Home › Forums › Open Discussion › American Middle Class – How we doin??
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July 3, 2013 at 8:23 pm #792535
JanSParticipantyep, we want it all paid for, but let the Tim Eyman’s of the world call the shots re: taxes. Collectively, as a country , we don’t want to pay for it, like somehow magically, the money will just be there.
July 4, 2013 at 5:49 pm #792536
WFMemberthe current budget is ~$66.5 billion and in the 2003-2005 biennium it was ~44.8 billion; thus the budget has increased by almost 50 percent.
social service spending in washington consumes 43% of the budget (that is too much and does not serve the middle class) and education spending is about 44% of the budget (that should be higher to better serve the middle class).
July 4, 2013 at 6:36 pm #792537
JanSParticipantand what is the increase in costs today as opposed to 2003-2005? Costs don’t remain static.
July 4, 2013 at 6:54 pm #792538
WFMemberthe CPI (consumer price index) has risen 27% since 2003
and Washington population was 6.104 M in 2003 and is 6.897 in 2012; thus ~14%
thus factoring inflation and population state spending would have increased by about 45% not the 50% that has occurred..
July 4, 2013 at 9:33 pm #792539
JanSParticipantby about 45%…well, that leaves room for another 5%…just saying. Prices go up, more money (budget) is needed. Or you cut something out. Lately all that’s been cut is stuff from those who can’t afford to have them cut. Defense hasn’t been touched, and, frankly, there is so much waste and fraud there, and has been for years, that your mind would be boggled. And then there’s GE (and companies like it), who has unbelievable profits, but gets millions back at tax time? Inequities abound…how to fix it? Vote, vote, vote…replace those that are not working, that are making you unhappy.
July 4, 2013 at 10:43 pm #792540
WFMembertax revenues have exceeded, by 5%, the increase in the CPI times the increase in State population.
i agree there is a lot of fraud and defense spending needs refinement.
July 9, 2013 at 9:15 pm #792541
elikapekaParticipantCharlie Rose’s show today is an interview with Bill Moyers about this very subject. Watch it if you can.
July 10, 2013 at 3:09 pm #792542
WFMemberan example of the washington state legislature failure to protect the middle class is that they failed to maintain funding for higher education. tuition at the UW went up 82% between the 2008-2009 and 2012-2013 academic years.
as identified in an earlier post the CPI went up 27% since 2003. presuming half since 2008-2009 (a conservative assumption since inflation has been tamed recently) the $6,802 tuition in 2008-2009 would have risen to $7,720 in 2012-2013 not $12,383 it did. this correlates to $4,663 more per year (almost $400/month).
the washington legislature was controlled by one party that failed to protect a very critical item that serves the middle class; aka education.
overall state revenue increased faster than population and CPI in the same time period. the one party legislature essentially placed a huge tax increase on the middle class with kids in college.
someone please explain how this benefited the middle class?
July 10, 2013 at 3:28 pm #792543
wakefloodParticipantWF, you make it sound like WA is the only state where tuition exploded over the last decade or two. It’s been going up EVERYWHERE regardless of who’s controlling the legislature in any given state.
Here’s an article that attempts to explain it. And btw, there’s plenty of blame to go around.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-john-ebersole/college-tuition-rise-costs_b_1635834.html
PS – As a general statement, costs have been outpacing CPI for decades. When I started college in ’79/’80 it was $206/qtr. for a slate of 15 credits. By the time I was finished it had already doubled…
July 10, 2013 at 4:18 pm #792544
WFMemberyes wakefield college tuition has risen in every state; but it rose faster in washington.
the washington legislature found money to fund health care for illegal immigrants; yet could not find money to better fund education for legal middle class citizens?
July 10, 2013 at 4:33 pm #792545
wakefloodParticipant…annnnd we’re back to square one.
As I’ve stated several times already, when faced with a series of Hobson’s choices – as all states have over the last years – you end up with lose/lose scenarios all over the place.
The state could have tried to raise additional revenue through taxes to help education and not have to pull it from other areas but they chose not to because short-sighted voters want something for nothing.
But it sounds like you’re committed to believing that some minimal health care for the undocumented (who actually make it possible for farmers to SELL their produce and make a profit from it) is the reason tuition costs are higher.
I guess we agree to disagree on this one.
July 10, 2013 at 4:42 pm #792546
WFMemberno wakefield i simply identified this as one item that could have been cut.
state revenue increased faster than the CPI and population over the past 10 years; thus revenue in itself is not the issue. it is how the revenue is spent.
the issue is that the legislature essentially raised taxes (tuition) on the middle class that was blatantly unjust and was a significant adverse impact to the middle class.
July 10, 2013 at 5:04 pm #792547
wakefloodParticipantFair enough. Two points.
One is that when talking about changes over time of several hundreds of percent increases in every state, to be focused on this state’s increases of a few more percentage points seems odd.
Two, as I mentioned before, using CPI as a the baseline for cost growth as it pertains to the budget specifically, isn’t necessarily an appropriate metric. CPI has gotten less and less connected to real costs incurred by real people. The last few decades modifications to the calculation primarily being to artificially reduce the growth of benefit costs tied to it.
July 10, 2013 at 7:12 pm #792548
WFMemberfrom data online washington spends about 43% of its budget on social/health services whereas oregon spends 27% of its budget on these services.
washington budget ~$66.5B; thus if washington spending on social/health services was similar to oregon about $10.6B would be available to improve education, reduce college tuition and reopen parks et al that are services that help the middle class.
July 10, 2013 at 7:41 pm #792549
JanSParticipantwhat are the variables? population numbers, etc. Things may seem out of whack, and really aren’t . Our two states are not the same….
July 10, 2013 at 8:06 pm #792550
wakefloodParticipantAgreed. WF, can you confirm if those two data points were constituted using the same metrics? i.e. what elements comprised the “social/health services” category and are those things actually providing the same services per capita?
July 11, 2013 at 12:33 am #792551
WFMemberi obtained each states budget data available on line.
OREGON:
http://www.leg.state.or.us/comm/lfo/2009-11_budget/2009-11_Budget_Highlights_Update.pdf
Oregon spends almost 52% of its budget on education and about 25% on social services
http://www.oregon.gov/COO/Ten/docs/2013_15_Budget.pdf
50% on education and 21% social services
WASHINGTON:
http://fiscal.wa.gov/SpendbyBien.aspx
$66.5B – health care/dshs $28.7B; 43%. Education spending is 44%
July 11, 2013 at 1:02 am #792552
wakefloodParticipantThanks for digging that out, WF. I hope to get a few minutes to look at what you gathered.
I should also say that I too wish we spent more on offsetting the cost of education for working folks too. It’s too big of a burden and making college just plain unaffordable for many.
BTW, how do you feel about the GOP-controlled House (Federal) NOT acting on the bill that would have prevented the interest rate on student loans from doubling?
I only bring it up as it seems you feel that Dems (at least statewide) are to blame for much of our educational finances? Or did I misinterpret that?
July 11, 2013 at 1:27 am #792553
WFMemberi am an independent voter. neither party is serving the middle class.
jacking interest rates on student loans is not the right path; but there needs to be an offsetting cut in some other spending.
regarding washington the D’s have controlled the State for many many years. thankfully there was a bit of push back from the senate this biennium otherwise college tuition would have likely gone up another 3% (from what I recollect from the house budget)
July 11, 2013 at 4:01 pm #792554
wakefloodParticipantSince you mention Oregon specifically, thought I’d toss a few bits into the mix.
First, Oregon has the 4th worst HS graduation rate of all 50 states. Worst if you only count white kids.
That’s here: http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2012/11/oregons_high_school_graduation.html
Second, they’re in the process of instigating an entirely new plan to take banks out of the student loan process and get kids out of college debt way faster and increase affordability.
That’s here:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/175166/oregon-trail-end-student-debt#axzz2Ykle6dvh
July 11, 2013 at 6:08 pm #792555
WFMemberwakeflood i used oregon since it is adjacent to washington.
the subject is how is the middle class doing.
how government spends tax revenue has a great influence on this; in particular education spending and to a lesser extent recreation and other items.
in washington tax revenue has risen more than the CPI and population. the one sided (left field) washington legislature has failed to fund education that adversely affects the middle class.
middle class people with kids in college have been hit particularly hard with double digit tuition increases (essentially a tax on students/parents). the one sided government (until this bienium) failed to protect the middle class.
fortunately for the middle class the legislature now is more in balance; and no tuition increase occurred!
and in Seattle the middle class has been hit with added taxes due to the City de-funding basic City services such as infrastructure maintenance, and libraries; and then foisting levies to pay for these items that should be funded out of City revenue; not via levy.
July 11, 2013 at 6:30 pm #792556
wakefloodParticipantHow the middle class is doing is greatly influenced by how tax revenue is spent???
Really?
After all the data and discussions posted on this blog related to a massive transfer of wealth OUT of the middle class and into the 1% via tax law, union busting, etc., etc., etc. and you want to focus on probably the LAST element in the list of significance? Why do you think the middle class is in crisis in EVERY STATE OF THE UNION??? Goodness, the lack of logic stuns me…
As I said several posts above. We have to agree to disagree.
July 11, 2013 at 6:41 pm #792557
skeeterParticipantHere’s the problem. Yes, the state is taking in more tax revenues, even after adjusting for population growth and CPI. So why are services being cut and less funding for college? Two reasons.
#1 – state retirement program. State employees have an incredible retirement and medical program. Far more generous than Federal employees and better than probably 99.9% of private sector. A lot of state employees are retiring and it is costing the taxpayers a fortune. Seattle Times has covered this pretty well.
#2 – medical coverage for poor people. There are more and more people unable to afford medical insurance, so the state provides it. Even more challenging – poor people tend to have more children than wealthy people, so taxpayer medical costs for births are skyrocketing. Seattle Times ran an article – more than 50% of babies born in Washington State have medical costs paid by taxpayers.
I don’t know how to fix either challenge. I’m just explaining, from my perspective, how services are getting cut even though tax revenues are increasing.
July 11, 2013 at 6:44 pm #792558
WFMemberwakefield tax revenue in washington has risen faster than inflation and population thus how it is spent DOES make a difference. washington’s left wing legislature failed to fund education and allowed college tuition to increase by a horrendous amount (a tax on students/parents).
i do not argue that the very wealthy 1% should pay more in taxes and there are a number of tax loop holes that are stupid. but the choice of how tax revenue (that has increased faster than the CPI and population) is spent does make a difference.
like i had mentioned in a prior post this left wing legislature found money to pay for health care for illegal immigrants but could not adequately fund education!
July 11, 2013 at 6:45 pm #792559
wakefloodParticipantOne last analogy.
The middle class in this country (and many other developed economies) has been a frog in a pot for 30yrs. Those with $ and Power have been turning up the heat slowly but surely over that time.
The only reason there hasn’t been revolution in the streets (OWS notwithstanding) is because it’s been a gradual process. The frog ribbits a bit and the heat goes up a tad more.
And now we’re just about soup. And our kids are going to be less well off than we were, as a group. And our society crumbles from within.
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