Home › Forums › Open Discussion › American Middle Class – How we doin??
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June 28, 2013 at 4:45 pm #608036
wakefloodParticipantHey hey kids,
More good news about how that trickle down, supply sidey stuff is working for Americans. It’s the economic scam that just keeps onnnnn givin’!
A nice simple graph to illustrate. We’re #1…ok #27 but who’s counting?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/les-leopold/big-lie-america-doesnt-ha_b_3516185.html
June 28, 2013 at 4:49 pm #792486
JiggersMemberI blame Obummer now..
June 28, 2013 at 4:58 pm #792487
wakefloodParticipantBlame whoever you want, Jiggs, how about WE FRICKING CHANGE IT?!?!
June 28, 2013 at 5:05 pm #792488
JiggersMemberNo one cares… everybody’s busy playing games on their smartphones…:)
June 28, 2013 at 6:56 pm #792489
JanSParticipantobviously, jiggers, someone cares. They brought it up. Dismissing it isn’t going to solve anything. Complacency is a problem, for sure. To wit, what you responded with :(
June 29, 2013 at 6:06 pm #792490
WFMemberthe middle class is getting screwed. a prime example is college tuition that has skyrocketed in the past 6 years in particular. it is the middle class that is squeezed hard by this.
the government that use to provide services to the middle class (parks, education, infrastructure maintenance) has re-directed these limited resources to other items that do not benefit the middle class.
look at the city of seattle; street maintenance is not done at a level needed to keep up, signals loops are broken et al; but the city seems to be able to find money for items that are of little benefit to the middle class.
June 29, 2013 at 7:46 pm #792491
CandrewB1ParticipantHate to say it WF, and I say this as a state worker, the PERS1 and LOEFF1 pension and medical benefits are size-ably responsible for much of the budget these days. Not offering solutions, just saying you would be very surprised to see what that is costing society.
June 29, 2013 at 7:52 pm #792492
WFMembercandrewb1 i agree it is costly
July 1, 2013 at 4:21 pm #792493
WFMemberwakeflood the middle class is not doing well at all
July 1, 2013 at 5:02 pm #792494
wakefloodParticipanthey Candrew, I don’t disagree that there’s a chunk of change tied up in what you describe.
However, there’s causes and symptoms. Medical insurance costs are impacting all of society, not just gov’t. And pensions are earned and hundreds of Billions, possibly Trillions of dollars have been sucked out of the middle class who used to have pensions even in the private sector that are now volatile and low-returning 401k’s.
That money didn’t just go away, it went to a very, very few folks. I don’t begrudge public workers earning a reasonable wage with decent benefits and fighting like hell to keep them. The oligarchy that owns this country WANTS us to look at our fellow middle and lower economic class citizens as the enemy. They’re laughing when we pick over the crumbs. It takes our eyes off of the real criminals in this scenario.
We’ve been plundered. But it can change. It takes will and cooperation from both sides of the political spectrum. Seems one side doesn’t mind that they’re being financially scammed tho…
July 1, 2013 at 5:17 pm #792495
WFMemberyes the middle class has been screwed, the State finds and spends money on health care for illegal immigrant children yet can’t find money to keep Parks open.
July 1, 2013 at 5:55 pm #792496
skeeterParticipantMedian wealth is $38,000. I agree that is low.
Instead of blaming Wall Street and tax policy, let’s put the “blame” where it belongs. A lot of Americans do not put a priority on saving money.
July 1, 2013 at 6:02 pm #792497
WFMemberskeeter – i agree that too many americans fail to save.
wakeflood – the plunder has been because the government failed to maintain education, parks, maintenance spending and spent the money on other items that do not benefit the middle class.
July 1, 2013 at 6:04 pm #792498
wakefloodParticipantSkeeter, you’re 96% exactly wrong.
You can never show data that supports your hosed up logic.
Even when the “research” is bought and paid for that supports your bass-ackward view of economics (paid for by the very folks who stole the $ in the first place), it gets peer reviewed, discredited, and thrown in the trash as hokum. (AEI, Heritage Foundation, the usual suspects.)
Stop spouting illogical and unsupported crap and I’ll start paying attention. And by that I mean, show me some unbiased data that says that Financial Shenanigans AND Tax Policy DIDN’T gut the middle class and we can start the discussion.
I won’t hold my breath because you won’t find it.
July 1, 2013 at 6:10 pm #792499
wakefloodParticipantWF: Wha??? Please describe the logical path that you used to reach your conclusion that spending money that was sucked OUT OF THE REVENUE STREAM should have been used to do good stuff with???
If it wasn’t there, it couldn’t be spent on that nice stuff. You seem to think that Tim Eyeman and all the other revenue reduction that his ilk spawned had no impact on things like education and infrastructure, and parks and housing, and transportation, etc. etc. Not to mention giving tax breaks to corporations who blackmail us to get factories and stores built.
As Warren Buffet has said numerous times, “I’ve never made an investment decision based on the tax implications”.
Everyone wants what THEY think gov’t should spend money on and they don’t want to pay for it OR what anyone else thinks is a priority.
July 1, 2013 at 6:16 pm #792500
WFMemberi identified that the State spends money on health care for illegal immigrant children. this spending could have been more appropriately spent keeping parks open, for example, that better serves the middle class.
July 1, 2013 at 6:33 pm #792501
skeeterParticipantIt’s not a question of data or statistics. I have no proof. I have no data. All I have are my observations.
The chart shows that the median American has a net worth of $38,000.
I don’t blame Wall Street. I don’t blame tax policy. I don’t blame Republicans or Democrats.
Many Americans do not prioritize savings. That’s it. That’s how I see it.
Every time I go to a mall I see people drinking $4 coffee drinks. I see everyone has an iPhone – about $100 per month. That is a priority for them. Saving is not.
Wakeflood, please don’t get upset. We’re just chatting. I just don’t have the time and interest to look up data. I’m simply sharing my personal thoughts and observations. You can disregard me if you want – no hard feelings.
I enjoy reading your posts. You are smart and do your research. I don’t do my research, so the conclusions I come to could be very incorrect.
July 1, 2013 at 6:37 pm #792502
wakefloodParticipantThat’s certainly a few bucks that can be argued as to the economic impacts of that vs. park upkeep. (Which, btw is a false choice scenario since it isn’t necessarily one OR the other, but let’s play it out that way just for kicks.)
So let’s do a little pro and con of this spending scenario.
The decision to pay for some undocumented health care is a damned if you do, and don’t situation. This state has a huge economic bet placed on agriculture. Those crops have to be harvested (witness a shortage of pickers several seasons recently on the east side.)
No matter how you slice it, those workers are largely undocumented and you simply DON’T get enough local resident folks available to do it. So, if your goal is to entice workers to pick your produce HERE as compared to California, etc., you need to throw them a bone. In this case, it’s health care for their kids. Now, don’t confuse paying for insurance for those kids with the cost THAT WOULD BE INCURRED ANYWAY at emergency room rates when those children need some care. Even maybe a vaccinations they can’t afford to minimize potential epidemics of whooping cough or other…
And those emergency room costs end up being born by taxpayers ANYWAY.
So, if you have those folks here in some number anyway, and you’d like MORE of them to help you maintain your position as an agri-powerhouse, you do some things that might seem a little weird until you look deeper.
Does doing that mean you don’t spend money on parks? Only if you don’t grow the revenue pie instead of shrinking it. Billions of $ in tax revenue have disappeared with reductions in home values, general sales taxes with the recession, and anti-tax initiatives,etc. Did you realize that a long-standing gas tax is sunsetting? One that we voted on ourselves? Think that would get voted in again in this climate? Maybe, but that’s exactly the kind of thing that is out of favor now.
No free lunch. Or should I say, parks?
July 1, 2013 at 6:39 pm #792503
skeeterParticipantBTW – whatever economic policy exists – trickle down or whatever you want to call it. It has worked very well for my middle-class family living in West Seattle. Maybe I’m the only one in the country it has worked well for. I admit that I have no data. But it has worked very well for my family. At least so far.
July 1, 2013 at 6:45 pm #792504
wakefloodParticipantAnd trust me, I’m not saying this country is good at saving. But we get LOTS of help from every angle enticing us to be consuming to keep the engine running.
I consider myself an average saver. I’ve been putting away a chunk into 401k’s and others since i started real jobs decades ago. I’ve also seen big chunks of that wiped out twice by recessions and stock market shenanigans. No matter what you think, we are sheep to be sheared by the elite insiders. If you don’t believe that, you’re naive.
I also have invested in assets I think are likely to at least hold their value if not appreciate a little over time.
And I’m STILL a long way from feeling secure in my retirement which isn’t too far on the horizon.
And the whole time I’ve been trying to do the right thing, I’ve had the entire society telling me that I should be spending more on stuff. It’s really, really hard to be consistently frugal in this world. Hell, it’s hard to not just be stupid!
July 1, 2013 at 7:13 pm #792505
WFMemberwakeflood i agree consumerism is a big problem. it is not hard to be frugal if you have the correct mind set. unfortunately too many people are extremely poor savers in this country
July 1, 2013 at 7:29 pm #792506
skeeterParticipantWell if you’ve been putting away a “chunk” into 401ks for decades, you’re not an “average saver.” You are way above average. Well done.
A basic guideline that hasn’t changed for some time is this: if you (a) pay into social security and (b) consistently save 20% of your salary/earnings through your working years, you will be able to retire and still spend between 70% and 80% of your pre-retirement income until you die.
Now the consumerism is an interesting problem. I don’t know what it will take to convince people of the importance of saving. The Washington Society of CPAs has a fantastic outreach program for teaching financial literacy.
http://www.wscpa.org/Content/FinLit.aspx
One of my goals is to become involved in this program, but I do not have the available time at this point in my life.
I agree with WF – with the correct mindset, being frugal is not difficult at all. It comes naturally to some folks. But for many it is very difficult. For some, foregoing current consumption is easy. For other, very very hard.
July 1, 2013 at 7:34 pm #792507
wakefloodParticipantI might suggest that it’s not hard to be frugal IF you’re already of that mindset. Which, I might suggest (with only anecdotal observation, ala Skeets), isn’t very prevalent.
This society (as well as most industrialized ones), spends untold billions to offset any of those natural frugal tendencies and discourage the acceptance of that as a learned habit. (One of our recent Presidents even lauded consumerism as the solution to 9/11!)
If even a fraction of that desired frugality sunk in, the tens of billions spent yearly on advertising to engender a false sense of frugality (the more you buy, the more you save!) certainly offsets it manifold. And if it didn’t work, they wouldn’t spend that $ to entice us.
And let’s not forget the downside of low interest rates and high user fees for financial services. Huge disincentive to saving. (I don’t even want to think about how much money went to mgmnt “fees” in my investment portfolios. Makes me nauseous.
All of which is to say, it’s an uphill battle. :)
July 1, 2013 at 7:45 pm #792508
skeeterParticipantOne thing about investing that bothers me, and I suspect Wakeflood will even agree with me, is corporations sometimes waste shareholder/investor money. I’m a shareholder in Coca-Cola. It seems like a well run company. When I read they pre-ordered a Gulfstream G650, I sent an email to investor relations telling them it was a silly waste of money. This jet costs double the price just so it can fly 6% faster. Nothing but bragging rights for executives at the expense of investors.
July 1, 2013 at 8:09 pm #792509
wakefloodParticipantNailed it Skeets. I’ve seen all sorts of waste in public companies, the kind you describe is the most egregious and sometimes least visible. I’ve worked at and for a number of large publicly owned companies and I’ve lost count of the silly $’s spent on pet projects that no one expected to get returns from.
And then there’s one of the all-time money wasters – the constant centralizing, followed in a couple of years by decentralizing the very same processes just because a new guy/gal wants to make a mark. It’s the equivalent of spinning the steering wheel in opposite directions every few minutes at full speed when the path is dead ahead.
And I’m not even going to touch on executive compensation. That’s just plain craaaazy.
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