Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Longshoreman need to be trumped!
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February 16, 2015 at 10:48 pm #821723
JoBParticipanthow soon we forget that the wages and benefits you enjoy today were the direct result of unionization…
and you think they aren’t relevant today?
February 16, 2015 at 11:37 pm #821724
wakefloodParticipantIn an effort to lend credence to my capacity to maintain an open mind when it comes to the reality of any given situation, I will offer that I think several major unions appear to have done themselves little favor when approaching both their internal structure and goals as well as their external promotion.
Having said that, they’re AT LEAST as vital as ever to the long term ability to manage the never-ending voracity that is unfettered capitalism (as currently practiced here).
They are a necessary balance to what is quite obviously an unbalanced equation.
Never forget, there’s no such thing as a free market and Capitalism in it’s unfettered/deregulated state is just as untenable as similarly untethered Communism.
This is why the world’s most successful and happy countries practice some managed form of Socialism.
February 16, 2015 at 11:44 pm #821725
beachdrivegirlParticipantThe issue is that unions have began to abuse their power and enable subpar workers that we can’t fire. Union leaders aren’t working for the generally good anymore they are stealing money from blue collar workers and looking out for themselves. Thankfully being self employed I can avoid them
February 17, 2015 at 1:31 am #821726
dobroParticipantNews flash re:human behavior…all society’s institutions- government, unions, private business, military, etc are created and operated by human beings. Human beings that carry every flaw-greed, sloth, hatred, and envy- as well as every quality of goodness and kindness. You’ll find corruption and theft in every one of these institutions and you’ll find dedicated public servants, honest union organizers, patriotic soldiers as well. Let’s apply the same logic as the union busters…
Government is corrupt…it had a time and place but that has passed. We have laws in place- or, the military is filled with soldiers that are kept in their jobs by seniority that could be replaced by privates and corporals…you get the idea.
Society needs institutions that work for everyone and when they become stultified and corrupt they need to be fixed. But to think that if there is no counterforce to capital and corporations everything will just work out fine would seem a bit naive. Of course, I guess if you’ve never read a history book it may seem more plausible.
February 17, 2015 at 1:32 am #821727
JTBParticipantHopefully, this post might encompass the concerns of most, if not all, who have expressed even opposing points of view on this topic. It is taken from “The War for Wealth” by Gabor Steingart which prior to the 2009 Great Recession, outlined the impact of globalization on the US.
“At issue is not whether or not the unions have always acted correctly. Nobody’s perfect. Of course union officials have sinned, sometimes even acting against the interests of union members. And, of course, they occasionally have been prone to exaggeration, which has not done the workers any good.
But there was one thing the unions undeniably had: they were alive. Unions might have been a thorn in the side of capitalists, but they were a necessary one. In its unrefined state, the system of supply and demand was not designed to benefit all. Millions of workers suffered brutal treatment at the dawn of capitalism. . . . Fewer than 8o years ago, the global economic crisis was so severe in the United States and Europe that people were dying of starvation. Work accidents were common in mines and chemical factories, partly because so little value was attached to human life. The worker was a production factor, not a full-fledged member of society.
For this reason, the birth of the Western trade union movement was not just another footnote in history but instead a historical necessity. . . .
Labor organizations took longer to become established in the United States, but when they did, they managed to bring about important changes. They established the eight-hour workday and a legal minimum wage, first changing the climate and then the commercial basis of the country’s economic system. The predatory nature of American capitalism never quite disappeared, but it became less apparent. . . .
The Depression shattered the public’s belief in the wisdom of business owners . . . . Working hours declined and wages rose. Companies agreed to pay their employees’ contributions to retirement pensions. . . . At the unions’ peak in 1953, close to 33 per cent of the U.S. workforce was unionized—-giving organized labor a key trump card in wage negotiations. . . .
This game has ended. . . . The unions have been backed into a corner, and while there have been sparks here and there, the unions show few signs of fighting back. Like their Western European relatives, American unions bit the dust long ago. The disappearance of industry has robbed them of their strength. . . . [personal note, I believe the deterioration in workers’ influence was replaced by a fawning belief in “the market” on the part of ordinary Americans, leaving them eager to incur massive debt obligations in order to invest in the housing and stock markets until 2008. I think the shift to market dominance in the 80’s and 90’s left working Americans with the false belief they could share in the benefits enjoyed by those extracting huge profits from the ups and downs of the market.]
But this death should be kept a secret for as long as possible. This is something on which, for once, union bosses and corporate leaders can agree. The unions are embarrassed by their own powerlessness, while employers fear that singing a requiem could spark a desire for the rebirth of strong unions. “
We might reflect on the recent negotiations between Boeing and the machinists union and, various governmental agencies as well, as an example of how dire things have become when one considers the interests of the public v those of investors.
February 17, 2015 at 3:47 am #821728
Jd seattleParticipantI understand the reasons people get sour on unions. They often do a good job of alienating their non union counterparts and have gained a reputation of being lazy. While that isn’t universally true, too much job security isn’t such a good thing. Employers need to be able to effectively discipline and fire employees that habitually don’t fulfill their duties. And let’s face it, there are people in our work force that need a little fear to get motivated. Some unions out there have made that nearly impossible short of an employee stealing from the employer.
I work in an industry that has union and non union workers. During the recession it was common for union members to show up at job sites with non union companies working them and picket. They would block in people’s cars, intimidate people and attempted to disrupt work any way they could without actually going on the property. Now I don’t necessarily care how most unions choose to negotiate with their employers, but those tactics against everyday non union workers and customers isn’t a great way to win support.
Maybe that’s a one of the reasons union numbers are down, they have pushed their hand too far and the pendulum is swinging back the other way.
Again I’m not against unions or deny they have their place, just offering up some reasons I see people can quickly grow tired of them.
February 17, 2015 at 2:19 pm #821729
JoBParticipanti can almost guarantee that those who have grown tired of unions are not tired of the benefits unionization brought to the American workforce..
February 17, 2015 at 2:21 pm #821730
JoBParticipantfrom post 155
“But this death should be kept a secret for as long as possible. This is something on which, for once, union bosses and corporate leaders can agree. The unions are embarrassed by their own powerlessness, while employers fear that singing a requiem could spark a desire for the rebirth of strong unions. “
February 17, 2015 at 3:05 pm #821731
Jd seattleParticipantI don’t think pointing to past bennifits wins everyone in our current day. There are plenty of things that helped this country since its birth that people find distasteful now, or that don’t help us now. Does something deserve to be blindly supported for eternity based off of past accomplishments?
I think unions need to work on finding ways of accomplishing there goals without stepping on/aleinating so many people outside there ranks. It may be a tall order, but one needed to turn support of the public back to their side.
February 17, 2015 at 4:04 pm #821732
wakefloodParticipantAgree that unions need to look in the mirror and apply some fresh perspective to be more successful against both being mired in the past and offsetting the corporate/GOP propaganda.
It really isn’t THAT hard to do. There’s a building undercurrent of potential empathy with unions they haven’t tapped yet. Many people, even those who consider themselves conservative, are starting to understand two things:
One: Virtually ALL the $ and benefits of any growth in our economy is going to the very top, whilst the rank and file (pun intended) are standing still. The game is rigged.
Two: There are very, very few jobs that aren’t at risk of being either outsourced, replaced or eliminated and it’s clear that a pre-purchased gov’t that supports trade agreemnents is only making things worse. Lack of job security affects almost everyone and should be leveraged to enhance respect for unions that could, if they effectively managed their message and modified their approach, COULD create a solid connection with a new audience.
If I was a union manager, I’d focus on getting our internal house in order by instituting more merit-based elements (including dismissals), required certifications that are meaningful, and promote how they’re changing to make their work more like non-union average Joe’s, save they enforce work/life balance and job security (where possible).
They can point to successful economies that have high unionization and high quality of work/life balance, places like Germany.
They COULD do this. Will they?
February 17, 2015 at 4:36 pm #821733
JTBParticipantJd,
I agree we need a revitalizing of mass organizations to advance the rights and welfare of working people. What that might look like is hard to imagine, but I think Occupy Wall Street demonstrated the potential and need for collective action remains.
I the meanwhile, I think it is worthwhile to support what little union activity remains rather than wish it would go away entirely. I also believe most of the alienation against unions you speak of is the result of a political bias acquired through misinformation and distortion as much as anything. It’s a little like the “welfare queen” stereotype that was plumped up and recycled endlessly to the point it has become uncritically accepted as an accurate picture of welfare recipients.
February 17, 2015 at 5:07 pm #821734
Jd seattleParticipantWake- I agree with a more merit based system. The current seniority system most unions rely on is what keeps that “lazy” stereotype flurishing. I know quite a few guys that are in or have been in construction based unions. Some love it and blend in with the crowd nicely, others have left because they want to move up the ranks based on performance but are unable to in any reasonable amount of time. They end up doing better outside of the union.
JTB – yes a lot of it is political, especially for ones that are not directly affected/in contact with union members. For those of us in the trades that sometimes interact directly with the union members it seems to be based more off of those interactions than political influence. At least in my experience anyway.
The face of unions for many people is the five guys in orange vests watching one guy dig a hole on the side of the road. A lot of people assume this is the union way and base their opinions on those scenarios.
February 17, 2015 at 5:33 pm #821735
SmittyParticipant“The face of unions for many people is the five guys in orange vests watching one guy dig a hole on the side of the road. A lot of people assume this is the union way and base their opinions on those scenarios.”
Or, more specific to the current debate, if you’ve ever watched a cruise ship come into port; One guy catching the rope. One guy tying it to the cleat. One guy watching both. And one guy in his car supervising the other three. It’s ridiculous and has zero to do with safety or fair wages. This is the “face” of longshoreman.
Full disclosure – I have two uncles and a cousin (go figure!) that have worked the docks for decades.
February 17, 2015 at 7:47 pm #821736
texasMemberah, the face of envy. Everyone knows that lineman is one of the most dangerous jobs on the docks. Many have been killed and/or injured by those lines, which is why the staffing requirement is higher. And by the way, no one will be sitting in his/her truck. IF everything goes well, it an easy and quick job, so it’s not the industrious who like to take it. I can point to hundreds of jobs, and individuals, who work hard, move fast, stay late and go early. Let’s talk about lashing….
In my experience, it’s not unusual to see extended family members contemptuous of union members (why is that aXXH&$e making good wages while I’m slaving away at Target?)- until they need financial help, or a place to stay, or a hand up.
February 17, 2015 at 8:20 pm #821737
SmittyParticipant“ah, the face of envy.”
Where have you been, Texas? That has been the common theme for liberals going on 15 years now (they conveniently forget the late 90’s high tech millionaires because their guy was Preznint.
Who cares if “I” am doing better than I was in 2000, my neighbor is doing even better, so something must be wrong!
February 18, 2015 at 3:06 am #821738
JoBParticipantthose who think the benefits we gained with unions will stay if they are eliminated are indulging in a whole lot of wishful thinking
and don’t read much history
February 19, 2015 at 2:05 am #821739
waynsterParticipantOh my china goods I won’t be able to buy my china goods from walmart or other foreign goods I’ll have to buy U.S. made products and union made products and put us citizens to work oh my goodness… give me a break poor poor people…..
February 19, 2015 at 5:19 pm #821740
dobroParticipantNicholas Kristof (not a liberal by any means) on unions in the NYT…
February 19, 2015 at 11:42 pm #821741
miwsParticipantFebruary 20, 2015 at 12:05 am #821742
wakefloodParticipantGreat link, dobro! How timely.
February 20, 2015 at 12:23 am #821743
JoBParticipantsomebody should tell FAUX news
if they repeat it America will believe it :(
and yes.. i am having a cynical day
February 20, 2015 at 2:56 pm #821744
SmittyParticipant“somebody should tell FAUX news
if they repeat it America will believe it :(“
I much prefer Dan Rather and Brian Williams………;-)
February 20, 2015 at 6:12 pm #821745
beachdrivegirlParticipantIt’s not just imports PP. It’s ecports too. And by shutting down exports we are costing jobs and hurting our economy.
Thank God it sounds like the government is fibally pushing then to settle
February 21, 2015 at 1:25 am #821746
dobroParticipantLet’s take a look at that article and use our reading comprehension skills, shall we?
“Starting this fall, problems reached crisis levels as dockworkers slowed their work rate to comply fully with safety rules and companies that load and unload ships rolled out partial worker lockouts.
Employers said they would not pay extra wages on holidays and weekends to dockworkers they accused of purposely slowing down as a bargaining tactic, which their union denies.”
Let’s look at this sentence..
“Starting this fall, problems reached crisis levels as dockworkers slowed their work rate to comply fully with safety rules…”
Does this mean that their normal work rate was unsafe? That seems silly. My guess is its a way to falsely equivocate a phony “slowdown” with the reality of this…
“…and companies that load and unload ships rolled out partial worker lockouts.”
Notice they had to qualify the worker side of the deal, as they go on to say this…
“Employers said they would not pay extra wages on holidays and weekends to dockworkers they accused of purposely slowing down as a bargaining tactic, which their union denies.”
So the employers have definitely locked out workers while making a silly accusation that the workers slowed their work to “comply fully” with safety rules. But these are presented as equivalent.
Words mean stuff. Try to read them correctly.
February 21, 2015 at 2:37 am #821747
waynsterParticipantwell breaking news they have a tentative agreement……goes to a vote now…
.komonews.com/news/local/2-sides-in-West-Coast-ports-dispute-reach-tentative-contract-293092601.html
hehe…
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