice this subtle form of racism and others too. And I’d like to get together with other white people as a kind of fellowship for change and progression. I know that we can end the awful affects of racism in our country, but racism is a white problem. And I think it’s time that white people start talking about it.

I really would like to meet and share ideas, literature, and stories for the purpose of moving the goal of ending racism, by starting on a neighborhood level. Like I say, Im no expert. Just someone who has become aware that although we are all equal, the fact is that there are not equal opportunities and resources for everyone.

So this isn’t really intended to invite people who want to argue about whether or not racism still affects our society, or whether it can only be a white problem due to the characteristic of power in its definition. These things I already know. What I want is people who already accept those things as fact, and would like to be part of the solution, rather than the problem.

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[Dunno]

Danielle,

If you really want to make a difference, volunteer

where you are the minority. That’s what I do.

There are many place you can do that. Try a downtown shelter or many other organizations here in Seattle.

I happen to volunteer with youths and find it very rewarding.

Bring you idea’s to the 34th meeting?

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[danielleS]

Thanks Dunno, I do that. But still I see examples in everyday life of exclusion and discrimination. Of prejudice and misuse of power and it concerns me. And I think that it will not end on its own. I think it’s going to require white people to get together and start dealing with the harsh realities of our culture’s history, and current state.

Great article Scott B. I was affected by it.

So, anyone interested in getting together to start a dialogue, let me know. I recommend Peggy McIntosh’s essay “White Privilege: Unpacking the invisible knapsack”. You can easily find it online. It’s a good starting point for the conversation.

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[Anonymous]

danielleS,

Thank you for reading the article by Hua Hsu. Hua Hsu’s article has more eloquent and concise writing than I could manage about the issue(s).

I will read the Peggy McIntosh essay that you mentioned.

I am not very interested in arguing about the issue(s). I suggest others read what Hua Hsu wrote instead of hoping for an argument with me.

Here:

“The End of White America?” by Hua Hsu

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200901/end-of-whiteness

I should try to clarify: my main attitude about the race issue(s) is that I think white people don’t need to beat themselves up anymore about race issue(s), and that self-flagellation is what I find boring and increasingly irrelevant.

Full disclosure about my race/ethnicity etc.: my father is 4/4 German, my mother is 3/4 Inupiat(Eskimo) and 1/4 Irish, and they were married so I have my father’s last name. If you look at the fractions, I am 1/2 German, 3/8 Inupiat(Eskimo), and 1/8 Irish. That is a 5/8:3/8 ratio for anyone who hasn’t calculated the fractions, and if that provides an aha! moment, fine, but that 1/8 (or the 1/2, or even the 5/8) has not made a noticeable difference in my 51 years of life. I am assimilated, which has made quite a difference in my life.

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[JanS]

well, I certainly don’t feel “privileged” in my life…and we are all of some kind of ethnicity. I’m German, English, French. A friend is half german, half Puerto Rican, andother is half german, half Mexican,(they both look terribly white to me) yada yada yada…I don’t mean to make light of your ethnic background , Scott. What I’m saying is…we all need discussion, even you, as you seem to have some sort of negative feeling about “white” people, who may or may not be entirely “white” by ethnicity. What we “see” isn’t always what we get, for sure…

glad to see you’re still in the fray :)

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[Anonymous]

JanS,

I don’t have negative feelings about white people. I have never been able to finish reading “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee” because it is so sad, but war/conquest/defeat has always been part of life, so I don’t have any bitterness about subjugation of Native Americans in North America. That’s just what happened during that period of time.

I do wish immigrants would assimilate into our melting pot. That does not seem to be happening anymore.

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[charlabob]

Thanks to Scott and Danielle for their reading recs. Both should be required reading for anyone who wants to be thought of as a thoughtful citizen of the world. Not a flaggelatory word in either of them. :-)

I think post racial is an obvious concept to many folks under 40 (age cut-off because I first learned of it from the multiracial daughter of a date whose friends had decided that’s what they were.) That’s why I have so much hope — and why I’m so glad I’ll be around for part of the ride.

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