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February 26, 2011 at 7:55 am #717929
dobroParticipant“There are plenty of us morons out there.”
Just for the record, I wasn’t calling you, Rich, a moron in my post that referenced that word. And I am not attacking anyone here personally in my postings. I don’t even know you! I think the only person I’ve called any names was hooper when he appeared with a blizzard of right wing talking point posts and I called him a troll. That was undiplomatic of me.
February 26, 2011 at 5:08 pm #717930
JoBParticipantevery day i sit down to my computer and pull up the day’s news… and every day i am appalled at a new abuse of power by tea party candidates.
February 28, 2011 at 1:28 am #717931
MarkAngelloMemberJob, I must respectfully disagree with you. There is no abuse of power by the Wisconsin gov and legistlature. They are correcting long-standing abuses of power by left-leaning democrats and union milkers of us innocent taxpayers. It’s about time!
In WI the unions FORCE local city gov’t to pay $30,000 for EACH TEACHER’s healthcare premiums yerarly. The WI gov said on the radio last week that it costs only $19,000 for the same insurance in the free market. Guess what? The same liberal union OWNS the insurance company! Gasp. How corrupt is that?
That’s what I’m talking about. It’s long overdue.
Surely you, JoB, do not approve forcing cities to spend $30,000 for what is worth only $19,000, do you? Only a liberal powerhungry thug would.
February 28, 2011 at 2:36 am #717932
JoBParticipantMarkangello…
“I must respectfully disagree with you. There is no abuse of power by the Wisconsin gov and legistlature. They are correcting long-standing abuses of power by left-leaning democrats and union milkers of us innocent taxpayers.”
gasp.. had you spent more time in High School Civics class you would have acquired the tools to evaluate the argument you just made.
February 28, 2011 at 3:21 am #717933
MarkAngelloMemberLet us parse that which JoB refused to admit. Firstly, there is no abuse of power by the Wisconsin gov and legislature. That means they are doing exactly what the state constituton and federal constitution permit or require and the courts agree.
Secondly, it is a true statement that the they are in fact correcting the actual abuses of power by leftwingers over the decades. I think of the speech by the WI gov last week exposing the union insurance scam. So I confront JoB and liberals with another “inconvenient truth”, job. Surely you, JoB, do not approve forcing cities to spend $30,000 for what is worth only $19,000, do you? Only a liberal powerhungry thug would.
This is an honesty test. Let’s see how you do!
February 28, 2011 at 4:20 am #717934
redblackParticipantSurely you, JoB, do not approve forcing cities to spend $30,000 for what is worth only $19,000, do you? Only a liberal powerhungry thug would.
you do know how contracts work, don’t you?
the other inconvenient truth – for you, markangello – lies in the fact that teachers’ salaries are negotiated and agreed to on a local level. the blanket statement about $30,000 worth of benefits might be true in kenosha, but it’s not true in green bay.
let’s also not forget the fact that teachers’ health care benefits likely benefit their entire families, as well, and they’re negotiated with private insurance companies based on the best group rates they can get with a contract.
but we can’t talk about the cost of health insurance as a cause, now, can we? too inconvenient.
also note that teachers’ gross annual wages in wisconsin range from about $29,000 to $69,000 depending on what districts they teach in, what level of school they teach, and how long they’ve been teaching.
February 28, 2011 at 5:32 am #717935
JoBParticipantMarkAngello…
convening the State House for a few minutes to quickly pass through a controversial bill without debate isn’t an abuse of power?
but doing business with a full house and senate and full debate is?
Now that is an abuse of logic if i ever saw one ;->
February 28, 2011 at 5:33 am #717936
JoBParticipantMarkAngello..
btw..
the frame the debate with a gross misrepresentation of limited facts tactic isn’t going to fly here…
but post your heart out anyway.
it amuses me.
February 28, 2011 at 5:47 am #717937
JanSParticipantI would like a link to the statistics about what Wisconsin pays PER TEACHER for health insurance. I’d like to see that in writing. Anyone can pull numbers out of a hat. $30k a year translates to $2500/mo for health insurance…I’m sure there are premiums like that, but it does seem very strange..paying more for health insurance than what the teacher’s actual salary is.
MarkAngello, I’m going to guess that you are young, and probably attended a school that no longer teachers civics classes, or history classes…I’m just guessing, but I’m betting you aren’t part of the generation that was taught about what unions did for this country. The 40 hour work week is one of them…weekends off, another. And then there’s safety regulations in the workplace, in factories. Oh, but left leaning liberals must be the only one’s who care about that stuff, according to you. The unions fought for those things..are you ready to give them up?
February 28, 2011 at 3:42 pm #717938
JoBParticipantMarkangelo…
A little dose of truth never hurt anyone…
http://tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS?OpenDocument
It seems Gov Walker doesn’t even bother to find out what the contracts the Union he is trying to break contain..
telling a lie enough times still doesn’t make it the truth…
And those Faux commentators.. Limbaugh, Hannity, O’Reilly… LOL.. they’re union guys ;-> ;->
my thanks to JanS for digging the dirt in the wee hours and posting it on Facebook.
February 28, 2011 at 4:15 pm #717939
JoBParticipantside note.. but germain
what the Koch brothers put up
anonymous took down.
they still have a mortar and brick presence
but no website.
follow the money.
the money for the tea party and this supposed tea party revolt leads right back to the Koch brothers who have their eye on the privatization of public services and assets.
February 28, 2011 at 4:33 pm #717940
MarkAngelloMemberJOB–convening the State House for a few minutes to quickly pass through a controversial bill without debate isn’t an abuse of power?
You are mistaken again. This is one of the most fully debated bills in WI history. The legislature kept open 24/7 to debate. The Dems / liberals put up all kinds of amendments which were voted down. The taxpayers won!
Job Now that is an abuse of logic if i ever saw one
No, Job, you never recognized it before. The Tea Party and independents are taking back America for the worker one state at a time. Now about Washington…
February 28, 2011 at 4:44 pm #717941
sydneyMember@JanS, We no longer have the right to a 40-hour workweek…we lost that during the Buschwa administration.
February 28, 2011 at 4:55 pm #717942
redblackParticipantmarkangello: jo is referring to this:
The 51-to-17 vote just after at 1 a.m. in the Assembly drew boos and shouts of “Shame! Shame!” from Democrats who said that leaders had abruptly cut off debate and prevented more than a quarter of the legislators from casting votes.
shame? republicans in wisconsin don’t know the meaning.
The Tea Party and independents are taking back America for the worker one state at a time. Now about Washington…
really? how exactly does eliminating people’s right to collective bargaining and demanding wage and benefit concessions help workers?
let me fix your quote:
The Tea Party and independents are taking back America for the rich campaign donors one state at a time. Now about Washington…
what about washington?
check out this graph from this article before you say anything else about taxpayers heaping entitlements on liberals and democrats.
February 28, 2011 at 6:02 pm #717943
MarkAngelloMemberRB said “The Tea Party and independents are taking back America for the rich campaign donors one state at a time. Now about Washington…”
I dare say the richest donors are big union bosses and certain leaders in big business getting rich on gov’t largess. Rush Limbaugh reported that the wealthiest political donors are Democrats. I add they got their bucks at the expense of us working people.
Dems are for tax and spend programs to keep the recipients voting for them. I am independent of that. I work for a living.
Thanks for your graphs. I see that both reps and dems areas pay taxes and get benefits… with reps counties getting more. Want a better suggestion? Cut taxes on everybody. Weaken the death grip of gov’t worker unions on the budget and let people work free of gov’t largess. We the people benefit from that. Sorry about the gov’t freeloaders. Maybe they can get real jobs too… in the private sector!
February 28, 2011 at 6:33 pm #717944
MarkAngelloMemberAlso let me clear up a lot of misinformation about so-called collective bargaining. No one is trying to abolish it. The voters are trying protect themselves from it.
How? Firstly, we don’t want to have to join a union and pay dues if we don’t want to. Let each worker decide.
Secondly, we want to vote for ratification of the union every year or two, not just leave it in place ruling over us workers.
Thirdly, we don’t want our dues to be used for causes we detest like homosexual special privileges, unmarried benefits, and leftwing politicians, and baby-killing… that’s abortions.
Wait! Guess what? We fought and won that in court already. Who opposed it? The unions and liberals.
And we want full financial disclosure of where our union dues go and the chance to view the books. Oh wait. We earned that too. But the union thugs try to stop the working man from inspecting the books. All that corruption waiting for an honest union man to delve into it. It’s enough to make a tax-and-spend liberal cringe.
Oh wait! They are… in Wisconsin, in Ohio, in Montana…
February 28, 2011 at 6:36 pm #717945
redblackParticipantI dare say the richest donors are big union bosses and certain leaders in big business getting rich on gov’t largess.
you would be wrong about the unions.
and that’s easy for rush limbaugh to say. he’s a member of AFTRA.
Dems are for tax and spend programs to keep the recipients voting for them.
i vote for tax increases to benefit my city and state; to make sure that no one falls into poverty if they run on hard times (private charity certainly isn’t keeping people off of the streets or helping them pay the rent); so that teachers are paid well enough to not be under constant threat of financial hardship; to ensure that industry doesn’t poison my food or water; to make sure the lights stay on for everyone; to make sure infrastructure doesn’t fall down around us.
(which is getting pretty hard to do without a revenue stream. the governor has already cut the state’s budget to the bone.)
but i joined a union to provide for myself. i don’t use welfare, but i’m glad it’s there for people who need it. what’s that phrase? “there but before the grace of god go i?”
regarding the graph: what you see is that the republican counties receive twice what they pay out in taxes, and all the while they whine about taxes. if you read the article, you’d see that blood-red republican yakima county receives more in DSHS benefits than it pays in taxes. (that’s “welfare” to most people in washington.) and they receive funding for their public schools on top of that.
meanwhile, here in democratic king county – the 13th largest county in the u.s. – we receive $0.62 for every dollar we pay in taxes. our public schools survive on $6500 per student per year – a bargain. there is no more to be cut from our local budgets without causing serious damage to the school system and hard working people’s lives.
but that’s the goal, isn’t it? and the sooner you admit that to yourself, the sooner you’ll see how wrong it is.
the republican counties suck down an average of 5 figures per student per year. so yes, let’s cut taxes. let’s start by paying each county back exactly what it pays to olympia. then we can see what kind of surpluses we can cut.
i’m guessing republicans aren’t going to take that challenge. they’re too dependent on the state’s largess.
Sorry about the gov’t freeloaders. Maybe they can get real jobs too… in the private sector!
looks like i hit a nerve. you’d understand how ridiculous that statement is if you weren’t angry.
February 28, 2011 at 7:15 pm #717946
redblackParticipantHow? Firstly, we don’t want to have to join a union and pay dues if we don’t want to. Let each worker decide.
fine. don’t join a union. [edit: unless you want a job with government – which you guys detest, anyway. why would you want to work for caesar?] good luck negotiating a wage and benefit package.
here’s a fun fact: for labor (manufacturing, construction, etc.) the average annual income for a union household is $47,000.
the average annual income for a non-union household is $37,000.
which sector has more economic power?
Secondly, we want to vote for ratification of the union every year or two
no. i can’t vote on the existence of your church or the local walmart or bank of america. the constitution guarantees the right of association, doesn’t it? you can’t vote on the existence of my or any other union.
Thirdly, we don’t want our dues to be used for causes we detest
“our?” are you actually in a union?
like homosexual special privileges, unmarried benefits, and leftwing politicians, and baby-killing… that’s abortions.
your dues don’t fund any of those things, except political contributions. as soon as you kick the koch brothers and freedumbworks out of the campaign business, we won’t need unions to back liberal candidates.
here’s another fun fact: in the 2010 midterms, the u.s. chamber of commerce alone spent $34 million dollars on conservative candidates and causes. SEIU and AFSCME spent $15 million and $11 million respectively.
which groups do you think support actual wage-earning working people?
http://allisonkilkenny.com/2010/10/false-equivalency-watch-union-versus-corporate-spending/
regarding abortion as a medical procedure and benefits for gay/lesbian households, benefits are typically paid on the employers’ side, and a private, for-profit insurance company decides what procedures – and who – will or won’t be covered.
btw, you didn’t fight and win anything. it’s called the hyde amendment. google is your friend.
and also, too, btw, here in washington, abortion for indigent women is funded by state tax money (but not union dues.) under roe v. wade, that’s a right that we fought for and won in court.
February 28, 2011 at 7:42 pm #717947
JoBParticipantmarkAngelo..
i really want to thank you for my morning dose of laughter…
“The Tea Party and independents are taking back America for the worker one state at a time.”
I especially liked the part about this all being for the worker… what fine irony..
the Koch brothers are buying out America one state at a time if we let them…
and they don’t have the American worker’s best interests in mind.
but you knew that.. didn’t you?
btw..
does the phrase negotiation in good faith mean anything to you?
and how exactly would you apply that to Governor Walker and his crew of state Republicans…
Just because you can doesn’t mean you should..
and btw.. you really shouldn’t.
February 28, 2011 at 7:54 pm #717948
JoBParticipantmark Angelo…
You are just too too much this morning…
“Weaken the death grip of gov’t worker unions on the budget and let people work free of gov’t largess.”
Property owners in Washington opened their property tax bills recently and were reminded that the wisdom of tax cuts for the wealthy carries a heavy personal pricetag. Soemoen still has to pay for state largess.. like essential services.. and guess who is footing the bill?
so you suggest that King county get nothing back for it’s state tax dollars while subsidizing all those republican counties who aren’t paying their share?
i don’t think that idea is going to sell in King County… Probably not even in hinterlands of Bellevue where tax cutting is king…
Even they want state hiways and bridges and other essential govt services…
Pay as little as you can may be the current slogan…
but you don’t get to be rich without expecting value for your dollar.
you really should have paid more attention in logic class. Circular arguments lack an essential foundation. You did take logic class.. didn’t you?
February 28, 2011 at 7:55 pm #717949
JoBParticipantredblack…
thanks for carrying the load today..
i would far rather be amused by MarkAngelo
than refute him point by point today…
don’t let yourself get sucked in to letting him define the conversation…
February 28, 2011 at 7:58 pm #717950
Genesee HillParticipantIf I wrote what I really think of MarkAngello, and his ilk, I would be booted off the WSB forever.
So I won’t.
February 28, 2011 at 8:01 pm #717951
JoBParticipantMarkangello…
“How? Firstly, we don’t want to have to join a union and pay dues if we don’t want to. Let each worker decide.”
ROFLOL…
we have to stop meeting like this…
i know my doc prescribed laughter …
but i am pretty sure he also prescribed enough moderation to allow me to reach the restroom in time…
The state workers in question did vote to belong to the union.
Did you miss that?
forgive me..
but i thought your justification for the republican abuse of power came down to winner takes all in any vote…
so that only applies to republicans ? not workers?
where does that leave the workers in your little diatribe about the tea party standing up for their rights? looks like they just got smaller to me…
Oops!
Gotta run. No literally i have got to run…
February 28, 2011 at 8:18 pm #717952
JoBParticipantgenesee hill…
redblack said it all ..
“google is your friend”
Mark angelo…
LOL…wiser words have never been uttered…
you literally have the knowledge you lack at your fingertips…
“Thirdly, we don’t want our dues to be used for causes we detest like homosexual special privileges, unmarried benefits, and leftwing politicians, and baby-killing… that’s abortions.”
did we miss something? Are you a union worker?
or did you just get sloppy and mistake taxes for dues?
I am going to assume that you aren’t as big a hypocrite as you appear…
i’ll respond to the tax thingy…
You may prefer your taxes are used for things like corporate subsidies and tax breaks and a worldwide military presence protecting America’s business interests…. oh.. and faith based public assistance programs…
but i disagree with you.
we settle our disagreements through a process called democracy which offers checks and balances to the winner takes all philosophy of government.
in my opinion.. those checks and balances aren’t strong enough.. but until we come up with a better system… i pay my taxes just like every other responsible citizen.
That is the goal isn’t it? responsible citizens?
February 28, 2011 at 8:20 pm #717953
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