Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Longshoreman need to be trumped!
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February 10, 2015 at 12:56 am #821598
skeeterParticipantTexas (#25) – do you know for a fact that the workers have not slowed down? Or are you just speculating?
February 10, 2015 at 1:00 am #821599
JTBParticipantMike,
Do you really think that captainDave can recognize irony? Good heavens the man does well to simply insert right wing pejorative terminology in appropriate, if not informative or illustrative, contexts. I’ve stopped trying to figure out if he is simply a troll or has a very limited grasp of the subject matter he attempts to address.
Apart from the predictable swipe at Obama, his response to you exposes not simply an ignorance of labor history but also about more recent assaults on organizing rights and employee benefits.
I will agree that unions became complacent and collaborated with management to tolerate inflation rather than tackle productivity challenges in the 1970’s. The excellent “War for Wealth” by Gabor Steingart outlines the ways in which this happened, the missed opportunities and shared responsibility of labor and management. Of course labor’s influence dwindled and management greed and compensation skyrocketed as the economy stabilized and Ronald Reagan introduced the early neoliberal “reforms” which set us on course for the present state of affairs. Of course that leads to the point that organizations to defend the interests of working people are very much needed now as much as ever before. Whether that involves revitalizing the vestiges of the old trade union movement or creating new formations will become clear as we continue struggling with the relentless assault on average American working people.
February 10, 2015 at 1:53 am #821600
JoBParticipanti love it when i log on after a nap and the conversational rebuttal has already moved along quite nicely without me..
February 10, 2015 at 4:27 am #821601
captainDaveParticipantJTB: I have a great uncle that was a Wobbly organizer in Seattle during the teens and 20’s. I also have many family relations that owned local shipyards and lumber mills that dealt with unions over the last century. As a non-union truck driver many years ago, I had run my share of picket lines. Maybe I don’t know much about labor, but I do know people prefer to work in a healthy diversified marketplace with competitive wages.
Aside from your predictable distain for conservative viewpoints, your academic dissertation of labor seems to be lacking in practical experience.
The only thing that has set us on course for today’s labor situation is a leftist ideology that has restricted entrepreneurial activity and reduced competition. Greed is a result of creating scarcity, not the other way around.
Reagan had no more to do with today’s employment and wage problems then FDR. Labor unions are only needed today because of an oppressive leftist ideology that keeps out free market competition. Socialism and labor unions work together to be self perpetuating–at least until all the wealth is sucked to the top of the economic pyramid. Then it all falls apart, and the real struggle begins.
February 10, 2015 at 5:37 am #821602
JTBParticipant:-x
February 10, 2015 at 5:55 am #821603
miwsParticipantSo, the Walton family, Koch Bros, etc, attained so much wealth because….Unions?
*head explodes*
Mike
February 10, 2015 at 5:57 am #821604
dobroParticipant“Reagan had no more to do with today’s employment and wage problems then FDR. Labor unions are only needed today because of an oppressive leftist ideology that keeps out free market competition. Socialism and labor unions work together to be self perpetuating–at least until all the wealth is sucked to the top of the economic pyramid. Then it all falls apart, and the real struggle begins.”
There is so much cognitive dissonance in those 4 sentences that there is no reason to continue reading. See you in another thread.
February 10, 2015 at 6:24 am #821605
captainDaveParticipantmiws: “So, the Walton family, Koch Bros, etc, attained so much wealth because….Unions?”
Yes. Just like overregulation, unions create barriers to entry for potential competition which helps make monopolies happen.
Sorry if this revelation makes your head explode. I didn’t mean to cause any cerebral damage.
February 10, 2015 at 7:53 am #821606
JanSParticipantskeeter, and those who think it’s the workers slowing down…read the news…it’s been all over that the ports decided to close….
For Capt. Dave…there are no words :-
February 10, 2015 at 1:35 pm #821607
miwsParticipantFebruary 10, 2015 at 3:54 pm #821608
Schmitz Park DadParticipantI understand one of the union’s demands is an $88,000/year guaranteed pension for retired workers. I would be willing to do that for just an $80,000/year pension if they want to replace some of the work-slow-down employees.
February 10, 2015 at 5:09 pm #821609
JoBParticipantCaptain Dae
“Labor unions are only needed today because of an oppressive leftist ideology that keeps out free market competition.”
you are not making your great Uncle the Wobbly proud.
you might want to read a little history… it’s amazing how much the slogans from today sound just like those when unions were “needed”
February 10, 2015 at 5:14 pm #821610
JoBParticipantTexas..
You have asked a lot of questions about the longshoremen’s compensation
have you asked yourself the same questions about the port leases..
just how profitable are they?
how profitable do you think they ought to be before they pay workers overtime ?
Schmidt Park Dad..
my question for you is this..
if you think that guaranteed pensions are a bad thing for longshoreman…
are you willing to financially support them when the physical, emotional and mental stress of the work they do ends their careers?
because the bottom line is that either the companies that benefitted from their labor support them or we do.
February 10, 2015 at 5:15 pm #821611
JoBParticipantbottom line folks
either we insist that the companies that benefit from labor pay a fair wage for that labor
or we the people pick up the tab again….
February 10, 2015 at 5:40 pm #821612
JTBParticipantJoB
This article is much more interesting that its title suggests, and pertains to some of the perplexing comments offered on this and other threads as it raises the notion of “cognitive bias” and the inability of someone to recognize their (in)competence. One of the researchers gives props to Donald Rumsfeld for the savvy conveyed in his famous “unknown unknowns” comment. cognitive bias
February 10, 2015 at 5:44 pm #821613
texasMemberJoB I think you have me confused with someone else. I did not ask any questions about compensation, I know what it is.
February 10, 2015 at 6:55 pm #821614
captainDaveParticipantJoB: I sadly agree that unions are needed if our government continues to progress along a path that increases barriers to competition. United representation of all labor and non-labor groups will likely happen as we slip towards a social-fascist state. I would like to believe that the power consolidation trend can be reversed through a return to properly managed free-market capitalism that strives to maintain competition. Unfortunately, I don’t think there is enough people left who remember when capitalism really worked for the majority of people in the US.
Both the Republican and Democrat parties have been responsible for the destruction of the competitive marketplace and the resulting predatory consequences. The fact that so many people think we need labor unions (despite all the labor laws on the books) indicates severe problems in the fundamental structure of our system as it is currently being managed.
Labor unions are a key component of a social-fascist state. History shows that once this condition happens, it doesn’t last long–the inevitable conclusion of strife between unionized labor and crony corporatist governments seems to always result in the militarized side of the state stepping in to control everything. Maybe it can’t happen that way here, but I would not bet on it.
February 10, 2015 at 7:31 pm #821615
wakefloodParticipantWow. I don’t know what history books/pamphlets you’ve been reading CD but suffice to say they’re not part of my library. Nor does the analysis you provide follow any line of logic with which I am familiar.
Which leads me to the following question:
How long ’til spring training?
February 10, 2015 at 7:55 pm #821616
mark47nParticipantWhich is is Capt, socialist or fascist? Seeing as the two are mutually exclusive you’ll have to pickAlsos to the concept that unions are a corporate tool to move money to the top is preposterous, that would be absolutely contrary to their purpose. So far all of your statements are full of backwards malarkey, such as the last paragraph you wrote, that I will say that you are wrong, your understanding of key concepts are wrong, therefore your conclusions are hopelessly flawed and incoherent.
February 10, 2015 at 7:56 pm #821617
captainDaveParticipantwakeflood: As they say…”those who choose to forget history are doomed to repeat it”.
JoB: This book has a lot of great reviews :)
http://www.amazon.com/Liberalism-Is-Mental-Disorder-Solutions/dp/1595550437
February 10, 2015 at 8:02 pm #821618
captainDaveParticipantmark47n: This does a good job of explaining what I am talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascism
Socialism and Fascism may be mutually exclusive academic concepts, but history shows what happens in practice.
February 10, 2015 at 9:01 pm #821619
JTBParticipantSo social fascism is a concept specific to, and really only to, Stalinism. Given the history of the Comintern in selling out revolutionary movements in the 1960’s—Indonesia, France, Czechoslovakia, I’m not terribly impressed with the accuracy or usefulness of the political analysis of Stalinist regimes. Lenin, Trotsky and other revolutionary theorists didn’t regard social democrats as fascists (snarky polemics aside), but rather as reformists who served to distract workers movements from more radical agendas and action.
February 10, 2015 at 9:34 pm #821620
wakefloodParticipantAgree with JTB. I assumed that’s where CD was going but got lost in his…um…argument.
The history of the Comintern pre/post is useful (IMHO) primarily, or maybe exclusively?, as a lesson in how to end an endless political argument – that being by killing the guy(s) you disagree with.
Who, btw, usually were only shades different in their views from your own. Matters of execution (pun intended).
February 10, 2015 at 10:55 pm #821621
JTBParticipantWake, I’ve said before with regard to those revolutionary situations I mentioned above that Stalin (in the form of the Comintern whose policies he shaped) made the world safe for capitalism. If any one of those revolutionary situations had moved forward to establish a democratic socialist state, I doubt if the Cold War would have ended as it did.
February 10, 2015 at 10:59 pm #821622
JoBParticipantexceedingly demanding work
and the pay scale only goes up to that $80,000 level if you put in 20 years and work plenty of overtime
that’s if you don’t get hurt before you put in those 20 years..
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Longshoreman/Hourly_Rate
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