abortions

[JanS]

Full tilt..Alan Keyes…now there’s an exemplary person…yes, that is definitely to laugh at…

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[RainyDay1235]

NewResident wrote:

>>How about thanking those women that could have chosen to have an abortion because they weren’t financially ready, emotionally ready, or relationship ready to have a baby, but didn’t?

Why would anyone do that? That just screams selfishness and irresponsibility – the two traits that have absolutely no place in child rearing. Again, the thought of a world where every child is wanted, planned for, and loved would be utopia compared to these high rates of poverty, child abuse and welfare. I honor a woman’s right to have a child even if she’s not prepared b/c it’s HER body, but thank her? I think not.

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[JoB]

thanks bt23..

a fine recipe…

just the though of the smell of that dish lifts my mood.

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[JoB]

As a woman who chose to have a child and give him up to adoption, i can tell you that it is incredibly painful to be thanked for not killing your child.

The assumption built into that thank you is that you are somehow less of a good person because you became pregnant and that you need to be thanked for doing the right thing after all.

i did the right thing for me… because of who i am… and i don’t need thanking for that.

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[FullTilt]

Steven Levit pointed out in his book Freakenomics, that crime rates dropped in states that had legalized abortion. Seems that unwanted children are prone to become criminals. Here is a quote from the book.

We offer evidence that legalized abortion has contributed significantly to recent crime reductions. Crime began to fall roughly 18 years after abortion legalization. The 5 states that allowed abortion in 1970 experienced declines earlier than the rest of the nation, which legalized in 1973 with Roe v. Wade. States with high abortion rates in the 1970s and 1980s experienced greater crime reductions in the 1990s. In high abortion states, only arrests of those born after abortion legalization fall relative to low abortion states. Legalized abortion appears to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime.

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[JoB]

imagine that.

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[beachdrivegirl]

If it makes those that suppoprt abortion feel better to believe the asinine statistic that crime rates fell due to legalized abortion feel free continue but I know myself (as well as i am sure others) arent going to believe such ludacris statement.

Furthermore, although I did not have time to read NR’s link I think it is out of line to call her attacking JoB. NR made a point I was going to make myself. JoB was claiming that she had more knowledge on something that she did not experience. LBG did experience that. Personally, I give the person that has gone through the experience the credit and laugh @ the individual that likes to believe they are more credible and have more knowledge.

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[Ken]

Some of us are old enough to remember when abortion was illegal. I was just a high school kid but I knew how important Roe v Wade was. I grew up in a southern military town. I knew many families who had lost sons and husbands to VietNam and a few who had lost daughters to illegal abortions.

I don’t know anyone who is “pro abortion” or anti life. These are false labels used to mask the fact that either your are pro choice or anti choice.

The 4th amendment to the constitution is the basis and the cornerstone of most of the differences between liberals and authoritarians and it is at the core of this conflict as well.

I do know that I cannot and will not tell any person what they must do with their own body. It is not my place and it is not your place.

Those who feel the Bible has something to say on the subject should really read and interpret what it says without twisting it into insanity.

Genesis 2:7 says, “And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

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If, when men come to blows, they hurt a woman who is pregnant and she suffers a miscarriage, though she does not die of it, the man responsible must pay the compensation demanded of him by the woman’s master; he shall hand it over, after arbitration. But should she die, you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Exodus 21:22-24, Jerusalem Bible)

Note birth and the first breath are milestones where a fetus becomes a person with its own soul as far as the Bible is concerned. This is also supported by many centuries of Jewish Law.

So death of a fetus = a fine

Death of a woman = death

The same people who want to use “science” to argue that life begins at conception, often insist the earth is 6000 years old though Science directly and thoroughly contradicts this.

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“The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion”

In 1973, after Roe v. Wade, abortion became legal but had to be performed in a hospital. That of course was changed later. For the first ‘legal abortion day’ I had scheduled five procedures. While scrubbing between cases, I was accosted by the Chief of the OB/Gyn service. He asked me, ‘How many children are you going to kill today?’ My response, out of anger, was a familiar vulgar retort. About three months later, this born-again Christian called me to explain that he was against abortion but his daughter was only a junior in high school and was too young to have a baby and he was also afraid that if she did have a baby she would not want to put it up for adoption. I told him he did not need to explain the situation to me. ‘All I need to know’, I said, ‘is that SHE wants an abortion.’ Two years later I performed a second abortion on her during her college break. She thanked me and pleaded, ‘Please don’t tell my dad, he is still anti-abortion.'” (Physician, Washington State)

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml

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From the same author:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/22/9334/83825

excerpt:

Although few studies have been made of this phenomenon, a 1981 study (Henshaw, S.K. and G. Martire. Abortion and the Public Opinion Polls: 1. Morality and Legality. Family Planning Perspectives. 14:2, pp 53-60, March/April 1982) found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong, and 7% of women who’d had abortions disagreed with the statement, “Any woman who wants an abortion should be permitted to obtain it legally.” A 1994/95 survey of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women oppose abortion, as research shows Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women, and one in five women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians.

More at the above links.

reference links:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2814096.html

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/prabort2.html

http://www.prochoice.org/pubs_research/publications/downloads/about_abortion/women_who_have_abortions.pdf

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[JoB]

Beachdrivegirl..

why is the crime statistic assinine?

it is a fact that the crime rates did go down subsequent to the availability of abortion for woman who were not in a position to responsibly raise a child…just about the time those children would have been old enough to contribute to crime. it’s probably not a coincidence.

the key word there is responsibly…

it is easy to legislate someone else’s morality when you are talking about the possibility of life… and you don’t have to pick up the tab for the child that is actually born.

The woman carrying that child ultimately has to take full responsibility for the child she gives birth to…

and society pays the consequences if she can’t.

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[Cait]

Wow… well the next time BDG posts a statistic I’m not going to be so apt to give it the time of day if it doesn’t fit with MY personal agenda. And that’s the problem of this whole thread: everyone is dealing with their own personal agenda. We’re all pretty steadfast in our beliefs so what are we hoping to gain here? I’m a very proud and active pro-choice advocate and though you may make a good point, you will not change my mind.

You can feel sorry for me if you want, you can think I’m going to hell when I die or whatever helps you sleep better, but neither side of this argument has a leg to stand on with the other. I’m beginning to wonder why we even felt it necessary to start this thread in the first place – what are we hoping to gain?

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[beachdrivegirl]

Actually I just research what others post on here before I believe it. I generally try not to believe everything I read. I also question people that support my opinion as well b/c for the most part i value my credibilty when speaking to others. That is the same reason why I generally tend to state when I am stating an opinon rather than a fact unlike some who regular post on the blog.

My biggest concern with the freakonomics argument is that unlike some who believe that this study was a crime statistic. It is not. It manages to forget to mention that it is using correalational statistics. Meaning that it is very likely something other than abortion causd the decrease in crime rates. There are numerous arguments against it and if you want to educate yoruself on the matter feel free to right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

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[Cait]

As much as I love wikipedia I may have to call bunk on this one. The implication FOR the theory is that unwilling mothers give birth to criminals which I am not willing to believe, but I think that it’s a little naive to think that they are not related AT ALL. In my experience wikipedia is an excellent tool for arguing whatever you want, so I tend to shy away from it. I’m sure there are plenty of arguments against the theory, but I’m not so willing to believe that these aren’t at least in SOME way indirectly related. Particularly from this source. I suppose I did warn you about not being willing to believe your source, didn’t I :)

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[beachdrivegirl]

Yes you did say that you wouldnt believe a source; however, nearly every link that comes up when googling the correlation between legalized abortion and crime rates debunks the study mentioned in the Freakonomics book. When you look @ the errors that the study has in it and then also consider the fact that they are correlational statics i am not sold on this *idea*.

Here is another link:

http://www.nrlc.org/news/2001/NRL06/randylaura.html

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[Cait]

Well, as I said I’m sure there are many reasons not to believe it and I’m not sold on the idea either. However, just because it’s an unsavory thought does not mean that there is at least a minimal correlation. I’m not willing to give up on it completely, but I’m not going to go around saying that abortions will keep crime rates down. I’m sure there is another factor here but I’m also curious to see how they are all related because I’m sure they are, but not exactly in the way Freakonomics put it.

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[JoB]

I don’t think i care one way or another…

but if you use common sense… if women who historically had very limited opportunity to get abortions, women in the lowest socioeconomic class.. suddenly had the option not to have a child they couldn’t responsibly raise…

And if birth rates among single poor women did go down…

that children they didn’t have would not be raised by a single mother in poverty in substandard educational systems without the kinds of after school and nutrition programs available to more affluent children and would not be subject to the temptations of gang life and crime…

it seems to me, if there are fewer of those children, the crime rates would go down…

so it is probably not unreasonable to assume that if there is a strong correlation between the availability of abortion and lowering of subsequent crime rates that stands up when applied to differing geographical areas that instituted availability at differing times..

that it is likely a factor in the reduction of crime rates.

You can reject that argument if you want to, but it is as reasonable as the many other explanations….

including the NRA’s assumption that crime rates go down where gun laws are more lax.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Your arugument is based on the assumption that the most troubled women are the ones that are having the abortions. However, studies have shown that typically the most troubled women are opting to not have an abortion. Feel free to keep your opinion, but remmeber that waht you are stating above is just that an opinion.

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[JoB]

No, my argument is based on the assumption that the reason birth rates for poor women went down after abortions became available and affordable for those women is that they exercised their choice to not deliver a child they couldn’t support and raise responsibly.

I am curious though about your second statement..

if troubled women are those who are opting not to have an abortion and opting not to give up their children (thus the waiting lists for those perfect adoptable babies) …

and troubled women are those who are contributing to the problems of unwanted children in our foster system…

why is having the child at any cost a good thing for the young mother, the child or society?

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[beachdrivegirl]

So you think that poor women are the only ones that have babies that inturn will committ crimes? Because that is what you are making your agrument out to be.

And, i am not sure where your last question is coming from. From what I have read, troubled women will have the child regardless as to whehter or not abortions are legal? Are you suggesting that we force abortions upon any women that doesnt fit my *idea* of a potentially untrobuled women? Which no, I dont believe any women should be forced into abortion. I also dont believe abortions should be as unregualted as they are. But that is an interesting spin on things to suggest we force an abortion onto any “troubled” women b/c some (well you) feel that in the long run it is better for society, the child, and the young mother(speaking of which, what is your idea of the age cut off for these forced abortions since you do use the termonology young in your statement. is 22 young or is 45 b/c i have seen troubled women of both ages.)?

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[Cait]

BDG – perhaps some sort of source on this would be nice. I have read studies that suggest that in fact it is women from lower incomes and lower socioeconomic neighborhoods who don’t have access to affordable birth control in the first place who are receiving the most abortions. I’d have to find the article at my house, but I’m sure that info is readily available. I knew I kept that women’s studies reader for a reason!

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[JoB]

Beachdrivegirl…

no i don’t think poor women are the only ones who have children who will end up committing crimes.

what made you think i did?

i think poor women don’t have the same resources available to them to help them raise an educationally or financially competitive child..

and children without other options are more likely to turn to crime to succeed.

on your other point…

tho i suspected that the basic premise of your argument on the point that troubled women choosing not to have abortions was flawed to begin with…

…i don’t doubt you saw the statistic that more “troubled” unwed mothers kept their babies than those who had a better support system and more options. I wonder how they defined troubled?…

i wanted to see where you were going with your reasoning.

i am sorry that your reply is so tangled and full of judgments.. both those you think i have made and those you are making… that i can’t follow it well enough to comment…

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[Anonymous]

Rainyday – Your entire post is extremely unclear to me. Are you suggesting that a woman who does not plan to have a child, yet decides to have that child and raises it is “selfish”? And you are arguing this against the decision of killing a child (or denying a child life) as being NOT selfish? Do you know any single moms? How about those single moms that are NOT on welfare, or living in poverty, or raising criminals? They do exist, and they deserve credit for what they have done, more so (IMO) than the woman who decided that her life was more important than that of her un-born baby, so did away with it.

“Those who feel the Bible has something to say on the subject should really read and interpret what it says without twisting it into insanity.” – Ken

Ken – Although my thoughts regarding abortion have absolutely nothing to do with the Bible (I’m absolutely NOT religious in any way), if you switch the word “Bible” with the word “Constitution” in the above statement, it is just as factual of a statement. The Constitution holds NO language to support abortion. It is merely “interpretation”, which, isn’t that the very argument you are making with your thoughts on the Bible?

I agree with the majority of posters here in that no one is apt to change their mind on this issue. However, discussion about abortion is extremely interesting and thought-provoking (when the insulting and cattiness stay at bay). For instance, I would like to understand the argument about letting abortion rights become a state decision. What reasons, or points, can be offered to prove that would be a bad thing?

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

sorry if i sounded unkind.. you generally have well thought out positions… i jsut couldn’t follow that one.

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[Cait]

NR – I actually think it might be good to leave it to the states and let the Government with the capital G make more pertinent decisions. By that I mean ones that are less likely to be influenced by their religious beliefs. Not that this won’t happen at the state level I just get the impression that I get more of a say with my governor than I do with my president. I’m all for it! Interested as to what your thoughts may be on the subject…

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[Anonymous]

Cait – See, if people of differing views discuss something long enough, they can actually find common ground. :)

I do agree that it should be a state decision. It is not in the Constitution and, therefore, should be decided by state. I also agree that it should be voted on by the people. Everyone’s choice on the issue should count and matter. I think that way you would also be able to regulate it somewhat (which a lot of people disagree with), but again, everyone’s vote would count.

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[bt23]

I am always amazed how conservatives and rabid xtians are really big on small Government and personal freedom, until it is something they do not like. Keep the government out of the issue of guns, but please protect us from Homos, abortions, science, sex ed, womans rights, Mexicans, and books. The double standards are amazing.

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