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  • #617342

    JohnM
    Member

    What exactly makes Hillary more qualified?

    #617343

    Sue
    Participant

    What I don’t understand is why any energy is even being put into whether Clinton or Obama are better than the other. At this point, I don’t have any say in the matter – the caucus is over, the primary was pointless (for democrats) here, so the next time I’m asked to vote, the decision will have already been made for me on which democratic candidate I can choose to vote for. I ask this in all seriousness: is there anything we can truly do as WA democrats that can influence the decision at this point as to who gets nominated?

    #617344

    JoB
    Participant

    villagegreen…

    the article you linked in SLATE actually is an example of exactly what i was trying to point out.

    I read the entire article.. and at no point did it actually defend Obama’s experience… it simply was a rant that could have been titled.. what right does she have to claim experience…

    and right there.. in the article you linked to was this classy little line, “her sharing Bill Clinton’s bed most nights while he was Arkansas governor and president of the United States.”

    Blatant sexism… yet that’s ok with you?

    I get the idea anything is ok with Obama supporters as long as it puts Hillary in her place while nothing is ok if it questions Obama.

    Thin skins don’t’ get elected. righteous indignation will only take you so far…

    and.. the real kicker… disrespect has a trickle down effect.

    You might not find it so wonderful to be dismissed as someone’s bedmate just because the man you married happened to share your life’s work…

    go to MSNBC and look a their political cartoons and ask yourself what most of them really have to do with Hillary’s candidacy… and those are the relatively clean ones…

    #617345

    rs261
    Member

    “Going by years spent as an elective official, Obama’s 11 years exceeds Clinton’s seven, which in turn exceeds Edwards’ six. But it’s a silly calculus.”

    Shes the one touting experience not him. He’s the one touting unity of the parties and the country

    And we still dont know why she is more qualified.

    #617346

    JoB
    Participant

    Sue asked: “is there anything we can truly do as WA democrats that can influence the decision at this point as to who gets nominated?”

    this is a good question and i don’t have an answer.

    Ken, do you?

    JohnM… what makes Hillary more qualified? i think i went there and did that in the go hillary thread and a couple more. ..

    look under the political discussions at the top…

    As for what makes her more qualified as commander in chief.. i can supply one little detail… something i listened to on Democracy Now…

    There was a group of retired military commanders who were briefing all of the candidates (who chose to be briefed) on what they thought the military should do about the current middle east situation. all of the democratic candidates at the time attended.. but only two stayed and asked more questions.. Biden and Clinton.

    She really does want to know all of the details..

    if i do the rest of why Hillary again, kayleigh will mutiny:) and possibly with cause:)

    #617347

    WSMom
    Member

    http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/videos.jhtml?videoId=163288

    Kayleigh: I too am a Obama supporter. I believe he is the best person to inspire and lead our nation out of the mess the Republican has party has driven our country into. There were times, especially after reading JoB’s musings, that I felt a tinge of regret that Hillary hadn’t done a better job grabbing my imagination, as I have tremendous respect for her intelligence and tenacity. As a Obama supporter, I have felt the need in talking with friends to defend Clinton (using JoB’s talking points), because if she somehow does end up with the Democratic nomination it is imperative that our nation come together to put a Democrat into office. For me it is as simple as that. We cannot have another four years of business as usual. I believe our children’s future depends on this.

    On a different note, I’m curious what you make of the Newsweek article which says that Hillary’s best case delagate count scenario will in the end put her behind Obama. I’m trying to understand why she is going negative to continue her campaign given the math. This seems counter-intelligent. Any thoughts?

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/118240

    #617348

    JoB
    Participant

    ok.. i followed Charlabob’s link to the rolling stone articles.. and i will have their endorsement rattling around my head for a while… while i sort the very good and impassioned writer from reality…

    but there are a couple of things there that still bother me… in spite of their skill. one is the obvious… it’s all about his campaign.. but once he is elected.. what have we elected?

    the endorsement comes close to that.. but there is something there that makes me uncomfortable as well… on global warming she says he is not on board but she is sure his intelligence will lead him there…

    this rings too much of the political endorsements in many major newspapers for Bush.. he hasn’t come through with any of his campaign promises but we liked them so we want to give him another chance to do what he said he would…

    i am not equating Bush and Obama.. but i am saying that resting your endorsement on hope may not be in your best interests.

    #617349

    JoB
    Participant

    WSMom.. you can crunch numbers any way you want to.. but until they decide what to do about Florida and Michigan.. and until it’s done.. we don’t know….

    and.. since several super delegates have supposedly changed their allegiance… it goes without saying that we really don’t know until they vote.. they could still do anything.

    it’s not over till the fat lady sings.. but i confess to not knowing who the fat lady is:)

    #617350

    rs261
    Member

    Barack Obama

    Would implement an economy-wide cap-and-trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to the level recommended by top scientists. Would make the United States a leader in the global effort to combat climate change by leading anew international global warming partnership. Would establish a National Low Carbon Fuel Standard (LCFS) to speed the introduction of low-carbon non-petroleum fuels. Would create a Technology Transfer program within the Department of Energy dedicated to exporting climate-friendly technologies to developing countries. Would offer incentives to maintain forests globally and manage them sustainably. Would develop domestic incentives that reward forest owners, farmers and ranchers when they plant trees, restore grasslands or undertake farming practices that capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

    Hillary Clinton

    Would develop a new treaty to replace the Kyoto Protocol, which is set to expire in 2012. Would focus on international attention to solve the problem of global deforestation. Would focus the mission of the Department of Energy on moving toward energy independence with a new approach to solar, wind, biofuels, hydropower, geothermal and other sources of renewable energy. Would place a market-based cap and trade system to reduce carbon pollution. …In combination with efficiency, fuel economy standards and other proposals, she states the system will ensure the goal of reducing U.S. contribution to global warming below 1990 levels by 80 percent. Would oppose drilling in the Arctic National Wildfire Refuge.

    Sounds like hes on board to clean things up to me. I always think its more about who you surround yourself with then what you believe. As long as the right people are in the right positions they’ll do the right thing. Al Gore will probably end up in some sort of environmental spot sooner or later…

    Yes, the super delegates..you cant forget those. Like the skit on SNL the other day with Huckabee.

    #617351

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    NewResident – I wasn’t kidding you. None of the candidates have experience as the president. They all will have to learn the job on the job. As for political experience in it’s entirety, it has already been established that Obama has the most (11 years). My other concerns would be, where do you stand on the issues, how smart are you, how willing are you to learn and listen to experts. How effective of a leader would you be? Can you work with both sides and implement your ideas? Can you restore our standing in the world community? Etc., etc.

    Are you trying to say Bush knew/knows what he’s doing, cuz I sure don’t see it that way.

    #617352

    Kayleigh
    Member

    WSMom, I think she’s counting on the superdelegates…not sure why else she would do that. Seems like a shaky propostion, though, and look how many of us she is alienating.

    I don’t know how else to tell the party that if Hillary is the nominee, that I believe the party is making a mistake and going in the wrong direction, other than not voting for her.

    We have to change the direction of the country. We just have to. Of course McCain won’t do it and Nader can’t do it without the support of a major party. Edwards was our best hope, and now we have Obama.

    #617353

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    JT – I know that you’re not kidding. I realize you are a passionate Obama supporter. I don’t get it, but according to Kayleigh, I never will since I am Republican.

    By the way, Obama does not have the most experience compared to ALL candidates.

    Everyone wants to share their favorite article that paints their candidate in the best light. Follow this link for pure facts and compare.

    http://projects.washingtonpost.com/2008-presidential-candidates/

    #617354

    beachdrivegirl
    Participant

    Below is a link to some research done not just on the quantity of bills passed but also the quality of bills passed for McCain, Obama, and Clinton. As you will see Clinton has written 155 bills and has passed 13 in 2007. Obama has written 115 bills and passed 21 in 2007. I urge everyone out there to click on the link and read what each Senator has been adviacating while in Washington. I believe that those individuals that are doubting Obama will feel a bit more @ ease after reading through the bills he has written and got passed.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633

    #617355

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Thanks for the link beachdrivegirl

    #617356

    JoB
    Participant

    JT.. what am i to do with you?

    stats only work if you understand their framework.

    “As for political experience in it’s entirety, it has already been established that Obama has the most (11 years).”

    so.. no political experience counts unless it is elected office??? interesting.

    I don’t think you really believe that when it is put that way.

    beachdrivegirl…

    “As you will see Clinton has written 155 bills and has passed 13 in 2007. Obama has written 115 bills and passed 21 in 2007.”

    was there nothing happening in Washington prior to 2007? How did he do the previous year when he didn’t have teddy’s help?

    But let’s just take 2007.

    i followed the link and looked at every bill quoted…. and i found i didn’t agree with the writer’s emphasis…

    one of the things she liked about Obama, i really didn’t. she liked that his bills affected far more people.. broader range is how she put it i think.

    But in her two real examples, the Clinton alternative actually offered more real protection and solutions to those who need it most.

    She liked that Obama was concerned about lead paint in toys…. passing laws to make sure that toys are regulated… after all.. to paraphrase her… there were millions of toys

    whereas Clinton wanted to get lead paint out of homes…. and only a few homes have lead paint…

    Lead paint exists mostly in the homes of the very poor who don’t have the option of simply moving… and Hillary’s vehicle of tax incentives would actually have helped those who chose to take on urban renewal (buying a marginal house.. fixing it and living in it or selling it) as well… a well considered bill that would have had immediate effect in removing lead paint from homes….

    Aside from the fact that I am more concerned with lead paint in homes.. where people don’t have the option of simply moving away… than with toys that are generally simply replaced when they are found to be toxic… his bill would have created more laws. hers offered a practical solution for eliminating lead paint from homes…

    same with the mtg issue.. Hillary wanted good disclosure laws on contracts so that people know what they are signing… this would have had an immediate effect on those defrauding the poor who are generally less savvy because banks would have stepped up their scrutiny… they wouldn’t have wanted to be the one left holding worthless paper…

    he wanted laws making mtg fraud illegal… fraud is already illegal… very hard to prosecute because you have to prove deliberate intent to defraud.. and as the FBI is finding out right now.. that’s not so easy. but still illegal.

    Again, he wanted more laws.. she wanted regulations that would directly effect the real outcome of non-disclosure in mtg transactions…

    When you are looking at these pieces that seem to be so well researched, it’s good to look at the assumptions built into the arguments to see if you actually agree with them.

    This writer’s basic assumption was that a bill’s worth could be measured by it’s passage… not by it’s content. i think that’s a bad assumption.

    rs261.. thanks for supplying some real info.. i was only quoting the endorsement in the Rolling stones article…

    and i forgot to pick up the Rolling Stone while i was at the grocery.. probably a fruedian slip:)

    NewResident.. i am sorry.. i was unable to follow your link…

    One thing i have noticed… nobody comments on the really ugly issues i have raised… they just go on to find new points….

    #617357

    beachdrivegirl
    Participant

    Efficieny is very important to me. Who is goign to get the job done at the end of the day? Hillary was only able to pass 8% of her bills while Obama was able to pass 18%.

    #617358

    beachdrivegirl
    Participant

    Efficieny is very important to me. Who is goign to get the job done at the end of the day? Hillary was only able to pass 8% of her bills while Obama was able to pass 18%.

    #617359

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    JoB – I agree that nobody will respond to the bad points of Obama. Everyone very quickly just starts talking about why Clinton is so wrong.

    Can someone please go into detail about what exactly Obama has done (in all his experience) that you agree with (not just what he’s saying he’s going to do)!! And don’t just refer us to an article you happen to agree with. Also, if you talk about his next door neighbor (or lack thereof) you get extra credit!

    #617360

    beachdrivegirl
    Participant

    Obama is projected winner of Mississippi! Go OBama!

    #617361

    beachdrivegirl
    Participant

    Obama is projected winner of Mississippi! Go OBama!

    #617362

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I don’t know why my link isn’t working for you, JoB. When I try it, it works fine. It pretty much is just bare facts (DOB, how long in office, previous jobs, etc.) But if you want to look at experience and things these candidates have done, it lays it out there pretty straight forward.

    #617363

    beachdrivegirl
    Participant

    What about S.AMDT.524 S. Con RES 21 to add $100 million for low income students to lessen the gap in education??? or the numerous bills in reference to our armed forces such as the bill to provide employment security for families who are caring for injured while on active duty? I believe we can all pick on or find weakness in at least one bill that each canidate has written and passed but you cant dwell on it. When reading these successes of Obama’s Clintons bills do not compete.

    #617364

    JoB
    Participant

    beachdrivegirl…

    so you don’t care about the content of bills?

    any bill passed counts for you as efficiency?

    So.. you are more interested in form than function?

    Because that is exactly what that comment says…

    BTW.. just in case you didn’t know or understand… a bill has a much better chance of passing if it happens to include compromises for nearly every legislator who votes for it… most bills that pass start out being worth something and by the time they reach the lowest common denominator aren’t worth much… at least their core purpose isn’t.. generally their pork is.

    perhaps you should check out some of those individual bills that make up the stats and see if you like what he was passing…

    i have been so busy today that i missed Mississippi altogether.. and probably a lot more besides…

    i am glad for you…

    I will wait to see how i really weigh in on today’s primaries after i see how the delegates are apportioned… after all a win might not mean much…

    at least that’s what you told me when it was the other candidate in texas and ohio:)

    #617365

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Oh JoB – I guess I just like to see you riled up:) The whole experience comment was just in response to NR being appalled that I think it’s ok to surround yourself with talented, expert people and to use their knowledge. She was looking for “political” experience as the only experience that counts. I think experience comes from a wide variety of places myself. And really, the truth is, I would be completely happy with either Hillary or Barack and will wholeheartedly support whomever gets the nomination.

    #617366

    JoB
    Participant

    I want someone to explain something to me….

    WSmom shared with me that she had decided to back Obama because he had captured the interest in politics and excitement of her child.

    There is a female democratic senator who said much the same thing…

    And then in Newsweek i read a piece by the son of Joanne Atler.. a real life hero for breaking the gender barrier in chicago politics… which nearly concludes with this:

    “When my two sisters became active Obama volunteers and her granddaughters as well as grandsons grew excited about politics for the first time, my mother began to think about the contest in a new way. The next president was for them, not her, she reasoned. Slowly idealism edged identity.”

    the general philosophy behind all this seems to be that idealism trumps all else in politics…

    (i have chosen to let the idea that the only reason to support Hillary is gender slip past with only a mention).

    This reads too much like a song inspiration for me.. What the world needs now…. is idealism?

    I know that those of us who are my age would love to put politics and reality on the back burner right now.. this is not the world we thought our idealism would lead us to…

    and quite frankly.. it didn’t work out so well the first time… other than ending the war in Vietnam and watching Richard Nixon dig himself deeper and deeper into what really should have been criminal charges… life didn’t take and idealistic turn…

    as a nation, we seemed to brush ourselves off.. say we were done with that… we got our gestures.. and went back to business as usual.

    Affluent blacks and women did gain a lot from our idealism… and we have made progress as a nation in some areas…

    but we obviously were not done with sensless war or with the underground war against women, blacks, immigrants, the poor .. in other words.. anyone in our society who wasn’t white, male and well educated… oh.. and affluent.

    We have allowed our government to make a mess of things… Our economy is in trouble. Our environment is in trouble. Our health care industry now provides us marginal health at maximum prices. We are at war.

    I am all for idealism.. but wouldn’t it be good to actually straighten out a few of these problems first.. before we hand the torch on to our unsuspecting children and grandchildren? … who idealists that they are… think they will do a better job than we did.

    Somehow, this seems wrong to me.

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