AZ Giffords shot, how do we cool the rhetoric?

[redblack]

cait: yes, i’m saying that the republican party’s silence regarding domestic terrorists in its ranks equals consent. i know that most republicans are good people. but when they don’t stop this rhetoric among their own political candidates – and then vote for them! – they appear complicit.

i freely condemn the extreme left-wing anarchists in the democratic party’s ranks. they, too, should be called out and jailed as arsonists and criminals. (until they turn their anger toward the government and/or start murdering people, that is, at which point they become terrorists.)

btw, MLK didn’t back down from the fight against tyranny. he stood up in defiance of intimidation and shouted down his detractors – in a very eloquent, just, and thoughtful way. i find it interesting that you used him as an example.

likewise, civil-minded republicans had better start condemning this kind of rhetoric, and fast. if you disagree with assassinating your political opponents, forget gagging yourself. speak up and call them out of civil society as the creeps that they are.

regarding the gun laws, the NRA pays republicans a lot of money to loosen those laws. if you’re advocating for an end to it, i’m guessing that you won’t find yourself welcome among republicans for very long.

but it does occur to me that we can find common ground here. we should unite – from left to right – and get tighter gun laws. let’s ignore the gun nuts shedding crocodile tears over their manufactured denial of self-defense under the second amendment if they can’t get their hands on 30-round clips for a glock.

let’s unite around getting publicly-funded and staffed mental health facilities back and get some of these wackos off of the streets, out of our schools, and out of the military.

and let’s agree that we need to pay taxes to do that for ourselves.

but let’s not sit silently, hoping the problem will go away if we simply stop condemning the gun nuts in public. because that merely validates the violence.

Share This

[Cait]

Yes – but did he also call his neighbors terrorists? That’s the point I’m making. He stood up against ISSUES, not people. He didn’t spend time calling all white people ignorant, he staged specific and well-planned peaceful protests. That’s the maturity I’m talking about here. I don’t get what’s hard to understand about that… call me naive but I don’t. Social change is a game of chess, it’s not checkers.

And am I supposed to be surprised that Palin and the other politicians guilty of violent rhetoric aren’t taking responsibility? I’m tolerant, not stupid, JoB. She’s ONE of the people that I’m sorry are giving republicans a bad name. And I do hold her responsible for being careless with her words, insensitive and undereducated – not for pulling the trigger. If you want to make that leap, fine, but it’s rough terrain you’re negotiating there.

You’re also not accounting for all the republicans (and democrats) who have come out saying that this is a wake up call for them. But then again in this discussion of black and white only I’m not surprised either.

Share This

[JoB]

Cait…

i am not sure where you found the comment in this topic that labeled our neighbors terrorists?

i am pretty sure i didn’t say that..

nor do i remember reading anyone else saying that.

what i have said and what i have understood others to say is that the hate rhetoric has become so pervasive that it is not even recognized as the hate speech it is by the people who listen to it…

they are buying the story that this is “normal” political discourse… that you can find equal comments from democratic candidates/pundits.

it’s not true.. but they are buying it anyway.

time and again we have seen this kind of hate speech….

let’s call it what it really is…

turn into violence against individuals.

and still some people don’t think there is a connection?

when you condone the speech that creates the violence

you condone the violence.

that doesn’t make you a terrorist.

but i don’t think it’s such a big leap to say that condoning hate speech makes you complicit in the violence that follows.

this is one of those situation where personal responsibility becomes more than campaign rhetoric.

btw..

Sarah Palin was the republican party’s choice for a Vice-Presidential candidate in the last election. You can’t get more mainstream than that.

Until her remarks following this shooting.. she was considered one of the top two Republican presidential contenders for 2012…

Sarah isn’t some rogue element giving the republican party a bad name

right now she is the one of the public faces of the republican party…

so much so that Pawlenty whose own hate rhetoric equals hers is gunning for her.

And she’s not alone.

Like it or not..

she is emblematic of the current republican party.

therein lies the root of the problem.

Share This

[redblack]

well, cait, how do you separate the issue of racism from racist people? how do you separate the issue of anti-democratically-elected-government rhetoric from those who spew it?

i’ll tell you this: the crackers that MLK was calling out as perpetrators of tyranny against blacks evidently felt that he was talking about individual people and their abhorrent behavior, because a person shot him. the issue didn’t shoot him.

and i’m not calling all republicans terrorists. i’m calling those people who use the threat of a bullet terrorists. if one of them happens to be my neighbor, then i’m going to call him an idiot, too. (but only from behind a concrete wall.)

what i am saying is that not culling them from your ranks – and even embracing them to win elections – is cynical and irresponsible. silence equals consent, and it eventually leads to events like saturday’s in tucson.

Share This

[JoB]

redblack

well said

Share This

[charlabob]

The best defense is a good offense. I know until “my side” learns that the best defense isn’t a better, more obsequious, defense, we’re doomed. Meantime, Palin called the

“attacks” on her “blood libel.” Look it up. http://www.bing.com/news/search?q=Blood+Libel&qpvt=Blood+Libel&FORM=EWRE

Then tell me where the equivalence is. And, yeah, Representative Gifford is Jewish. Quelle coincidence??? These people are dangerous and they know exactly what they’re doing.

Share This

[Cait]

Well if you go back and look at every time you used the word “republicans” instead of using actual examples of actual people and their actual words you are lumping an entire people into one category. And when you’re talking about murder it’s prudent and polite to be careful.

Calling people idiots from behind a concrete wall could be the tagline for this entire post as far as I’m concerned.

Share This

[JoB]

Cait..

mainstream republicans:

the new chairman of the homeland security committee

“American Muslims aren’t Americans”

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/01/11/king-muslims-american/

this one fell in my lap this morning

but if i wanted to go hunting for mainstream American hate speech the list is endless

i’m not going to do that…

i’m going to go find something interesting to do

like feed my dogs lunch…

but this is an example of why we are having this conversation…

and why the term Republican might be germane.

Share This

[JanS]

CB..my friend, Todd, said this about Sarah Palin and “blood libel” this morning…”Wow! She’s even more stupid than we thought(nah,not really, we already knew)!”

And someone, anyone, wants her to be the next Prez? We are doomed..

Share This

[redblack]

yeah, cait. i’m saying republicans are responsible for fomenting terrorists among their ranks by not calling them out. as the de facto leader of the modern republican party, sarah palin’s little youtube speech was more gasoline on the fire.

while you, cait, may think she’s over the top, all i hear from conservative punditocracy is that she’s spot on in her defense of inflammatory rhetoric, all the while hiding behind the first amendment.

republicans are also (mostly) responsible for caving to monetary and political pressure from the NRA to loosen gun laws.

just like they’re responsible for defunding public mental health facilities and decrying the use of government resources to keep these folks off of the streets.

these are republican policies, and republicans own them. don’t like the truth? then change the republican party.

and yeah, i talk big in the forums, but if my neighbor is a gun nut, i’d rather be behind the concrete wall.

Share This

[JoB]

Cait…

“Calling people idiots from behind a concrete wall could be the tagline for this entire post as far as I’m concerned. “

low blow..

and not accurate.

i have had hate filed emails fill my inbox as a result of posts i have made on this forum

i have had more than one smear campaign waged among what i thought were friends after posting on this forum..

i have received hate filled letters at my home address after posting on this forum

i became the but of fun on another forum as a result of posting here

i was even turned into the authorities once as a consequence of posting here… luckily that one was solved with a phone call. it could have been worse.

i know someone whose livelihood was threatened

and another whose conversation with animal control was not as positive as mine.

there is no concrete wall here.

sometimes that’s the good news since i have also made good friends here.

Share This

[Cait]

JoB – if it’s important enough to be mad about it’s important enough to get specific about every time. Broad generalizations don’t make points and they breed even more unnecessary judgement.

Jan – I couldn’t agree more. SHE is terrible… like I said this morning I won’t degrade my opinion of humankind to encompass the kind of trash I think her to be.

Luckily for us though, she ain’t all republicans.

I’ve heard that the party wants to knock her out of the running for president because she’ll win the primary but definitely not the general. That would be the only saving grace… but I don’t think I can take much more of her talking. I just can’t. Or I get all head-explode-y!

Share This

[redblack]

Share This

[JoB]

Cait…

here’s the trouble

if you look back in this thread you will find there have been plenty of specifics listed.

i listed a few myself.

but you have dismissed them out of hand..

labeling this whole conversation as nothing more than partisan bickering.

well, it seems the sheriff of Pima county isn’t the only elected official worried about the tenor of the hate rhetoric there…

republicans are resigning office over hate mail directed at them.

see link above…

The elephant in the room exists and it is hate speech.

You admit you hate Sarah; “listening to her makes your head explode”…

yet you refuse to see that she is the face

the republican party used to swing their takeover of the house…

the face that brought us Mr King “American Muslims aren’t Americans” as chairman of the homeland committee…

see link above

when you said… “I’ve heard that the party wants to knock her out of the running for president because she’ll win the primary but definitely not the general.” you not only confirmed Sarah Palin’s mainstream position in the Republican party but the reason for her inclusion.

if they thought she could win…

she would get the nomination.

to paraphrase Smitty in another thread …

yeah, i think she’s an idiot

but i don’t care if she is

if that is what it takes to win…

the fact that someone he thinks is an idiot would then be the President of the United States doesn’t matter as long as she is a Republican president :(

Winning despite the consequences….

has consequences.

in this case..

the consequences have been an explosion of hate speech leading directly to provable threats of violence…

and most likely to actual violence last saturday.

You don’t have to be a member of the tea party

or a member of the republican party

to take hate speech to heart.

heck.. we have independents right here on the forum who do so nearly every day.

Share This

[dhg]

I turned on the local Fox News at 10pm last night and they closed with a local commentator (didn’t get the name) who said that we all know the AZ shooter was a liberal because he was reading Mein Kampf. ……………

WTF

Is this what the extreme right wing is now telling themselves? That the left is following Hitler?

This rhtetoric is very very dangerous.

Share This

[Cait]

We’re still not seeing eye to eye here. I’m fully willing to admit that she stands for all that is wrong with rhetoric. That’s not my issue. Call a person out for their actions, absolutely. But broad generalizations in this case are disrespectful. Like this one…

“yet you refuse to see that she is the face

the republican party used to swing their takeover of the house…”

First of all I don’t think this is true, and second of all you’re again implying that the entire republican party is behind Sarah Palin. They are not.

Share This

[redblack]

without palin and her tea party support, republicans would not have won enough districts to control the house.

sensible, well-reasoned republicans did not do the party any good in the mid-terms, and there are too few of you to carry a majority without the help of the – shall we say – noisy fringe elements.

republicans are in a conundrum. you might not like palin, but without her supporters, you can’t run a moderate condidate who can beat obama in 2012. and the tea party wants the blood of anyone who compromises with democrats. the new speaker said as much in his interview with leslie stahl.

generalization? maybe. tell me where i’m wrong. the way i see it, though, the republican party is split, and if they want to win future elections, they have to distance themselves from the crazy.

Share This

[Cait]

redblack – how do you suggest they do that? The Tea Party isn’t going anywhere either way. They can condemn them all they want (and many republicans both politicians and citizens do) but what good does it do when you can’t shake them? We’re just going to fault them for having gum on their shoe?

Could they do more? Yes. Would it do any good election wise? Probably not.

Share This

[JoB]

Cait…

you show me where the Republican party is actually trying to shake the Tea Party in general and the politicians who fuel their anger like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bauckman and ….

You think they aren’t the face of the republican party?

Look again.

they produced republican seats that gave them control of congress.

they are setting the current legislative agenda for the party…

the tail is wagging this dog.

Share This

[Cait]

I’m backing out of this one… I’ve made my point.

Share This

[JoB]

Cait…

what point?

the tail is busily wagging the dog today

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/right-wing%E2%80%99s-dupnik-pile-continues

because this is how they sway the hearts and minds of people…

Share This

[Jiggers]

Ok..I just finished watching Obama’s Eulogy on TV. Classless if you ask me.

Share This

[jamminj]

Jiggers, most would have guessed your opinion before the memorial even started. I’m sure Limbaugh, Palin, Beck didn’t care for it either, want to bet on it??

Share This

[HMC Rich]

Post 100: I can’t read minds Redblack. You called me Stupid. My My. I guess I would rather be Stupid than Smart and foolish.

Would not some of your statements be considered Hate Speech these days? HATING Reagan, both Bushes, Republicans and the Chinese. Well congratulations, you just ticked off about 1 Billion people. My hat’s off to you. Good Job. Did Major League Baseball add another base in the left field fringe? Ground Control to Redblack, are you receiving? There is no pain, you are receding.

Now, I just did that to show you that calling someone something they are not is wrong. We can disagree. But Sheriff Dupnik (I bet a few have said Dopenik) said something without facts. Let’s not repeat the same mistake ourselves.

FACT: DHG started this thread. The assessment of blame was wrong. Everyday more information comes out showing Loughner was not a right wing ideologue, nor influenced by FNC etc.

FACT: The Sheriff, Dupnik, shot his mouth off without any evidence. Open Mouth, Insert Foot.

FACT: Many in the mainstream media ran with the Sheriff’s statement to “legitimize” blaming Rush, Hannity, FOX NEWS Channel, and the TEA Party, without any evidence. Ahh Journalism. Walter, even though privately you were pretty liberal, we sure could use some newsmen (news people) like you today who knew how to report the news. Mr. Cronkite, you were right to not trust Dan Rather. Bravo.

FACT: You are losing the argument so you decide to pick on Sarah Palin. She scares the Hell out of you doesn’t she? You can refudiate everything she says but there is just one problem. She, like you, has the right to an opinion. Now after two years of Democratic Rule which is fairly stagnant, she doesn’t look so bad to some. But that is their choice. You make your own.

Intelligence is not the issue here. The Right has learned to fight back when the left so obviously goes off the deep end.

The issue is two fold. 1. In Tuscon people were murdered and injured by a lone 22 year gunman. It is a tragedy. 2. Instead of blaming the individual, quite a few on the left decided to blame the right for something they were not part of.

Now, I have read posts by people on both sides of the political spectrum that scare me. Lunatics usually attack alone. They are the most difficult to stop. But government and their officials have to be correct and not biased in situations like this. Example: WACO, Clinton and Reno send in FBI and a tank into Koresh Compound. Too many people dead. Then, McVeigh blows up building in Oklahoma City. Clinton blames conservative radio. McVeigh did it to avenge WACO mistake. Reagan fighting Communism in Afghanistan helped arm the Taliban and Usama Bin Laden. Sheriffs and Presidents have to be careful what they say and do.

I would rather the “extremists” on both sides be posting on-line than outside exercising violence against the majority of law abiding citizens.

Share This

[redblack]

fact: making threats against members of congress is a crime. killing members of congress is terrorism.

you guys just can’t admit that the NRA gun nuts are in your midst and showing up as “tea party patriots.” you’re totally ignoring the fact that some of them are advocating terrorism. and you’re totally ignoring the fact that that kind of political vitriol is what leads to incidents like the one in tucson.

sarah palin? scare me? only if she’s elected. (or if i’m dressed in a wolf suit and she’s flying low in a helicopter.) but she’s too stupid to make any kind of informed decision, which is why she’s unelectable.

but please, by all means, vote for her.

Share This

[Author]

Posts