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    ok…it looks like no one really wants to start this…so..at the risk of offending some….here’s a video that I think might start people talking…




    Thanks, Jan.

    But hmm, where would Huckabee or Romney come in on the lineup … haven’t studied them too closely yet.



    And anyone who’s seen “Who Killed the Electric Car, would have some thoughts for the 500-gallon coin and the thousand-gallon coin, too. Remember when “What was good for GM, was good for the Country.” Different era, different media, but – hey, we all got suckered in then. That was the heyday of the late 40’s and ’50’s when it was drive everywhere on gas so cheap it must have made your head spin. As a teenager in PA, I used to fill my mom’s car with Gulftane – I think it was 85 octane, but it was only 12 cents a gallon and her tank only held 13 gallons. All I needed to do after a date was make sure I had a dollar left in my pocket. We all fell for it then, too. And now we argue over how to replace the Viaduct. How ’bout electric cars? At least our electricity is “mostly” renewable and does a small amount of damage (fish) and its cost is pretty darned predictable.



    Of course, a super-lightweight, super-strong and crash-absorbent vehicle which ran on solar or wind or rain would be cool, too. Maybe use your rain car in the winter and your solar car in the summer and your wind car in the spring and fall. What we need is about a thousand innovators and outside-of-the-box tinkerers and a community or region willing to experiment.



    very well done, very creative and sadly all too true, especially the stmt (among many others) – Bush: fighting terrorism by creating it.



    hmmm…WSB…not sure about Huckabee and Romney. I have some Mormon friends who think that Mr. Romney can do no wrong…but…for me, he’s a scary dude…not because of his religion, but because he has flip flopped so much he puts Mr. Kerry to shame. He just doesn’t seem very real.

    Mr. Huckabee is a different story. He’s a pleasant enough man, great sense of humor…polished…has musical talent, and appeals to a lot of people. I don’t trust him…he’s got a mean streak, and I sense that there is a different man inside that hasn’t come out yet.

    And, frankly, in my humble opinion, neither has what it takes to lead this country, especially one that will be left at war, and an economy that is shaky in so many areas. I’m sure there are many who feel differently….anyone?



    chas…I saw an article about a car just the other day…that gets “300 mpg”…runs partially on electricity, so the “mpg” thing doens’t ring very true, as…how do you measure electricity in mpg’s…but it was an interesting looking vehicle…

    jetson’s , anyone?


    I find it interesting that more and more people are talking about the economy, especially surrounding gas prices, which in turn raises prices on goods, while sometimes income doesn’t keep up…as opposed to the war in Iraq, etc, becoming a lesser important thing…like it’s there, we’re learning to live with it, it’s just a fact, oh, well…very interesting indeed…



    Yesterday my teenager and I spent two hours on this link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21116732/

    listening to each of the viable candidates positions on major issues. Great learning experience for both of us. We’re still undecided between Sen.’s Clinton, Obama & Edwards. We feel that all three of them would be excellent change for the better. Listening to Romney, Guiliani & Huckabee was quite a learning experience too. There is no question in my mind that I will support whoever is on the Democrat ticket.



    Loved the video, Jan.

    Anybody considering voting for the genial and charming Mr. Huckabee, please read more about him. I realize Rolling Stone is not The Washington Post, but I go where I can to find provacative, interesting reporting (which is scarce now)…




    Excellent article Kayleigh, thanks for the link. I saw Huckabee on Leno briefly last week and thought he was slightly reminiscent of Clinton (bass playing 60’s kid ponying up to a late night talk show crowd), but thought nothing further of him until he won Iowa last Thursday. Now the full extent of his right-wingedness is so blatant and so over the top for my rational mind, that I hope any other Republican wins tonight for sanity sake.



    In reference to the Rolling Stones article, I wonder how one might feel if a report was done that we shouldn’t vote for Hillary becasue she is a woman, or Obama because he is african american? But this article has taken the task to make judgement calls and some pretty harsh words to go along with it against Huckabee and that he is a christian. Should not the criteria for our president be one who has a good political track record and seems to have the most reasonable policies and not what they believe or what gender and color?

    Andrea, what part of his right-wingedness do feel goes over your rational mind?

    And Jan what does it take to lead this country that those two do not posess?

    I am not trying to be snarky just wondering what my neighbors think.



    Wes. Do you know anything about the history of the Southern Baptist convention and the changes made to it when it was taken over by Dominionist and Reconstructionists in 1979-1980?

    Do you understand they forced out theologians and teachers that allowed any variations from the literal interpretation of the Bible, young earth creationism, and the paramount importance of the Old Testament and especially Leviticus?

    The Baptist used to vary greatly since one of the tenants of their faith was that God revealed his message to each minister and member through his or her own study of the Bible. This “free will” was a core value of the protestant reformation since it took power from the feudal catholic church’s authoritarian abuse.

    Here is a link to two of the better history and time-line pages.



    Huckabee may not have been in on the takeover but he has continued to adhere to its message which will lead inevitably to a theocracy.

    Gimme a mainstream Christian of any denomination and you will hear nothing from me on their religion until they too start mixing church and state.



    Also if anyone wants exaustive detail, here is an online book.




    And a really scary Huck ad.

    It has it all. Fearmongering, historical revisionism, destruction of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. A little something for everyone.



    I do not know anything about the history of the SBC , never claimed to. But despite that how could anyone, except by war and force impose a theocracy in our country. No way would this slide by our congress or judicial system. That’s a bit out there.

    I simply wanted to know why they specifically make the claims they do. Thank you for your input and information.

    I also could not get the pages to load on the online book.




    direct link to the pdf of the entire book. Might take a while to load on some connections. I just tested it.

    Maybe I will post some more info on the progress of the stealth takeover of the justice department and the military after dinner. :)



    It doesn’t bother me that Huckabee is a Christian, but I don’t like that he thinks the earth is 6,000 years old. I prefer a president who trusts science in matters like those.

    What REALLY bothers me is that Huckabee’s son tortured and killed a helpless stray dog, and Huckabee used his influence to keep his son out of trouble. Corrupt and vile.




    Well here is a story of recent evangelizing of active duty military.

    It is quite possible this is more of a convenient method of parting separating soldiers from their GI education benefits, than a takeover of the military, but the pressure at the Air Force academy is very real and has resulted in a decade of fundamentalist who believe the world is supposed to end in fire PDQ, having control of the largest nuclear arsenal ever assembled on the planet.

    Note this is posted at the Great Orange Satans site DailyKos…

    For more fun, read Bruce Wilson’s, How Fake American History Feeds Christian Nationalism



    Step 1: Change Beliefs About Origins of US Government. Step Two: Theocracy !

    The easiest way to make the US into a Christian theocracy is to just re-write American history so that Americans grow up believing that the founders intended the US to be a Christian theocracy.

    The problem with ignoring this fake history is that it then gets enshrined as “legitimate” and if House Resolution 888 gets passed, a whole mess of the worst history lies of the American Christian right will get entered into the Congressional Record and then people who push the “Christian nation” alternate version of American history can point to the Congressional Record and say “see ? it’s in the Congressional Record ! It must be true !” That’s how PR and propaganda work.

    H. Res 888 is designed to make the history lies, cooked up by historical revisionists of the Christian right, more respectable. And, to the extent Congress members vote for it they become caught up in a web of complicity – the overwriting of American history.

    The church today has fallen prey to the heresy of democracy.

    — R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Nutley, NJ: Craig Press, 1973), p. 747.

    The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church’s public marks of the covenant–baptism and holy communion–must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel.

    Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), p. 87.



    Wes…I don’t like the way Mr. Romney has flip-flopped on quite a few things to satisfy different constituents over time…simple enough.

    Mr. Huckabee? He can tell us all he wants that his religion will have nothing to do with his being president, but, let’s face it, he is more than just a lay person out there. He’s a Baptist minister…and I think there’s a side to him that he’s not quite being honest about. I think he would have a difficult time keeping the gov’t part and the religious part separate. I have no problem with him or anyone labelling themselves Christian. I do have a problem with my country’s leaders telling me that I have to believe that way, too…having it influence what would affect me on a daily basis…..and it’s just my opinion that ultimately he would do that.

    On a political level, I’m not sure that either has the experience of dealing with foreign powers to be sufficient to deal with the things that we’re involved in right now in the world.

    Ken…thanks for the very interesting reading…



    Kayleigh, (I really like that name by the way) what date does science give about the age of the Earth today anyways? I think it just got bumped up last month to almost 1 billion. It seems that both have no clue how old the earth is.

    Good stuff Ken, but as always I have to take this with a grain of salt, considering daily kos does have it’s own biases about how they think things should be too. But I would agree, what does our military have to do with evangelism?

    Also the other article by the kos points out particulars about this very weird house resolution, and says, “It’s a lie.” Ok, show how this is a lie. In all fairness for me to find something you have written and then write in response, “It’s a lie.” would not be just. If it’s true let’s see it. Just because they say it doesn’t make it true, and that goes the same with those pushing for the bill. It still doesn’t seem like theocracy, which I would again assert has nothing to do with the New Testament or Jesus in any way.

    As far as Rushdooney’s quote, and I have no idea who he is, what was the context for that statement?

    Gary North’s comments are not at all correct biblically and is quite laughable.

    It’s interesting that what I was taught about those that were coming to America to settle, were those that were being oppressed by religion in their countries. They wanted to worship freely.

    Jan, would it be fair to say that every canidate, despite what they say, will make decisions based of their own presuppositions and beliefs that will affect us daily?

    In the end I am still undecided, just like last time.

    Good times neighbors!



    Wes…absolutely…there is always the chance that a belief/feeling will influence their decisions. This particular belief/feeling…the separation of church and state…is kind of important.

    Even we will use our personal feelings/beliefs to make this momentous decision.

    “It’s interesting that what I was taught about those that were coming to America to settle, were those that were being oppressed by religion in their countries. They wanted to worship freely.” Absolutely on that one, too, Wes…freedom from religious persecution….I suppose that’s why I have a difficult time with people who want to cram their religion down my throat. I even had the woman who stood up for me at my wedding tell me that if I didn’t believe as she did (her version of being “born again”) that I was going straight to hell. She sat in my living room with a straight face and told me that…I showed her the door, and never invited her back again.

    So… a little insight into where I’m coming from, I suppose…

    We just need to read, read, read some more…and make the best decision that’s right for us based on our beliefs….

    Wes, you almost sound like you’re mellowing a bit :)



    It’s late and I’m tired so the fire burns lower. =)

    I hope that woman did not say it that way to you. I would have told you that Jesus said He was the only way to God. So anyone who makes that kind of statement, did the miraculous things He did, and spoke about a place of eternal torement as well as a place of eternal life, I think is worth seeing if He is right or wrong. Because if He is wrong then you might not have anything to worry about so go do whatever you want, but if He is right then we should see what He has to say about how to get to God and have eternal life.

    This would be fair to ask right?

    I can tell you what Jesus said and the claims He made and the things He has done and what He says are the consequences of what He says, good and bad, and love you to death no matter what, but if God is drawing you to Jesus, then investigate it and see if it’s true, for yourself, not what the crazy preacher man on TBN says, or on the WSB ;p,but what the Bible says. That seems fair and it does become your free will choice.

    Cheers Jan!



    Wes…I grew up surrounded by the church, which was a half block away from my home. I sang in the choir, I helped the organist, I played piano in Sunday School, I taught Sunday School. I Had Youth group on Thursday nights, choir practice on Friday nights, dance at the church on Sat. night (hey we were a bit progressive – lol). I attended 2 service on Sunday mornings. All of my friends attended the same church as I did. We attended retreats on a regular basis…church camp in the summer for 2 weeks as teenagers paid for by the church. Religion , as far as all of that was concerned, was first and foremost in my life. I developed what I believe, or don’t believe, through that. I don’t want anyone assuming that I need to be talked to about beliefs/Jesus/God etc.etc….just as I would NEVER assume to talk to you because I feel that you might need the guidance in the right direction. I could quote bible around this woman who sat in my living room, and, yes, she said it just like that. One cannot tell from one’s outward appearance what is in one’s heart…one should never assume that another needs to be “enlightened”…it may already be in their being…and be very private to them only.

    I’ve never felt the need to spout what I believe to the world…they have their own beliefs…



    Wes,I wish it were my real name. I rarely post under my real name (had death threats on another board–probably bogus but still upsetting.)

    The last number I remember hearing about the earth is 4.6 billion. I think it has been increased since, but don’t remember exactly. It’s sure a far cry from 6,000 years.

    It’s reasonable to hold science and faith separately and they really can co-exist. You can respect the process of science (hypothesis testing, weight of evidence, etc) and still have faith that resonates with you and helps you. My fear is that Huckabee and people like him don’t maintain this distinction.

    I have had such a cruddy week that I probably will go to church on Sunday (UU or unity, most likely.) Never thought I’d say it, but sometimes it helps.



    This thread is growing cold, but i would like to remark that beliefs are just that… personal beliefs. Any of us can believe anything we want, whether that belief is in sync with current science or not. However, we are talking about who will sit in the President’s seat and we have just had 8 years of a president who crafted American policy based on nothing more than his personal beliefs. Look where that got us. I care more what my next president will base their policy decisions upon than their personal belief system. Jimmy Carter is both Christian and baptist and i would vote for him again tomorrow because he based his decisions more on science and fact than his religious beliefs.

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