Rant: seattle summer streets

[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

i really would like to see a breakdown of that “make the city money” thing on the Mariners…

there was substantial public money seeding this “money maker”. I suspect the “city” has yet to break even.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Safeco field cost 517 million and will be paid for by 2011 (five years ahead of schedule). name any other investment of that magnitude in the city, to get paid off that quickly and begin turning a profit. It is considered in the business world to be a major success. And that is just on behalf of the city, and doesn’t consider all the revenue generated for local businesses.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Also, lucky for you I actually took a course in college on the Economics of Sports. I was as surprised as you are about to be at how much money major league sports teams can make money for cities like Seattle. The biggest city revenue maker are the tax on the ticket sales themselves (average selling price of $58/each). Then we also have the car rental tax that visitors paying, the lodging tax that visitors are paying (estimated to be a revenue of over $42,000 a game), and the additional sales tax that is being paid by our out of town guests. Without major league teams such as the Seahawks, the Mariners, and now the Sounders, like any other major league sports team holding city, Seattle would suffer.

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[JoB]

Did that course factor in the increased traffic congestion and the costs associated with that? Or the cost of the bus service that the city ran last year? Or????

i suspect the numbers are highly influenced by the factors chosen for consideration.

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[beachdrivegirl]

The class was about sports in general not the Mariners. It was actually a very informational class. And yes in fact, the class did take EVERYTHING into consideration’ that is how come it was a university 400 level course. It explored economics to an entirely new level. I also would like to challenge the questions you pose. Did you know that metro and sound transit has its busiest days on game days busing people from out of town such as Kent, Tacoma, or Everett?!? Without game days our metro system would suffer! And how the heck does traffic congestion cost the city money? If anything it makes the city money. Sitting in traffic uses gas. Gas costs money. Gas is highly taxed. Taxes make the city money. Therefore, traffic congestion makes the city money.

And on a side note to steer this back on track which was the point that the Alki Car Free day cost the city money and the M’s make the city money another example would be this:

Alki took away patrons from local businesses. And according to two different sources not only took away revenue from business owners but also employees (minimum wage employees). All three major league teams in Seattle besides bringing in tax revenue also bring jobs. These jobs go further than employees of restaurants, stadiums, and hotels but even the part time job of working a parking lot. I work right by the stadium and see all of these parking lots that are being worked by young adults. Without these games our unemployement rate would be even higher!

I have to ask, are you more concerned about your personal game day hardship or the benefit of the community?> I know where I stand and that is right by my community.

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[tsunaminw]

I have stated my views in extreme detail numerous times but from what I can tell some people here still have a mental block and are unable to get it.

I have owned many businesses myself and always support the little guy. I think they are the foundation of our economy, and pay extra to patronise a local store rather than drive to Safeway at the top of the hill. I selfishly want them to make it because I like walking to them and if they leave I end up driving more. Hmm, sounds pretty green to me in spite of my disgust at this groups typical tactics. I have also made a living based on tips and know that a slow day hurts every level, not just the owner(thank you beachdrivegirl for mentioning this key point).

I don’t think on a car free day I should have to drive when I otherwise would not.

Show me in writing where it says I can leave the car where it is on the street. I have heard a few mention it here that this would be allowed. I have also responded by saying it would have blocked the entire section left open for traffic if I had, and telling the tow truck driver someone on a blog said it is ok wouldn’t fly.

But like the emails I sent the advertised person in charge of this event asking for clarification, I get no response. Typical.

I think it even more ludicrous to make me drive to clear a road for walkers and bicycles when a perfectly good boardwalk and bike path that runes for miles exists right next to the street. This is pure stupidity, and no option like this exists at any other location for this event. I understand closing the roads at the junction for events. Down here? Makes no damned sense.

The “reason” for this event is bogus just using my example alone and how it affects the people who live here. Take away the reason and stop calling it car free day. It is still just as stupid, but isn’t a blatant deception either.

Now, a recap because the next post will ask another silly question and I will need to repeat it anyway.

This event here is held right next to a bike path and boardwalk, why is it necessary even in the slightest to close the road for people to walk and ride down it, unless it is a marathon and the closure is for 2 hours or so.

You want traffic eased? You want to create class envy and act like the business owners and locals living on Alki are bad, lucky, don’t appreciate what they have and should suck it up etc.?

How about you attack the condo owners near the Duwammish head that have that entire length of road, about a mile long or more, blocked off as no parking. They did that to limit traffic(how’d that work out for you eh?) and even blocked a sign indicating the exit for Alki beach on the I5 and the west Seattle bridge.

Those are the selfish ones creating alot of the traffic mess. But most of the questions I have had, the solutions mentioned, the clarification needed have done un-responded to by all of you. You just want to attack my delivery, try and figure me out, assume I’m “Mr.angry”, don’t appreciate what I have, or think it is only mentioned out of selfish reasons.

That is a simple minded easy way out that requires no thinking or work on your part. It leaves the situation as is, and allows you to point at me and ignore the problem.

And worst of all, many still want to blow off all of these by saying “c’mon people, its just one day”.

Truly pathetic.

This isn’t downtown next to the stadium. I could argue that one all day too, but it is irrelevant and hardly a close comparison in any form.

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[Dunno]

JoB,

You don’t think the city has made money from the Admissions Tax? Beach Drive girl, you’re on the mark and don’t forget several of my friends that are SPD and State Patrol making good side money paid by the Mariners and others. JoB, the busses

are packed and many from WS use the water taxi.

On non game days I never see so many riding the bus at 9:30pm.

As far as the Alki event, I’d like to hear direct from the business’s. Otherwise I know my parents who live there enjoyed a calm Suday! I suppose that was worth $20,000 right there.

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[FullTilt]

No, the city has made no money from admission tax on Safeco. Probably never will. admission tax is .5%, the cost of the stadium was 517 million to tax payers, the most expensive baseball park in the world at the time. It is going to take a long time for pennies a ticket to equal 517 million.

http://www.seattlepi.com/safeco/stadium/timesafe.shtml

Qwest field was a bargain at only 300 million to taxpayers. Built to replace a stadium that the city tore down before they had even finished paying for it.

SO nearly a billion dollars for three stadiums for the rich can play games while a minority of the area residents watch. 20k doesn’t really seem that expensive when compared to this.

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[beachdrivegirl]

FullTilt that link is from 1999 and is outdated.

Actually, the Food & Beverage tax (.5%) and car rental tax @ 2% are what arebeing used to pay for the stadium.

Originally, it was said that it woudl be paid off by 2016; however, more recent reports estimate that it will be paid off five years early in 2011 which is pretty dramatical.

And for those of you really concerned about your money going to this rich person play ground think of it this way… even if you eat out $100/wk for a year your annual contribution to the stadium is a whopping $25.

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[beachdrivegirl]

And that admission tax that you speak of is set to expire when the bonds are set to expire in 2011.

However, in the past the City of Seattle has used the Admissions tax for the Arts, which imo is pretty cool, imo.

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[tsunaminw]

using the tax or cost of a stadium to justify stupid spending on something else reminds of the “two wrongs dont make a right” saying my dad used to tell me as a kid.

Why would you try and use what you consider one mistake as a way to justify another?

Is that really the best argument you can come up with? If so, your really making this too easy.

Can you talk about the one issue without trying to use another example? Are you able to recognize bad spending in one area alone, all by itself?

This throwing up other stuff is a smokescreen to divert attention, and forces others to continue bringing it back to the real issue at hand.

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[JanS]

wow..post 186…and the event is over…done. Now go work within, so that if you truly think this is a waste of money, get it changed to your satisfaction.The harping, wringing of hands, aluding to other’s stupidity on here gets one nowhere, and doesn’t take care of the problem as you perceive it, now, does it?

We ALL get your point, but WE can’t change things.Now is the time to take this to the powers that be.Or as Mahatma Ghandi said, “Be the change you want to see in the world.”

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[JoB]

JanS…

i have to admit… i hear his point.. but i don’t “get” it.

the bike and walking lanes barely manage the bike and walking traffic on a normal beach day… adding more people on foot and on bikes to the mix.. which is what this event is supposed to do .. and expecting the existing lanes to handle the added traffic doesn’t make sense.

tsunaminw says of his car … “it would have blocked the entire section left open for traffic” if he had not moved it… If his car was in the middle of the remaining lane for car traffic.. it probably really needed to be moved for the event to function.

As for business owners… this event is an opportunity.. and if their regular way of doing business is impacted.. then thinking outside the box to attract more business is probably a great idea.

i want to know how Full Tilt’s stretch ice cream bike did… i have heard he was there:)

Instead of whining about an event that seems to have been reasonably successful and popular.. perhaps finding ways to make it easier to attend and therefore more economically viable for local businesses would be a good idea…

I would love to see a 4th of july party on Alki next year…. complete with beer gardens and food booths and barbershop quartets and volley ball games and .. and.. and…

if there was a convenient way to get there and a reasonable assurance that i could get home when i needed to.. i would attend.

I love a good party.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

it is difficult to find current info on the economic impact of the Mariners…

but here is a current article on how our city is managing game day congestion…

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-6959-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2009m4d14-Government-drops-ball-of-bad-planning-on-Mariners-fans

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[JoB]

tsunaminw…

this is a street fair. Have you never been to a street fair before?

that is where they open the street to people so more people can attend.

i have attended many street fair events that were in areas where businesses that sold food were located. many of them took the opportunity to sell street food versions of their food at a booth outside their place of business… others gave out discount coupons good for that day during what are typically slower hours… or discount coupons for off traffic hours that were good for a limited time… still others served a mini-menu designed to turn tables faster…

the local grocery could give out a coupon for a discounted “box lunch” option…

businesses that sell goods could have booths on the street that featured discounted items.. and might lure people inside for other items…

the possibilities are endless. merchants in the junction do it every year…

if you are a business owner.. you can complain about business during a street fair or you can make something positive out of it… you always have a choice.

if i was a business owner, i would be putting pressure on the city for better public transit options during the next street fair… so i could increase my business.

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[tsunaminw]

Call it what you like, it changes nothing I have said.

I have mentioned the negatives that made me rant in the first place. I have mentioned solutions that if the event continued could alleviate my issues with it.

This area is different than many, some good, some bad. Ignoring them and using the term street fair as an excuse is lame.

It wasn’t a street fair. It was a car-free day.

There were very few retail booths except Coastal, most were freebie booths with environmental or political themes and did not help anyone here in the neighborhood. Oh, they do a bike checkup and tuneup, yea, that warrants a street closure. Jesus are you kidding me?

Why make a business that already pays rent and employees pay more to move the stuff across the street, have additional staff, and get right in your face when they otherwise wouldnt have to if you just let them do it the same as any other day?

The only reason any of it was necessary was to counteract the stupid event!

Some added events like the bike demo and skate ramp helped and were enjoyable and I have said as much.

But these did not take place but in one small area, did not warrant such a large street closure, and have not been necessary for the Bike show, car show, art shows, pirate landing or any other event. Not when the areas down by the bathhouse allow for an event like a street fair without the need for the street.

This is my whole point, done differently, this event could happen without affecting the street, which affect business, me, etc.

Public transportation is fine, even the water taxi shuttle was full only a few times that day as I watched it pass my door. The standard city bus is more crowded. It runs past every day and has little effect either way on impacting our local shops.

Sorry, but like the freeways downtown, if you try and tell me more buses and bicycles will solve everything, and we should limit cars im gonna puke. Your going to have to show me one city here in the states where this is true. And dont bother bringing up Portland, Ill dump another 190 posts on you proving otherwise.

Ill add

“its a street fair” to the list of

“its just one day”

“Im sure it will be fine”

etc.

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[GenHillOne]

“STILL NOT HAVING ANY SOLUTIONS” – tsunaminw, is your only solution to not have the event then?

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[tsunaminw]

Are you really going to read what you choose, ignore the solutions I have mentioned and be so uninterested that I have to copy and paste everything over again?

I have never said my only solution is to not have the event.

But if you wont read what is already written, why would I waste more time and do it again. What guarantees do I have you will pay attention this time?

Most of this entire thread could have been summarised in 1 page. That it went to 7 pages is mostly due to off topic issues and people trying to brush it off and change the subject.

If it hits 200 it draws attention, but wasn’t needed except for responses like the one above. Over and over again.

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[Dunno]

Jo B,

Great idea for the 4th of July, like the Tacoma

Freedom fair in Old Town. Only problem, you’ll need 3 to 4 X’s the police you had on car free day. Being a holiday, you’ll pay double time to all. Need big sponsors that are had to come by.

Maybe Full Tilt could underwrite???

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[GenHillOne]

Sorry, I guess I lost your suggestions in the 48 posts of arguing, but that’s what I’ve gleened from them.

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[JoB]

tsunaminw…

it is difficult to see any positive solution you have mentioned when it is buried by such a large number of negative name calling posts…

adding cars to a street fair stops it from being a street fair… and no matter how you manipulate the title.. when you close a street to vehicular traffic and open it to pedestrians and bikers.. it’s a street fair.

you just p.. off everyone.. walkers, bikers and drivers… if you add cars to the mix.

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[JanS]

Gen Hill One, it sounds like that. What I hear him saying is that he doesn’t care if they spend 20K on paint or whatever, just as long as nothing impacts him. I have no idea if he’s trying to work with the city to change things, but it SEEMS that he’s perfectly happy to just keep complaining, and telling people that they’re not hearing him. Guess what? We are hearing him, over and over again. Now that you have ranted, tsunaminw, what are you doing specifically to get it changed? That was my point, which you obviously didn’t get, or don’t care about. Would you be happy if you’d be allowed to leave your car in front of your house? If it didn’t inconvenience YOU? Is that what you’re saying? No matter what you are saying it’s coming across as NIMBY…and therein lies the problem?

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[tsunaminw]

Yes well if you pick and choose, then come in at the end and make up your own summary you have that right. I can’t stop you.

I think repeating myself is annoying enough people as it is, if you are interested and not just simply curious then you wont ask me to do it again.

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[JoB]

Dunno..

wouldn’t it be wonderful if full tilt was doing well enough to underwrite that event?

i don”t know if it is kind to wish that for them.

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[alki_2008]

Wow, there were a lot of replies during the time I composed mine…sorry if I’m repeating something after post 189.

Dunno As far as the Alki event, I’d like to hear direct from the businesses. Then by all means, go and ask them. Just because they don’t participate in an online forum doesn’t mean that what tsunaminw and I have heard at the businesses themselves isn’t valid. We both asked different businesses, and we passed that information to this forum.

JoB More of Alki is closed because there is more of Alki to close…and the part of Alki that makes the most sense for closure also happens to be the part that has businesses…

I don’t think so…also, note the time that the streets are closed:

— U-District – (0.25 mi, 9am-4pm) — University closed between 45th and 50th. There’s a whole row of small restaurants between 50th and 51st, a few more at 52nd. 45th to 41st is lined on both sides of the street with restaurants and shops. Why didn’t they close University between 52nd and 41st?

— Rainier – (0.8 mi, 11am-3pm) — Rainier closed from Alaska to Orcas for only 4 hrs. The southern half of the closure has very few shops/restaurants and is not a business/shopping “core”.

— Greenwood – (1.1 mi, 6pm-9pm) — Greenwood closed between 87th and 65th for only 3 nighttime hrs. South of 84th is mainly auto repair, houses/apartments, a bank, a library, a masonic lodge, a church, and a fire station, with only a smattering of shops/restaurants. They should at least stop at 75th (close 87th to 75th) so the church and fire station aren’t in the blocked-off area.

— Alki – (2.2 mi, 9am-5pm) — Alki closed from 63rd to California. There are NO BUSINESSES East of 57th until you get all the way to Alki Tavern on Harbor. So why don’t they close just 63rd to 57th? There aren’t a lot of residents parking on those streets, so the impact would be less…and the non-blocked streets would allow people to park pretty close and still reach the ‘business core’, so maybe they wouldn’t be as adverse to coming and the businesses might not suffer so much.

— Events in parks — no shops or restaurants there.

and if their regular way of doing business is impacted.. then thinking outside the box to attract more business is probably a great idea.

So, the businesses need to spend additional dollars for special marketing? Do you know how much it costs businesses to mail out information advertising a special event, or to even send out an email blast?

the bike and walking lanes barely manage the bike and walking traffic on a normal beach day

What? The lanes manage the traffic fine…and would be better if people actually walked on the foot side, and biked on the wheels side. And the crowd is less on that “only one day” than on a “normal beach day”, so the boardwalk was very open and the street was not necessary for overflow. I don’t understand continuing to make assertions of what the day was like on Alki when you weren’t here to see it?

If his car was in the middle of the remaining lane for car traffic.. it probably really needed to be moved for the event to function.

Uhm…yeah…that brings the discussion full circle to why residents have to move their cars for an event in the first place.

I’m starting to find it tiresome when posts are made that have no bearing on reality. Sometimes we all say things that just don’t hold up to argument, and it’s really better to just admit defeat than to change the subject…and it’s inane to throw out some other argument when our initial arguments are blown out of the water by “actual facts”.

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