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April 7, 2008 at 8:08 pm #617617
beachdrivegirlParticipantAll I am saying that I find it funny that factcheck.org is relying on hear say quotes as fact and are deciding what should and should not be counted as bills….. I am not quite sure that it is as unbiased as you all think.
April 7, 2008 at 8:12 pm #617618
AnonymousInactiveYou don’t think the Clintons ever donate time for good causes? How about this quote…
Trevor Neilson, president of the Global Philanthropy Group, which advises wealthy clients on philanthropic strategy, said he is not surprised by the Clintons’ approach to charity.
“The most important asset that Bill Clinton has is not his personal checkbook,” Neilson said. “It’s his ability to create sweeping change by getting people to do things that they don’t want to do for the good of the world.”
For example: the New York-based William Jefferson Clinton Foundation, which has directed more than $10 billion in corporate money and resources toward slowing the spread of AIDS, addressing climate change, and reducing hunger and poverty.
And why is a problem that they also have their own charity and put their own money into it?
April 7, 2008 at 8:12 pm #617619
JoBParticipantBeachdrivegirl..
Hillary is married to Bill Clinton.. an ex President of the United States. It is quite common for ex Presidents to create a foundation to carry on the charitable work they support after their death.
When Bill and Hillary give money to the foundation, they don’t get it back.
Most charitable foundations are set up in such a way that they have to keep a certain percentage of money or an endowment intact to generate future income for the foundation.
as to Bill’s clothing donations.. i have no idea what you are talking about or where you got the information…
if it was the same source, i would question it since the information on their foundation has obviously been presented with more innuendo than fact…
April 7, 2008 at 8:21 pm #617620
AnonymousInactiveDid you read who factcheck is and what they do on their about page?
Politicians and their supporters state hearsay and they research the validity for us.
April 7, 2008 at 8:24 pm #617621
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl…
re factcheck you said..
“factcheck.org is relying on hear say quotes as fact “
whoa nelly!
repeating campaign rhetoric is one thing.. but shooting the messenger just because you don’t like the message probably won’t change the facts.
They are truly an equal opportunity bull meter… if you read their postings. you would know that.
as for the charity thing…
Bill and Hillary only donated 50% of their charitable contributions to Bill’s Foundation… (relying entirely on your data) the rest they gave to organizations they don’t control… and i think that half still exceeded Obama’s contributions…
Now, in all fairness, Obama didn’t have that much to give before writing his book.. but that’s why we compare percentages not dollars…
do you know what your contribution percentage is?
Ours is about 2% if one uses our gross income as base… however it becomes 4% if you look at adjsuted income.
That is slightly above normal for the average American… and i think we can include Obama’s income as roughly average before his book income.
So.. he was midrange normal in contributions prior to the substantial increase in his income generated by his book royalties…
April 7, 2008 at 8:35 pm #617622
charlabobParticipantThis little sidebar is ridiculous (not YOU BDG!!!) — I loathe almost everything about the outcome of Clinton’s policies in the 90’s. From Welfare, to NAFTA, to Health Care, to “Don’t ask don’t tell” — he was, let us say, a disappointment. That’s why I want no part of his wife, his cat, his best friend, his secretary of commerce anywhere near policy ever again.
Most of what he did wrong and what I expect his spouse to do wrong was strictly because of cowardice. If he’d thrown me under the bus the way he threw her under the bus at the first smell of healthcare trouble I would have dumped him and made sure he never got elected to anything again. OTOH, he’d have known that and I wouldn’t have seen the underside of that bus carriage.
But he is generous, committed to helping humanity globally — one of the few people who has (had?) the clout to make a difference. One of the saddest things I can imagine is that he may have blown that for the ridiculous food fight that has become his wife’s campaign.
(I imagine if he donated torn socks, it was because someone would pay $5K for them — look what cornflakes in the shape of Jesus go for on ebay.)
I also believe Obama will be equally generous, when, after two terms as president, he is equally popular and wealthy.
April 7, 2008 at 8:36 pm #617623
beachdrivegirlParticipantI was reading factcheck.org since January. 80% of what they say I believe is unbiased; however, some of their articles dont just check out. And get real, nothing can be 100% unbiased. And yes i have read were factcheck.org originated etc. They were actually funded by Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania. And I believe if I remember right that the Anenberg family was a very conservative Republican family..hmmm unbiased???
April 7, 2008 at 8:39 pm #617624
AnonymousInactiveCharlabob, you have a way with words. You had me at *his cat* :)
April 7, 2008 at 9:06 pm #617625
charlabobParticipantI never did trust that damned Socks … even though we have a cat who looks exactly like hir, named Noam Katsky. Now THAT’s a cat you can trust.
April 7, 2008 at 10:20 pm #617626
AnonymousInactiveThis sums up my thoughts better than I could say it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-baldwin/who-can-beat-mccain_b_95300.html
April 8, 2008 at 12:02 am #617627
JanSParticipantJT….I like Alec Baldwin…and really like what he had to say…we need to go after McBush….
visit the McCain thread – lol…I go there often :)
April 9, 2008 at 7:57 pm #617628
walfredoMemberhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geZrXw6ZnFs&eurl=http://www.obamaiswinning.com/
Why Hillary lost- a good video for anyone still trying to figure out how the establishments candidate didn’t win this time…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWvR30VzSZQ&feature=user
Here’s her trying to change history, and blatantly lying in the process. Unfortunately for her, the decision to do this came much too late…
April 10, 2008 at 3:02 am #617629
JoBParticipantmy my..
Obama folks get testy when you question the basis for their “facts”…
so you don’t like factcheck.
Just where would you like to fact check those facts you keep bandying about??? those things like Obama’s record as a senator…
which i pointed out didn’t hold water the first time that blog entry was referenced here.
Because if you actually do the research and follow sources and links back to their source.. they turn out to be pretty darn accurate on that one…
i haven’t taken the time to source factcheck.. i just appreciate them.
but, i suppose you must think they are selectively wrong and this is just more proof to you that Hillary is in bed with the right wing conservatives and they just bend the facts so she can win … just like they do on the news ;->
Critical thinking is what is called for here…
April 10, 2008 at 3:18 am #617630
JoBParticipantI loved the Alec Baldwin article. … very well thought out for anything about the democratic primary on the Huffington Post these days…
i liked his analysis and thought it pretty much spot on…
When it came to experience, he compared Obama to Bush.. not Hillary.. No argument there:)
He implied Obama was more electable… because some people just won’t vote for a woman… and he is right, some won’t.
But clearly there are already men who support Hillary and when it comes to the general election… any democrat who cares about this country will vote for the democratic candidate.
As for the independents, i think his implication overlooks that over half of them are women.
lastly, he said that Obama would attract some very bright visionary people… who might not be attracted to politics otherwise.
I suspect he is right, but am not sure that is such a good thing right now.
He said two very revealing things about Hillary in that article…
the first was that the prejudice against women is very strong…
in other words, sexism just might be a larger issue in this campaign than racism… no matter how little noise has been made about sexism and how much about racism.
the second is that Hillary would play congress like a fiddle if elected…
Hmmm.. the country is in a mess. We desperately need the maximum cooperation from Congress to make immediate changes to undo legislation and policies foisted upon us in the last 8 years….
don’t we need someone who can play congress like a violin right now?
The time for visionaries is when the country is more stable and they can take the time to consider what should be done and how to do it.. not while we are in crisis…
people who would not normally be attracted to politics generally have no real idea how things work.. and while they may have great ideas..may not be able to get much done with them. Can we afford more gridlock right now?
it might be a good idea for some of you to reread that article and think about what he actually had to say… it’s not the ringing endorsement for an Obama candidacy one would hope for at the Huffington Post.
April 10, 2008 at 3:29 am #617631
JoBParticipantjt..
i just went back to follow Walfredos links…
and realized who made the post about the Alec Baldwin article..
and also realized that you or others could erroneously think i thought you didn’t know what you were reading.
just for the record.. i am pretty sure you read that article carefully and knew exactly what it said…
he did lay out the real contest here…
“playing congress like a fiddle”
or “visionaries who might not otherwise be attracted to politics”
the second sounds great when we are all tired of business as usual.. but don’t we have to change the republican business as usual and get Congress actually functioning with a president first?
i think so. i know you are still undecided.
April 10, 2008 at 4:04 am #617632
beachdrivegirlParticipantFact Check decided without merit to what they felt was the more “real” way to count bills.Furthermore, they decided that state senate doesnt count but other articles of theirs counts the First Lady as experience. It just does not add up. I don’t think they can just decide what can and can not be counted that is just one of the many reasons why I feel that factcheck is not 100% non-biased.
I found it quite impressive today to find not one, but two articles on realpolitics.com that discussed the most important factor of a Presidential canidate Leadership. The first article addressed Hillary’s lack of leadership in running her campaign. which is a major issue. If you can not manage a simple campaign (I had mentioned this weeks ago in another political thread) how are you going to manage a country without failing! The second article addresses Obamas vs. McCains leadership.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9478.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/04/a_country_for.html
April 10, 2008 at 4:21 am #617633
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl…
i think how Hillary manages her campaign is pretty subjective, don’t you?
i think she is doing a pretty good job of managing her campaign. She is still in the race in spite of being counted down and out more than once…
and if you would like to now how she manages a legislative office.. you could check into how she has managed her Senate office… no problems there.
of course, that doesn’t make good press, does it?
April 10, 2008 at 4:25 am #617634
beachdrivegirlParticipantDid you read the article? Not only has she had no control of those who were supposed to be campaigning for her which I had mentioned weeks ago, but she has had to loan her campaign money and leave many vendors unpaid. With our economy upside down i find it critical that we find someone who can manage it. And the first step to finding someone to manage it is finding someone that can manage their own finances which she obviously struggles to do.
April 10, 2008 at 4:28 am #617635
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl..
sorry i missed your other point..
i am not going to argue about how Fastcheck “counted” experience because i haven’t looked closely at that one… and i am going to pass on doing so.
But i do know you are biased because you don’t believe that being an actively involved first lady counts at all and don’t believe she should take any credit for the children’s health care bill even tho Ted Kennedy said she was instrumental in getting it passed.
but i do know that the same standard was applied to both Clinton and Obama at Factcheck when they analyzed Senate records.. which can’t be said for the other analysis you referred to.
If you can point to another analysis which uses exactly the same standards for both candidate to analyze their records, i would be more than happy to follow the links to it.
Heck, i even follow Walfredo’s links tho i usually ask myself why i bothered afterwards.. they are so predictably biased.
I would actually be interested to follow yours.
April 10, 2008 at 4:28 am #617636
AnonymousInactiveBDG, When factcheck counted bills they used the same standards for both candidates. The other counts they criticized had used different standards for each candidate.
April 10, 2008 at 4:35 am #617637
JoBParticipantbeachdrivegirl…
of course i read the article… i just think it is making much ado about nothing.
Hillary didn’t gear up to bankrupt the democratic party by spending mega dollars on a primary she didn’t know would be so hotly contested.
And how well managed is his money when he outspends her at least two to one and still hasn’t secured the nomination.
Have you asked yourself how Obama can possibly keep raising the kind of money he is spending in the primary for the real race this fall?
and if the press looked as closely at the shennanigans of the Obama campaign as they have at Hillary’s campaign… or if Hillary hotly demanded the resignation of his staff as often as he demands of hers.. his wouldn’t look so well managed either.
That conclusions of that article depends a great deal upon what they chose to focus on…
The story they don’t tell is generally far more interesting.
April 10, 2008 at 6:23 am #617638
charlabobParticipant<Job on visionaries>
“Lastly, he (Baldwin) said that Obama would attract some very bright visionary people… who might not be attracted to politics otherwise.
“I suspect he is right, but am not sure that is such a good thing right now
“The time for visionaries is when the country is more stable and they can take the time to consider what should be done and how to do it.. not while we are in crisis…
“People who would not normally be attracted to politics generally have no real idea how things work.. and while they may have great ideas..may not be able to get much done with them. Can we afford more gridlock right now?”
<End of Job>
JoB, you’ve outdone yourself. I don’t have the time or the energy to refute every last claim in all of your litanies and, as has often been said when people dare to criticize Clinton in the multiple Pro-Clinton threads, no minds are changed by long tirades.
However, I can’t let your outrageous attack on “Visionaries” and people new to politics go unchallenged. To say we can’t afford visionaries in a time of crisis is absolutely ridiculous and not worthy of you.
Herbert Hoover was a practical, non-visionary engineer. The person who saved us from his disasters was FDR, a visionary, delegator, big picture person who was pretty much accused of the same litany as Obama when he ran.
Frankly, your statement is the most ludicrous and disingenuous claim I’ve read on any side in this campaign, including from McCain.
What we don’t need is the same plodding hacks who got us here, and, sadly, those hacks exist on both sides of the aisle. Many of them are already working for Clinton. Some of them will undoubtedly come to work for Obama; hopefully a smaller number.
We don’t have time to think before we act because we’re in trouble??? I hope you know better than that.
You say people new to politics don’t know how to get things done, so we have to reelect same tired old faces? Again, I know you know better than that. We’ve seen what’s been done by people who know how to get things done. We can’t afford even one more year of that.
All we can get from the same tired old faces is the same tired old “solutions” that have failed over and over.
I must be so cruel as to remind you of your huge enthusiasm for the young woman, new to politics, who was elected a Clinton delegate. Apparently she didn’t show up at the LD — that’s why you were a delegate there, yes?
Visionaries are exactly what we need now — people who think so far out of the box that they can’t see the box.
People who can inspire the American(sic) people and congresspeople on both sides to be and do better than they have been.
As you know very well there is no reason to think Obama won’t work cooperatively with congress. The Clinton attack machine is doing everything they can to create huge chasms to make that impossible, but they are failing. Hence the increasingly shrill and desperate tone of their campaign. Once again, they’re dragging out the preacher libel, perhaps hoping no one remembers the fire and brimstone nature of Dr King’s rhetoric.
To repeat: Vision is exactly what we need and it’s exactly why the DLC wonks are so afraid of Obama. They know he combines the intelligence of the wonks and the ability to inspire that’s been sadly missing on our side.
I’m very sad for you, Job. I can’t imagine what it feels like to be so cynical.
April 10, 2008 at 6:57 am #617639
AnonymousInactiveWhile I’m not sad for JoB b/c she’s a big girl and handles life pretty well, I am going to say…point to Charla.
and BDG, a point you made awhile ago that I didn’t acknowledge, was that you try not to take news or *facts* from just one source. I think that is good advice for all of us.
April 10, 2008 at 6:58 am #617640
JanSParticipantvision…Charla…you brought up MLK…so thought I’d add this link that was on the MLK thread…
it’s long…but worth a watch…makes one think about “vision” and “visionaries”…and how important they are….
April 10, 2008 at 2:18 pm #617641
JoBParticipantgetting to know your candidate…
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/03/obama200803
even if it came from me, it’s good reading..
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