Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Paycheck Fairness Act
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June 9, 2012 at 12:00 am #760328
miwsParticipantOooooo, David, you didn’t come up with the data in the 22 minutes between kootch’s posts 49 & 50!
Mike
June 9, 2012 at 5:20 am #760329
JoBParticipantskeeter
“In my experience, men are more aggressive and competitive in their pursuit of higher wages. So men are less willing to take time off of work.”
in my experience, men don’t have babies so seldom take time off work for pregnancy…
they are pretty equal opportunity taking time off for work for illness/recovery though.
I wonder what excuse is used for paying a lesser wage to the 40/50% of the women in the room who hadn’t taken time off work to have children.
June 9, 2012 at 5:23 am #760330
JoBParticipantskeeter
“it is simply a rank and step on the GSA payscale. The amazing performers get paid the exact same amount as the marginal employees.”
but the amazing performers hit benchmarks and move up in rank and increase their wages much faster than the marginal employees
that’s how the GSA payscale works
June 9, 2012 at 5:25 am #760331
JoBParticipantkootch…
one wonders exactly why you want to make sure that women don’t have legal recourse to fair wages…
after all.. you have daughters.
are you really so naive as to think that wage disparity won’t affect them?
June 9, 2012 at 5:20 pm #760332
redblackParticipantlet’s reconcile these numbers:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0697.pdf
there are 5.6 million single male householders, no spouse present, in the united states.
median income for that group: $41,501.
there are 14.9 million single female householders, no spouse present, in the united states.
median income for that group: $29,770.
go ahead. explain it.
June 12, 2012 at 4:10 am #760333
redblackParticipantbump!
come on, righties. don’t any of you have anything quirky and clever to say to explain the disparity in pay between the genders among america’s working class? no straw men to set on fire?
you guys are no fun anymore.
June 12, 2012 at 6:22 am #760334
kootchmanMemberThat won’t be hard….
http://www.livestrong.com/article/177890-the-advantages-of-single-fathers/
Plus.. and this is a biggie… you aren’t counting child support payments from dads as income… cause it’s not income. Oh yea,,, now we will hear every single mother receives no child support too.
So a single dad, making 55K making 8K yr support payments can’t deduct it .. and is taxed at the full 55K. The recipient, making 45K does not have to declare it as income. Add two kids to the mix at 1400 and their goes a lot of your disparity. A single mother with no child support is just screwed… over, under, sideways,.. but they made the choice to pick their Romeo… most bad circumstances emanate from bad choices. we can’t legislate picking an ass as a mate. Also a cultural problem… hispanic and black males pay child support at much much lower rates. So there ya go. Lots of reasons … isn’t it funny how raw statistics just don;t make for an argument. Some woman marries a loser, a bum… bears three children and then they split… now how is that my problem to solve? As census data shows… middle to low income households have more kids. When dad is out of the picture and not paying or paying 300 per month for three kids… momma is in a hurt locker. But that doesn’t mean it’s a fair paycheck issue.
Is child support taxable?
No. Individuals who receive child support on behalf of their children do not pay income tax on that money.
oooops crappy stats … again. we have explained it redblack over and over again…. family structure. Two professionals making 150K plus .. they have daycare, nannys, etc.. they have more options. And they have fewer children to begin with,
JoB disparity does not mean inequality… it is just disparity. The causes are myriad… but we know your feelings on data.. by god you want ineguality wherever you look,..and laws and laws and laws… Sorta of a tonic for ya.
That;s all American business needs… more foaming liberals and their trial lawyers … it’s hard enough to create jobs. Of course, we could end up with none… and that would be equality with no discussion or dissent.
June 12, 2012 at 6:44 am #760335
HMC RichParticipantThe reasoning behind not voting for PFA … http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2012/06/paycheck-fairness-act-unfairly-burdens-employees-and-employers#_edn1
June 12, 2012 at 6:48 am #760336
kootchmanMemberwell done … great article.
June 12, 2012 at 7:08 am #760337
JanSParticipantSo I got to deduct my daughter when I divorced. I also got to raise her day to day. Yes, I got child support …until the summer after highschool graduation. She was 18. then We were divorced when she had just turned 15. She never ever spent one night with him after the divorce. Child support was a small price for him to pay, frankly. He abdicated otherwise as a parent.But…did I make out like a bandit? Hardly.(Remember, that child support was already taxed when earned)
June 12, 2012 at 7:20 am #760338
horsegrlyMemberI was trying so hard not to respond to this, but it has appeared in the most recent forum posts 1 too many times, so here we go.
Full disclosure, I am a female, I work in HR, and I assist in compensation planning….oh and I am a middle of the road voter who leans democrat.
This bill is sadly not something that I could support at this time for a few reasons primarily it is very burdensome and would require fairly significant resources ($ and people) to comply. Nobody likes the red tape in the government and this law is creating it in private business. Additionally, this law is coming on the heels of some monumental legislation in Lily Ledbetter. I don’t think that anyone has had the opportunity to find the impact of that on the disparity numbers.
So much of the conversation in this thread is focused on if men get paid more then women and if it is fair to let others see your pay. I am fascinated that the first point is even up for discussion. At the aggregate level it is absolutely true that men do make more then women. However, I agree there are significant shifts in the landscape of the working world and more women graduating university. Due to this societal changes I would expect the pay gap to become smaller as compensation catches up to these demographic swings.
Regarding disclosure of pay information, I fully support environments where this is common place. However, I don’t think it is something that you can flip a switch and force with a law. Providing transparency in your compensation practices requires significant education and cultural buy in. It would be rare that I would expect two people to make the same amount of money there are so many factors that go into comp (education, work experience, relevant work experience, company experience, market, inflation, performance etc. etc). If you just posted a list of people and their payrates for sure many people would feel cheated and quite honestly many people are very private about that information and might feel violated. However, from my perspective with the right communication pay transparency can be incredibly motivating as well, it can give you things to aspire to and it can make your job and performance competitive. Unfortunately, in my experience it takes some time to build a cultural environment that supports this.
My 25 cents.
June 12, 2012 at 1:35 pm #760339
redblackParticipanthorsegrly: i think a simple solution would be to require employers to post the average salary for a position when seeking applicants. if the employee is offered a salary within – say – 5 or 10% either direction, depending on market forces, then the employer is compliant.
but thanks, kootch. so working people’s salaries and wages are so disparate – by $12,000 – because of child support. gotcha.
go back and look at the numbers in that table reeeal carefully.
i’m just wondering how those 5.6 million men are paying all of that child support to those 14.9 million women.
i’m not talking about people who make $150,000 per year in stable households with two wage earners. obviously, the more civilized upper class isn’t as much of a problem when it comes to wage disparity. i’m talking about women who raise kids and hold down crappy jobs that pay less than $30,000 per year.
June 12, 2012 at 2:47 pm #760340
JoBParticipantkootch..
what does child support have to do with wages?
“Plus.. and this is a biggie… you aren’t counting child support payments from dads as income… cause it’s not income. Oh yea,,, now we will hear every single mother receives no child support too.”
and what world do you live in that single fathers don’t get child support too?
June 12, 2012 at 2:51 pm #760341
JoBParticipantHMCRich..
great argument if you ignore one small factor
wage discrimination unfairly impacts female workers
every employer in America could terminate the impact of the paperwork in the Paycheck Fairness Act by simply ending paycheck discrimination in their workplace.
how do you propose women end wage discrimination?
supposedly, it was made illegal nearly 50 years ago.
June 12, 2012 at 3:04 pm #760342
JoBParticipanthorsgrly..
i wish i could agree with your optimistic forecast
“…there are significant shifts in the landscape of the working world and more women graduating university. Due to this societal changes I would expect the pay gap to become smaller as compensation catches up to these demographic swings. “
but after nearly 50 years and a shift toward more women earning college degrees than men, research into hiring practices just doesn’t support that claim.
you mention the culture surrounding paycheck transparency as though that culture had nothing to do with wage inequality.
That culture has had nearly 50 years to catch up with the law.. and it hasn’t budged much. In fact, that culture has used every legal resource available to them to deny women access to class action lawsuits on corporate wage discrimination.
I agree that the Paycheck Fairness Act would have placed a burden on the HR departments of major corporations.. but not that that would have been a bad thing.
It would have made it more expensive for an employer to continue discriminatory practices than to discontinue them.. and that was the point.
The culture that perpetuates wage discrimination is cost effective for business owners.
The only way to change that culture is to make it more expensive to discriminate than to comply with the law.
June 12, 2012 at 3:31 pm #760343
TanDLParticipantThanks for the input – Smitty and HMC especially for explaining exactly why it was voted down by Republicans. Horsegrly, I lean towards your middle of the road thoughts and redblack, sounds like a valid compromise to me – I’d go for posting a range.
Another idea would be to start a small business that takes no federal funding and hire only women, of all cultural and ethnic backgrounds. There are ways around hiring men.
Cue bait sign again, Mike.
June 12, 2012 at 3:36 pm #760344
JoBParticipantTanDL
“Another idea would be to start a small business that takes no federal funding and only hire only women, of all cultural and ethnic backgrounds. There are ways around hiring men.”
i know women who have successfully done that .. in spite of taking federal loans and grants..
prior to this recession, female owned businesses were the strongest generators of new jobs.
June 12, 2012 at 3:42 pm #760345
TanDLParticipantJune 12, 2012 at 4:36 pm #760346
JoBParticipantowning your own business is the surest way i know of getting paid what you are worth…
i did it myself
June 12, 2012 at 8:04 pm #760347
skeeterParticipantRedblack (#55) I can explain it. Women and men are not working the same jobs, so they are not earning the same amount of money.
If women and men are working the same job then women earn 98% of what men earn. I cannot explain the 2% difference, but that’s a fairly small number that doesn’t need a whole lot of time, money, legislation, and resources thrown at it for a correction.
Source:
“When work experience, education, occupation, and hours of work are taken into account, the average woman makes 98 cents for every dollar earned by a man.”
June 12, 2012 at 8:14 pm #760348
skeeterParticipantAs a new parent myself, just learning the challenges of parenting, I will say one thing. If a couple splits and the mother is responsible for the child and the father is not, the father is probably going to make a LOT more money than the mother. The father can work OT, the mother cannot. The father can work weekends, the mother cannot. The father will not miss work when the child is ill. The mother will miss work when the child is ill. It goes on and on and on. I’m thinking that may explain a significant chunk of the difference between single mom pay vs single dad pay.
I’ve often thought that both men and women should be more selective in who they reproduce with. I can’t explain it when an otherwise really smart person chooses to have a child with a person who would not be a good mother or father to the child if the relationship between the parents ends. But that’s getting pretty far off topic.
June 12, 2012 at 9:08 pm #760349
kootchmanMemberJob…… because… oh god.. never mind. Read the post slowly.
Then quit bitching when manufacturing jobs go offshore, and stay offshore.. YOU think compliance costs are fine, cause you don’t have to pay them… ”’there was a time when liberals spent their money on causes… not yours”
“I agree that the Paycheck Fairness Act would have placed a burden on the HR departments of major corporations.. but not that that would have been a bad thing” . The act didn’t say “major corporations” they can fight back with better lawyers… ya go for the sweet spot of litigations… juicy enough to hunt, not tough enough to fight back… y’lnow … the jobs that aren’t appearing.. small business with 25, 50, 100 workers…
June 12, 2012 at 9:38 pm #760350
kootchmanMemberNo skeeter it isn’t off topic. Children and family structure is the heart of the argument.
You are so so so .. correct, the custodial parent will have more limits to their income potential. It’s not complicated to show how wage disparity is counted.
Let’s say you (god forbid) have two kids. You divorce and by conventions and tradition, and maybe by preference you have shared custody.
Dad, actually was not a bad guy. He steps in and does what he should. He pays child support. Looking at the destiny of his two kids.. hw works a lot of OT, maybe second jobs. … has mobility you don’t. The state has mandated that he is a good bread winner and has to pay a minimum of $750 per child. But, the divorce was amicable and dad knows music lessons, private school maybe, clothes, travel etc.. are good things. You both agree to 1250 per month per child. He appreciates the good home and love and care you will provide.
Dad now has a taxable income of 100K…. You work a less demanding job, cause you need the flexibility. Your wage is 40K.
Here’s the part that confuses “some”… (see above)
Dad’s income of 100K is on the books… he is counted by the IRS and BLS, and census as a 100K kinda guy.
BUT… by mutual agreement, he transfers 2,500 per month to you, via child support. Thats 30K per year
Now if you look at income disparity.. you make 40K dad makes 100K . That’s the way the IRS, BLS, censuse will treat it. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DECLARE CHILD SUPPORT AS INCOME… Alimony, ? yes. That’s what the stats will show. It will show a 60K income disparity… that JoB will point to as rampant, runaway inequality.. begging for two or three laws to be enacted.
However hard this concept is for some.. the reality is… you receive a 30K transfer to your 40K wages… your household unofficial income is 70K and his unofficial income is 70K too…
Actually “dad” is the loser.. cause he pays support from after tax earnings….. you make “more” than he does!
JoB .. sheer numbers. Don’t suggest for a second that as many men receive child support as women.. ridiculous. For the few that do.. so what? It’s right that children are supported and both parents can step up and do the right thing.
“The only way to change that culture is to make it more expensive to discriminate than to comply with the law”.
Go to the docks and wave goodbye to the jobs… the way the culture really is is changing is business avoids the expense of discrimination and the expense of compliance.. they don’t choose the lesser of two evils… they avoid them both.
You know my last name, the biz I am in.. type it in the old search engine add the suffix “technology”…. see my business address? I don’t have either cost structure do I?
As JaN points out… some men are not “winners”.. doing the bare minimum if anything.. but no one discriminated against JaN.. she made her husband, father of her children decisions.. and that’s her outcome. Her decisions, her results. That redblack also explains the spouse disparity levels. … it’s not hard to calculate. In a single house, male or female, no children… there is no wage gap. Education levels being held constant.
June 12, 2012 at 10:22 pm #760351
TanDLParticipantJune 12, 2012 at 10:50 pm #760352
kootchmanMemberNo JoB.. re 54….. daddy’s got a business for them to run.. if they want it. Two, they don’t have your outlook that the world is so skewed against their gender that the only way they can progress is to have “big brother” on the prowl to look out for all that evil that lurks everywhere for every woman. And of horsgrly … is a professional woman, working in the field in question… so let’s doubt her too. She can’t see the evil either. I am going to take wild guess.. even though she is a woman..(sarcastic) she has access to more relevant, topical data, not only lives with the trends, but actually has a hand in making them. LAWS don’t mean spit… if the culture doesn’t care about them or doesn’t follow them and won’t expend any energy or money to enforce them. It’s still law in some states that there must be spitoons in every tavern…. who’s enforcning it? who cares?
And just this irony as you are looking for laws and regulations and mandates… and more government interference… what DO these millinaeal women really want or say..
” “Making the decision to not follow a system, or someone else’s rules has allowed me to really dig into what my own strengths and gifts are without spending time feeling jaded or wasteful,” says Ishita Gupta who started FEAR.LESS Magazin”
See that part JoB… NOT follow a system or someone else’s rule”… maximun freedoms… job and business creating atmopshere… verses…. “make discrimination more costly than costly compliance rules”…
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