Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Paycheck Fairness Act
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June 6, 2012 at 11:23 pm #603511
TanDLParticipantI just read that Senate Republicans have blocked the Paycheck Fairness Act. I am working long hours and don’t have time right now to look into what the issues are around this bill, but I would like very much to know what reasoning is behind blocking an equal pay for equal work kind of bill. Is there someone out there who can enlighten me on why this is a problem for Republican Senators? Thanks –
June 7, 2012 at 12:39 am #760279
SmittyParticipantNobody is against equal pay, the bill was poorly written in that it would allow people to demand their company to post sally information and then everyone and anyone would sue. the courts would be full of these lawsuits and the only people making money would be the lawyers.
It was submitted with these flaws to add to the “war on women” BS. Nothing more, nothing less.
June 7, 2012 at 1:17 am #760280
JoBParticipantSmitty,
if pay rates aren’t published, how are women supposed to be able to find out if they are being paid the same as their male co-workers?
equal pay is supposedly the law now..
but it isn’t enforceable if women have no way of discovering what equitable pay is at their company
without filing suit and demanding that information as part of discovery…
which is an exceedingly expensive way to obtain information.
June 7, 2012 at 1:35 am #760281
SmittyParticipantWhy stop there? Are black women paid the same as white women? Black men and white men? Why should gender be issue #1?
I still have a problem with the methodology. I want to see a study comparing the same job with the same education and the same time on the job. Is that 77%?
June 7, 2012 at 2:59 am #760282
JoBParticipantSmitty..
there are stats comparing the same education and the same entry level starter job that show pay disparity between men and women.
and no.. i am not going to go source them.
you want to know that truth about sex based income disparity
go look it up for yourself.
i don’t have to
i already did.
btw.. if you actually do your homework, you will find that there is wage disparity between equally qualified white and black workers as well
and yes.. they should be able to sue as well.
equal work should but doesn’t equal equal pay
June 7, 2012 at 3:18 am #760283
SmittyParticipantEntry level disparity exists? Then you have me. I will research.
If I were a small business owner (or big business owner) I would hire women. My profit margins would skyrocket.
Why does that not happen?
June 7, 2012 at 5:28 am #760284
kootchmanMemberIt’s called “dead frog law”.. coined in Texas. If ya take an electric current to a dead frog, the will reflexively convulse to the stimulus…. for days on end. It’s part of the highly choreographed War on Women the administration has to drag out of the bag. Pretty much because they have nothing else. Although this could be problematic, since the White House Staffers who are women…. are paid less! Here is the magnitude of the disparity! Patronizing and pandering is generally a subtle hint that you are held in less regard and held to be less capable… According to the 2011 annual report on White House staff, female employees earned a median annual salary of $60,000, which was about 18 percent less than the median salary for male employees ($71,000). No surprise there.
by Marie Hartwell-Walker, Ed.D.
“Almost a third of working women now out-earn their husbands nationwide. It was inevitable, really. With more women than men going to college, with women taking less time out from careers to raise children, with more women choosing careers that only a few years ago were the province of men, better jobs and better money have become available to them.”
Better still.. actual research and statistics (not an op ed based on gut feelings)
“In remarkable shift from even a decade ago, the majority of working wives will out-earn their husbands in the next generation, according to Time magazine’s cover story this week”.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/income-gap-women-make-more-men_n_1368328.html
It’s also affected by attitudes and behaviors, from the womans publication… DailyWorth
“DailyWorth.com, one of the new female-oriented personal finance sites, reported that 90 percent of its readers said they were their families’ chief financial officer–but two-thirds of them lamented that their planning and investing skills were below average. “Research has shown that women, even professional women with good jobs and successful careers, tend to be less financially literate than men,” one economics professor at Darthmouth college told The New York Times.”
These are skills generally self acquired, and not generally regarded as a work place condition. Hence the emergence of “DailyWorth who have recognized the need for high income women to upgrade their investment skills if they are not already in the banking and investing profession.
USA Today
“Women ages 22 to 30 with no husband and no kids earn a median $27,000 a year, 8% more than comparable men in the top 366 metropolitan areas, according to 2008 U.S. Census Bureau data crunched by the New York research firm Reach Advisors and released Wednesday. The women out-earn men in 39 of the 50 biggest cities and match them in another eight. The disparity is greatest in Atlanta, where young, childless single women earn 21% more than male counterparts.”
It takes no genius to see the income disparity. Women who CHOOSE to start families, generally make the decision to be the primary care giver. They will often pick part-time or flexible work schedules with less pay to support the family structure they have chosen. In my house that was alternated, at the present time, as my daughter is now older and autonomous, her mother is the larger wage earner. It was our choice to structure child rearing.. certainly we both would have made far more money had we remained childless. Personal decisions.
Democrats would rather you not pay attention to the grievous condition of over 1.4 million single mom households who are currently unemployed. For them this recession has been catastrophic… and for their children. DFL is designed to distract from 47 straight weeks of lost jobs. This is the most dire plight…and we are still awaiting job growth, which would be the only remedy. We need an economy that grows faster than an annualized GDP growth rate of less than 2%. 31/2 per cent GDP growth would only keep place with population growth. Congress has not focused on private sector job growth in over three years.
Don’t worry JoB we will do the research. DFL laws are all this administration has. It’s shameful pandering. It doesn’t tell the full, story. Being that employment is a private contract between tow consenting parties.. this legislation has the undertone of not holding women capable … in need of patronage. It polls better than “Bush did it”.. The biggest predictor of income disparity is the decision to have and raise a family. That is the primary cause as readily admitted by the Bureau of Labor and Statistics and cross correalted by US Census data… in fewer instances, men who are self identified and the primary caregiver, also show the same degree of income disparity.
June 7, 2012 at 5:33 am #760285
oddrealityParticipantThe best way for a woman to get equal pay is to learn a trade and join a union.
Or any place that is union, don’t even need to be in the trades.Union workers are paid scale and women get paid the same as men.Yay Unions!!!!
June 7, 2012 at 5:48 am #760286
kootchmanMemberoddreality… that takes care of 7 per cent of the working population. at best, and women generally don’t aspire to be plumbers, carpenters, etc.. although they are good ones… they are less than 10 per cent of the trades population. My daughter has no desire to be a welder. But they do get scale….
June 7, 2012 at 5:57 am #760287
HarmonicParticipantKootchman –
Perhaps your daughter has a desire to get in the management side, however. Construction management is a good career, would love to see more woman joining.
June 7, 2012 at 6:06 am #760288
kootchmanMemberI have dragged her to many a infrastructure or commercial site..she has even been my “assistant” at training seminars for engineering firms (that shared parenting thing, sometimes schedules are what they are, but since there are so many female engineers now, it’s not a “no no” anymore) . a close family friend is a senior principal at a major architectural firm… nope.. it didn’t stick. She is headed to bio/medical pursuits.
June 7, 2012 at 6:12 am #760289
HarmonicParticipantAs an industrial and management engineering graduate, I salute your daughter! Math and science fields rock.
June 7, 2012 at 8:02 am #760290
oddrealityParticipantKootch,My daughter is a journeyman electrician and I started out as a welder in the 70’s and moved up from there.Always worked in traditionally men’s work as that was where the money was. I know many women in the trades. Wish I was younger I’d still be doing it.
If I had a place and a welder I’d be welding art now!
June 7, 2012 at 9:47 am #760291
kootchmanMemberI share a profund frustration.. I have burned out my MIG welder twice… ( and took lessons from a supurb woman welder and artisan ) and have yet to learn how to feed the wire at any consistant speed. I still need lessons! Cause I haven’t yet given up.
JoBism… if pay rates aren’t published, how are women supposed to be able to find out if they are being paid the same as their male co-workers?
Good heavens joB have you ever had a job? Now I see through the fog. You have no idea how businesses are run.
Because they aren’t supposed to know. It’s a private contract. People get fired for divulging that information. It may come as a shocker… if I own or manage a business.. my first rule is to get the best return I can on the people and assets I deploy. If I can keep two workers happy and contented, and pay one less than the other.. good for me! How do they find out? Simple… they go to the hundreds of web sites, social networking sites, heck, even get a few beers with their co-worker and pry the information loose. Bureau of Labor Statistics posts em, the library has volumes of books on labor wages and rate and ranges… then, if that worker feels justified and confident, they ask for a raise. If my need for his or her services and their productivity meet… they get a raise, If unemployment is higher than hell as it is now… and demand for my products is non existant, as it is now… I may not negotiate. You may quit too. No one chains you to the workplace.
See how that works? Now, please, Mr. President quit diddling around with these stupid distractions….this conniving, sleaze you call governance.. and allow us to create some damn jobs and job opportunity so our workers can come in with a smile, knowing they are in short supply and I can raise my prices and I can give them the raises they want. what a novel idea!
You are not going to get a raise solely on your belonging to a gender class. There are lots of reasons to pay more, or less, there are intangibles too… lots of them. willingness to work overtime, other skill sets, works well with others, makes others more productive by sharing knowledge and skills…not being a chronic complainer, can do attitude, respect for company property… lots of things.. not every job involves rote, mechanical tasks. Those that do…. that’s simple you don’t pay salaries or wages,, you are paid on units of output… that where you want labor to devolve to? Good managers think a lot about how to keep good workers… and how to replace bad ones when they can. Unemployment rates of 3 per cent, Job, that;s what works. Not 8.2 per cent.
TanDL.. let;s assume you are a great employee. You know what they look like. You will come in early, stay late,.if needed. You see a mess, you clean it up. You are a proactive worker. If I am a good manager…good owner.. I want to insure you stay in the company… you have potential.. You want the same pay as a co-worker who is in “it’s a job” mode.. all the time? That’s the equal pay act.
June 7, 2012 at 1:12 pm #760292
redblackParticipantNow, please, Mr. President quit diddling around with these stupid distractions….this conniving, sleaze you call governance.. and allow us to create some damn jobs and job opportunity so our workers can come in with a smile, knowing they are in short supply and I can raise my prices and I can give them the raises they want. what a novel idea!
no one is stopping you. as a matter of fact, the government is incentivizing you with tax breaks.
now go forth and create jobs.
oh. you can’t get credit. hmm.
what do we have to do to shake that credit loose? as you’ve said before, if it’s a good business, people will invest. so what does politics have to do with it?
June 7, 2012 at 2:11 pm #760293
kootchmanMemberDon’t know what the tax codes will look like redblack. Clueless, But I am interviewing. … which is good.
June 7, 2012 at 3:08 pm #760294
JoBParticipantkootch..
“Good heavens joB have you ever had a job? Now I see through the fog. You have no idea how businesses are run.”
yes, i have had a job.
yes, i know how businesses are run.
yes, i ran other people’s businesses until i ran my own.
yes, i made a profit.. that’s why they hired me.
i even worked in a traditionally male business for a while.. car sales.. and ended up running a dealership.
My bachelor.. accounting.
yep.. this little filly has a head for numbers and the business sense to put them to good use.
oh.. and my biggest business asset?
i don’t tolerate fools.
June 7, 2012 at 3:10 pm #760295
JoBParticipantkootch..
America will become “pro-business” again when businesses start hiring American workers at a living wage.
really, it’s a simple equation
hiring workers to produce goods is even profitable
and sustainable
unlike our current economy
June 7, 2012 at 3:26 pm #760296
JiggersMemberI know three women right now that make way more than their husbands do here. That’s the new treand. I’d feel quite embarrassed as a guy to not be the bread maker of the family.
June 7, 2012 at 3:35 pm #760297
kootchmanMemberI wouldn’t… if half the women in the country are equally educated, and choose careers… they are going to share the top, middle, and bottom of the economic ladder. The ladder is not constant either, as many people enter the top quintile as exit the bottom. Sorta puts a little more pressure on the ladies… now we look for an economically beneficial partner too. Lookin’ good babe, let’s see that pay stub!
June 7, 2012 at 4:13 pm #760298
DBPMemberIt may come as a shocker… [. . .] If I can keep two workers happy and contented, and pay one less than the other.. good for me!
—kootchman
No, kootch, considering the source, that statement actually does not come as a shocker. But perhaps you could clarify something for us, because I can see how some people might be confused about your postion on this matter.
Are you saying that you would knowingly pay two employees different amounts for exactly the same work?
June 7, 2012 at 5:28 pm #760299
skeeterParticipantIt is very, very common for employers (especially smaller employers) to pay different wages to employees who do the exact same work with the exact same proficiency.
Example: Employer needs an accountant. The job market is average and employer hires a gal for $50,000. Twelve months later, the employer needs an additional accountant with the same qualifications as the existing employee. Trouble is, the economy really heated up and accountants are bombarded with offers. Employer needs to pay $55,000 to hire an accountant with the same qualifications.
This happens all the time and it takes many years to “equalize” the two employees by gradually giving larger raises to the original accountant. Now, the original accountant, if she has her finger on the employment pulse, may use the hot job market to jump ship for more pay or negotiate higher pay from her existing employer. But oftentimes the employee will simply let things play out and not worry if she’s leaving a little money on the table because she thinks her employer is treating her well.
This happens all the time and I do not think it is unfair. It’s “at will” employment and all parties are welcome to do whatever they think is in their best interest.
June 7, 2012 at 6:08 pm #760300
DBPMemberOK, skeets, that makes some sense the way you describe it. But the way kootchman put it in that part I quoted made it sound as if he thought a boss could indefinitely pay two workers different amounts for doing the same work, and without giving any reason. I don’t agree with that kind of system, because it would encourage discrimination based on gender. And that would be bad.
But how can we tell the difference between a market-based pay differential and discrimination? Well, it would seem that if there are pay differentials caused by market fluctuations — or by legitimate worker-incentive systems, as kootch also discusses — you would expect to see those differentials applying equally to both genders, right? What you would not expect is a situation where women at a certain business are consistently earning less than their male counterparts for the same work. I think that second scenario is basically unfair and un-American. And therefore it should be illegal.
I also think employers should not be allowed to discipline an employee for revealing how much he or she is getting paid. That kind of information is not a “trade secret,” so I can’t see how any employer can legitimately claim that it’s private.
June 7, 2012 at 6:24 pm #760301
kootchmanMemberYes …. no two employees do “exactly” the same thing. As skeeter has abllily illustrated. Labor costs reflect supply and demand. Every employee brings a mix of value and liability. Let’s say this instance occurs. Two employees work the service desk. One has a CDL and in a pinch, can do deliveries. Also, took industrial safety classes, and is CPR certified. The “job” is customer service. That’s what they do. The other employee also does service desk work. But that’s all the utility value he/she has. I have a set of eyes that keeps my working condition safer. I have a resource if a driver calls in sick. Would you pay the first employee an extra $1.50 an hour if they came in and negotiated a raise? Yea, ya would. I am the owner the company. I have the perogative to decide what value I place on an employee. Nothing anti-american about it. It works both ways too, what makes you assume the more valued worker is not female? why would you even assume that’s the way it falls. I might have three agressive, hard working women..and 9 less motivated male workers… all doing the same job. The men need more “supervision” to stay on task… they are ok with debris on the warehouse floor… the women aren’t, they are more safety concious. In fact, I want more just like them. I assume of I g on vacation I wont have a horror story about a warehouse worker getting run over by a forklift cause it couldn’t brake on cardboard packaging debris. and my workers comp rates go through the ceiling. The work ethic and vigilance alone is work more. The market is good, there is talent out there… if I lost a couple of the “dudes”, a better prospect is right out the door with a resume. as soon as I place a help wanted ad. I know 9 guys that better show me something before they start sniffing for a raise. Did I show a gender discrimination patten? Hell no. I showed a preference for better workers who I don’t want to lose. Learn to negotiate… would be my suggestion… if you don’t like it, you have a skill set to improve. Even IF there was no discernable difference…if I have an employee that doesn’t ask for more..why I am obliged? We both go out an buy the same model car… ya think the salesman is going to say.. “wait, I just remembered, I gave the person who came in before you a better deal, I need to cut my commision and give ya the same deal,”. It’s not “right”? Ask car sales manager JoB how that works. How would that work DBP… every time I gave a raise I post it on the wall so I can increase my business costs? How can I enforce it? Some businesses have you sign a confidentiality agreement before you are hired not to divulge your wages…but in truth it’s probably not enforceable. we all know how to “document” wage disparity … to be bulletproof. It’s part of the learning curve. One school of thought for small businesses is to make sure you do quarterly updates to employee files, or whenever an employee gets a raise. Update everyones files and document your reasoning. You know employers have labor problems and avoidance consultants The best postion is the right position …don’t gender discriminate. It’s stupid to do so… why would any employer want to be viewed as gender unfavorable..? You are cutting off half of the talent pool.. For a small business… that’s suicidal… the smaller you are, the more reliant you are on the few employees you have. I want the best possible picks I can afford.
Here;s an example
http://www.eicp.ca/en/toolkit/trust/confidentiality.pdf
NLRB has taken some employers to the woodshed under the doctrine of “inhibiting” union organizing. But NLRB.. well, it waxes and wanes with political appointments. Right to work states are expanding and the law has no teeth for small companies … NLRB isn;t going to do anything about a small business… they are targeting large corporations. It’s a contentious issue… some cases have been won by employers, soem by NLRB. I don’t use them, although I did at one time. I wouldn’t suggest your buddy going in and asking for a raise cause ya told em what ya made….
June 7, 2012 at 8:01 pm #760302
skeeterParticipantI basically agree with Kootch on this topic. The employer decides how much value to put on the employee.
So long as the employer is not violating any employment laws, I don’t think the employer has to answer to the government or any other employees on why she pays some employees more or less than others.
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