The Problem With Occupiers

[JoB]

dyn99…

if you invested half the time you have spent rebutting that which you admit you aren’t willing to invest the time to investigate…

you might learn something new

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[redblack]

JV:

didn’t your momma tell you that name calling isn’t nice?

no. my parents taught me that being an a-hole would likely get me punched in the mouth. so i try not to do that unless provoked.

look, you. cut it out with snarky comments about stinky hippies and people “just needing to get jobs.”

if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all. or at least engage in a conversation without casting aspersions.

at the very least, respect your fellow citizens enough to understand that they don’t always agree with you, and that that fact alone doesn’t necessarily make them wrong.

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[dyn99]

JoB –

If you spent any time coming up with solutions or looking at things from a few sides of the issue,

You would spend less time

Writing haikus

And more time

Coming up with ideas

That would help people and make the world a better place.

I am investigating. I am asking questions and want actual clarity and responses. I don’t just want one person’s perspective, I want multiple points of view. And there’s plenty of Occupy-sympathizers on this blog.

I learn from asking questions. Here I can ask questions of lots of people at one time. That is more efficient. And more interesting.

Unfortunately people like you prefer to simply put out snarky comments that don’t help.

But they do

Sound nice

In the form of a haiku.

**I am fully aware that JoB’s postings are not true to the haiku form. But they still remind me of them…**

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[redblack]

**I am fully aware that JoB’s postings are not true to the haiku form. But they still remind me of them…**

yeah. jo’s posts remind me of haiku, too.

but before you take lessons in etiquette and manners from JV, you might consider that people’s posting styles result from various factors.

for example, did you know that blind people can use the internet? and that, because of various devices that translate braille to digital text, their posting styles might look a little unorthodox?

now, i know that jo is not blind. but hopefully i made you think about the human factor for a second.

we are not robots, and we don’t always conform to standards, especially in such an informal setting.

and sometimes we argue viscerally, from the gut, and passion overrides spelling, grammar, and form.

“before you remove the mote from your neighbor’s eye” and all of that…

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[casaboba]

Wow, this thread is ? since the sun went down and the NCAA games ended. I hope that if you are a NCAA Basketball fan that your teams succeeded.

Dyn99, as you know your comments are your right to free speech/expression. Thank you for expressing them. I doubt though you achieve the answers you seek here from “multiple points of view.” However, I may be proven wrong.

IF you believe in freedom of speech; IF you believe in freedom of assembly, then mind the Occupy West Seattle movement no mind.

The “multiple points of view learning exchange” you desire is being demonstrated by Occupy. The constitutional freedoms (I assume) you value are being expressed by Occupy. Despite how screwed-up our two party system is the Republic tonight remains in good hands; for the very reasons you espouse. Occupy is also evidence of that.

Projecting your reservations & fears (skinheads, poop-throwers, Anarchists, etc.) about Occupy MAY occur. However, it MAY not. The people in the Occupy movement in West Seattle are your neighbors. Maybe not as wealthy as you? Maybe not as well formally educated as you? Maybe not as eloquent as you? Nonetheless, they hold the same individual rights as you along with reservations about our Democracy.

As I said in an earlier post, I have attended several Occupy meetings. I cannot begin to define the group or speak with precision about it. After attending the meetings I do not know if anyone I have encountered can.

Does this make Occupy nebulous? Yes, of course. Does this make Occupy somewhat ethereal? Yes of course. Does this make some people uncomfortable? Yes, of course (me included).

This said, I am not scared of Occupy. I am curious. I want to understand, but I have never had to listen so hard to glean a fragment of understanding. This doesn’t make them wrong. I have never met so many people who cared enough to take a LONG bus ride or a day off of work to attend a meeting.

I have come to the conclusion that maybe it’s time I practice active-listening (definition: “Listening with an ‘INTENT’ to understand.”). This does NOT mean however that I have stopped being critical. Just MORE precise, informed, and deliberate in my critique.

I began from a viewpoint not unlike yours and for my own satisfaction had to attend several Occupy meetings to begin to TRY and understand. I’m not sure where this journey of mine will lead me. I do know however I do not feel I have wasted my time. I have not thought as deeply on the issues which mutually confront our great Democracy in a long time. For that I have Occupy to again thank, and maybe you as well.

Happy Trails!

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[HMC Rich]

Funny enough, the people who are wanting understanding about the Occupy movement were quite negative about the Tea Partiers. Excuse me, Tea Baggers as many of you so eloquently wrote over and over and over… and over.

Also, the documentation of Occupy problems is incredibly high compared to the Tea Party movement.

Sit back and think for a moment. Many of us pick sides. Most of us agree that the right to assemble is wonderful part of country and history. How people choose to act when these public assemblies happen is another story.

The issue is the people who want to be left alone for the most part started speaking up because they saw the Federal Government moving in directions that they believed were detrimental. Many wanted Hope and Change, but after Bush and Obama, Pelosi, Reid, etc, many decided the Federal Government was out of control. They had a clear message.

Conversely, It seems to me the Occupy movement also evolved out of frustration with the countries current situation. From a lefty point of view, you do see millions of dollars being made which in their view came from bad policies, greed, and not enough proper oversight.

The two sides cannot fully accept each others premises. Nor should they, but there can be a few compromises.

Although there have been some minor incidents with the Local Seattle Occupiers, they have been more civilized than Oakland or New York. Funny enough, some of those movements were astro-turfed too, but unlike the people who complained about the Tea Party, I really don’t care if they were or not.

I suspect the forum writers, right, middle, and left help out their fellow citizens in a variety of ways. Some do it more openly than others. For others it is kept quiet, and some cannot give. So be it.

I was happy to see DBP, JoB, JanS, Celeste, Mike and a few others at the Pancake Breakfast at the Nazarene Church. I will never argue politics in person usually because I like to talk with people. Political discussions end up being divisive. I would rather enjoy peoples company, especially when attempting to help others.

As I said before, I think there can be some common ground found, but I do disagree with the loose platform provided by some of the Occupy movement groups.

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[dyn99]

I don’t have any specific problem with Occupy. I think they tap into the same discontent with our current situation and inequality that many of us feel.

I would say this – I think Occupy is largely becoming irrelevant because it doesn’t have a platform or really anything specific it stands for.

So that’s why I’m asking. I’m a pretty well informed citizen. I read a lot, have studied business, government, economics and politics, and I don’t have any real specific idea what Occupy stands for.

Unfortunately, it seems as if they’re right there with the Republicans of being the “informal” movement of “NO”.

I know that many Occupiers will probably hate me for that, but when all you stand for is “NO”, then you accomplish nothing other than noise making.

So I’d love to hear more specifically what they are for.

Marching around with signs is inherently good because it is exercising our constitutional right to free speech. But it does little to foster actual change.

If Occupy wants to become what the civil rights movement was, then it better come up with a platform, and fast. Their momentum has been fading for months, and will only become more irrelevant as time goes on.

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[JV]

Dyn, I think occupy will grow again soon because of the nice weather.

As for my comparisons and “name calling” my intent is to make you think about the net result of the group, and with whom you associate (even if in name only). If you are offended by it, that’s your choice. If it’s unfair or untrue, let’s debate the issue.

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[JV]

Just to make sure i don’t offend anybody, let’s take this imaginary scenario from my example in post #19;

FRIEND: “dude, I noticed that you are wearing only blue these days, and you’re calling yourself a Crip. Do you know what you are getting yourself into?”

ME: “yes, the Crips in west Seattle are good guys, and we just want to protect our neighborhoods.”

FRIEND: “okay, but I’ve seen some pretty disturbing stories about horrendous stuff they’ve been doing all around the country”

ME: “oh you must have been watching Fox News…more like FAUX NEWS!! See what I did there? I switched the spelling to make it seem as though they are an illegitimate news source! Clever huh?.”

FRIEND: “uh, yeah, original too. Anyway, the bad press is coming from everywhere, and I’m concerned that you have joined a group that isn’t exactly what you think it is.”

ME: “sure some other Crips are doing bad stuff, but my group in West Seattle is just a bunch of nice old ladies…I mean guys.”

FRIEND: “did you ever think about calling yourselves something else just to avoid being linked to the hundreds of crimes that your group commits? “

ME: “why do you hate nice old ladies?”

FRIEND: “I love nice old ladies…they bake great cookies…look, we are getting off topic here. Well, you do what you want, but just be aware of what it means to be a Crip, and when you go out advertising for more people to join your group, be aware that you’ll get some nice people, and you’ll also bring in the criminal element who is attracted to the violence that is in the news almost every day.”

ME: “I am oblivious to what you just said…why do you hate old ladies?”

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[DBP]

OK JV. Let’s debate the issue. I’ll start by posing a hypothetical.

Suppose I had compared you and your friends with, oh, say, Genghis Khan. And suppose I said that the main thing that differentiates you from Genghis Khan is time and distance, and that if you asked Genghis Khan’s friends about him, they’d probably say he was a good guy, too. A nice family man, etc.

How would you feel if I said something like that about you, JV? Would you be inclined to have a nice calm discussion with me about it? Would you be inclined to sit down and do your level best to delineate the points of difference between yourself and Genghis Khan for my edification?

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[JoB]

JV..

the net result i see from the Occupy movement is that they have people talking about issues and asking question that they haven’t asked before…

dyn99

which brings me to my comment to you..

what is more relevant than questions?

and btw..

thanks for seeing my posts as poetical

even if you ignore thoughtful content

people who don’t speak the way you want to be spoken to

often still have things to say

i was once a poet

though haiku was not my strong point

too structured

now though

my brain sees the world

in fragments

that have to be separated

to be recognized…

and that’s on a good day…

I am told it has relieved the hard cold edge of my intellect

by those who know what i used to write..

perhaps that’s a good thing

HMC…

i always enjoy running into you

it’s a good reminder that no matter how far apart we may be on the political spectrum

as people we share many of the same values

i have been pondering your tea party/occupy comparison

and it has raised questions for me

though likely not those you would wish…

If pressed…. I would have to say that for me

the difference between the two movement

is that while one has remained pretty much self funded and self directed

if what the Occupiers do can be called direction

the other was never self funded

and has been largely directed from the outside

One is looking for solutions

the other is promoting solutions

in time i suspect the balance of that last comparison will change

all political movements do evolve

I do confess my bias is towards inclusion

not exclusion

but then perhaps i have been as biased by the media presentation of the tea baggers

as some of the posters on this forum are of the media presentation of the occupiers…

what is troubling …

is that i got my impression of the Tea Party from FOX news

who one would assume was showing them in their best light ..

but they focused regularly

on the anger and the exclusionary nature of tea party events :(

i did attend one tea party event in Oregon with a friend

that didn’t change my perceptions

perhaps if i had gone with you I might have seen things differently…

i don’t know.

If i am to be honest here

i have to admit

that though i don’t know for certain

i have serious doubts that even attending a tea party event with you would change my basic objections

i do read the full content of the links you source..

and a little more besides

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[DBP]

Smitty said:

Truth be told, I do give at church (gasp – is that ok in N. Portlandia?) and give my “time and treasure” for Boys & Girls Club – and The Seattle Aquarium. Just treasure to the UW autism center.

Smitty, at the risk of embarrassing you, I just want to say that I’m really, really proud of you.

From here on out, every time you say something that gets my goat, I’m going to think, Yeah, the Smitster pisses me off sometimes. But on the other hand, how can I be mad at a guy who:

¶ Gives to his church (so the church can help people), and

¶ Supports the Boys & Girls Club (which keeps kids out of gangs), and

¶ Gives his time to the Aquarium (without which, Seattle wouldn’t be Seattle), and

¶ Is helping out in the struggle against autism?

 

 

The truth is, I can’t. I can’t be mad at you at anymore, Smitty.

You’ve just ruined everything.

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[redblack]

rich:

Funny enough, the people who are wanting understanding about the Occupy movement were quite negative about the Tea Partiers. Excuse me, Tea Baggers as many of you so eloquently wrote over and over and over… and over.

indeed.

i don’t currently align myself with either protest movement.

but let’s continue to compare the two, shall we?

the tea party’s basic argument is that “the rent is too damned high.” taxed enough already. government intrusion. fair enough? now, you might have noticed that their agenda dovetails nicely with some very wealthy cats in this country. you did notice that, right?

occupy’s beef is with the people that are transferring trillions of dollars from taxpayers into private hands. people like mitt romney. those people have effectively bought our democracy, and they’re handing us the bill for it.

Funny enough, some of those movements were astro-turfed too, but unlike the people who complained about the Tea Party, I really don’t care if they were or not.

do you have proof of this? the astroturfing, i mean? i believe some water and fertilizer may have been thrown on the OWS movement as it grew, but, as far as i know, no one funded its conception or promoted its agenda.

in contrast, the tea party movement was conceived and the name coined by an angry CNBC reporter, upset that the feds were talking about new regulations and taxes on investment income in the wake of TARP.

and, lord, how the money rolled in.

there’s your point of pride over the OWS movement and why you attempt to claim some kind of moral high ground over the people in OWS: money.

i’ll tell you this, though. teabaggers would never have the strength of conviction to gut it out in an urban setting. the kids who spent weeks in tents in public places might have some different notions about politics and entitlement. or maybe they’re looking for the right leader and she hasn’t yet presented herself. maybe not.

but you can’t deny that they have grit.

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[JoB]

smitty..

i promise not to be mad at you

just at what you sometimes say

after all

that’s the rules of this game

the offer of a cup of coffee

or even a beer

still stands

DBP…

very nicely done

our assumptions about who and what people are

too often get in the way

of discussing their ideas

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[JV]

Suppose I had compared you and your friends with, oh, say, Genghis Khan…

That would be a rational argument and a fair comparison IF, and only IF, I claimed to be a Khan-zian, or was a member of a West Seattle Genghis Khan-ers, or sent out flyers asking people to come join me and my Genhis Khan friends as we protest people who are pro-civilization.

I don’t claim to be part of a group of aimless, wandering, hoards. (No offense to Genghis Khan…they had a more focused goal than OWS)

But, let’s say I did claim to be a G-Khan-member. As I rallied people to my events, I WOULD have to take some responsibility for their bad deeds.

Furthermore, I would have to take some responsibility for the types of people I began to attract to The Junction in the future. Some of whom may be less interested in the peaceful demonstrating, and more interested in the raping and pillaging, for which Genghis Khan is well known.

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[JoB]

JV..

Oh my gosh!

Occupiers attracted grandmothers and grandfathers and mothers and fathers and children to the junction during their last event…

What?

you didn’t bother to look at the pictures of that event because you know who would show up?

The fact that grandmothers and grandfathers and mothers and fathers and children are in the junction every day is beside the point i guess.

so is the point that future events are likely to attract the same crowd the last one attracted…

lions and tigers and bears

oh my

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[JV]

JoB, read more, type less. I’ve covered all of your points in earlier posts. However, you mentioned children being at Chase bank, which reminded me of another issue I haven’t mentioned: involving your kids in your political battles.

That is yet another shameful strategy of those people. Let your kids be kids, and don’t drag them into your protests.

‘Nuff said.

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[DBP]

JV: I can see I’m not getting through to you on this channel . . .

The bottom line is that you’ve likened ordinary people in your own community — people whom you’ve never met personally and whose motivations you’re only guessing about — to another group (skinheads) that is openly racist and violent, and makes no bones about it.

Think about that now. Does that seem like the right way to open a respectful discussion to you? By likening people on this forum to racist thugs?

Unless you backtrack a bit and think better of that, it’s gonna be pretty hard for you to get any traction here. Why? Because every time you make a comment from here on out, people who were part of this discussion are gonna be thinking: “Hm . . . JV . . . JV . . . Oh yeah! That’s the person who can’t tell the difference between a grandma with a protest sign and a violent racist . . .”

See what I mean? You’ve already got a serious credibility problem, my friend. And by refusing to admit that you’ve made a mistake, you’re just making it worse.

Trust me; this is not a question of politics. It’s not even a question of reasoning. It’s a question of maturity. It’s a question of manners.

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[JoB]

lions and tigers and bears, oh my

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[dhg]

OK JV, got the metaphor. Here’s the flaw:

We’re not members of the Crips, we’re members of the Nuns of St. Ignasious. There are some nuns who should not have been ordained but they are not in sufficient number for the rest of us to leave the order.

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[JV]

Dbp, okay, I’ll backtrack for a moment just so you can see the point here. I’m comparing them to group XYZ who has a public relations problem and a long rap sheet.

If you want to be part of group XYZ, you can’t take only the good parts and pretend the rest doesn’t exist.

If they can’t see that, neither you nor I can help them.

My comparison was clear, but I regret giving you something else to cling to, allowing you to avoid the larger issue.

So now that it’s clear, please feel free to address the larger issue.

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[DBP]

JV: My main objection is not to your arguments but rather to your demeanor on this forum. In this thread, you made an analogy between a loose-knit group of protesters here in West Seattle — whom you don’t seem to know very much about, judging by your comments — and a group racist thugs.

That was extremely offensive and inappropriate.

When you decide to address that objection, or otherwise apologize for your remark, then I’ll be happy to address your “arguments.”

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[dhg]

Fox News went to the supreme court arguing their right to lie. The court agreed with them. They see it as freedom of speech. Fox doesn’t approve of the occupiers and exploit every opportunity to put them in a bad light. If you get your info from Fox (just a wild guess on my part) you do not know the truth of the matter.

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[JV]

DBP, I’m pretty sure I backtracked my comments and called them group XYZ instead of skinheads, but I’ll clarify one more time just because I’m interested in you getting past being offended so we can continue with this discussion.

Do I believe little old ladies in West Seattle in front of Chase bank are skin heads or Crips? NO.

Does the Occupy movement have a terrible reputation? YES.

Did I get offended by your Genghis Khan comments? NO, I just blew your argument out of the water and moved on with the debate. (Adults don’t squash debate just because they claim to be offended.)

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[JanS]

I keep thinking the old saying “There are none so blind as those who will not see.”….

JV…do you know one person in the Occupy movement…have you engaged in a personal conversation with even one person?

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