West Seattle

Shibaguyz April 23, 2009 (12:34 pm)

We thought it was one of the shops down the hill from us here! Sounds like a leaf blower going in the middle of the night. Only hear it every once in a while and if I’m awake really late.

Last time we heard it was Sunday night. Again, just thought it was one of the nearby mechanics working late in their shops. There is also a sewing factory at the end of the block that goes pretty much 24/7. Just thought it was one of those.

We’re on 18th Ave SW between Barton & Henderson.

Michelle April 23, 2009 (12:41 pm)

I’ve been hearing this for months! Also thought it sounded like a faraway vacuum. Near Fauntleroy and Findlay.

Ken April 23, 2009 (12:44 pm)

I’ve been hearing it the last few nights too, from around 30th and Kenyon. Thought it might be a police copter at first, although I couldn’t see it, but after it went on for several nights figured it had to be something else.

Chris M April 23, 2009 (12:49 pm)

This would be a long shot… but, I notice when I look south going over the West Seattle Bridge one of the big concrete domes in the industrial complex went from concrete-looking, to brilliant white…

I think that one of the domes there has had a “bubble” constructed around it, and it looks like there might be some sort of ventilation/inflation equipment at the bottom of it.

I’ve been curious about it… just not curious enough to dig into it. :)

rockyraccoon April 23, 2009 (12:57 pm)

I’ve heard it for a couple of nights recently from
Trenton/32nd. I thought it sounded like a transformer on a telephone pole going bad.

rockyraccoon April 23, 2009 (12:58 pm)

And it’s a horrible thing when a telephone pole goes bad…

Keli April 23, 2009 (1:19 pm)

I’ve been hearing this for the past few weeks (since it’s been warm and I’ve been sleeping with my window open).

I live at 34th and Holden, I thought it was the cooling system at John’s Deli which gets pretty loud during the summer.

But, if people can hear it from miles around, I doubt that’s it.

miws April 23, 2009 (1:21 pm)

Ironically, that thread over on Forums was revived the same evening, or perhaps morning after, I heard a hum.

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I’ve been in my apartment, on the Thriftway block of California for nine years, and don’t recall hearing a hum, at least not on a regular basis.

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I attributed this, the other evening, to my air purifying machine that I always leave on the “high” setting. Didn’t think it was that at first, but when I turned it down to “medium”, the hum seemed to go away, so I just hoped the machine wasn’t going on the fritz! :(

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A buddy of mine, that posts here regularly, lives across the hall from me. In the past, he has complained about somebody running a leaf blower at odd hours. Seemingly too early for Thriftway, McDonalds, or any other nearby business to be running one.

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When the “hum” thread originally came up, I meant to ask him if he thought that may be what he had been hearing, but I can’t remembered if I aksed him or not. I also haven’t heard him mention it in quite some time.

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Maybe he’ll weigh in here.

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Mike

Shibaguyz April 23, 2009 (1:25 pm)

Sounds like the letter WSB posted at the top of this story is from someone right here near our house. The other areas are not anywhere near us… don’t think we’d hear anything from that far away (?).

MiniBeeLP April 23, 2009 (1:26 pm)

Wow, this is so amazing to come across this. I live just north of Westwood Village and heard it earlier this week as I was trying to go to sleep. It was a really annoying sound that sort of waxed and waned. I opened the window, trying to figure out what it was. Then I wondered if it was just my hearing going bad. It is nice to know that this is not the case. Hope not to hear it again any time soon.

miws April 23, 2009 (1:28 pm)

Chris M, You may not want to “dig into” what’s going on beneath those domes. Who knows what nefarious things might be happening! ;)

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They were discussed recently here on WSB, and I don’t recall if anyone posted that they had actually seen them being painted, so perhaps, something else caused them to go from concrete looking to white! :o

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Mike

Under_Achiever April 23, 2009 (1:36 pm)

Washington State Department of Transportation Ferry engines.
.
Really.
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Made me crazy for 9 months until I figured it out.

WSB April 23, 2009 (1:39 pm)

You know, we’re just up the hillside from the Fauntleroy ferry dock and this sounded different. But it’s certainly plausible. Sound carries in funny ways; we hear the trains on/near Harbor Island even though that’s up and over the hill and several miles away … TR

barton_st April 23, 2009 (1:41 pm)

It’s not the ferries. I’ve lived near 35th and Barton (less than 1 mile up the street from the Fauntleroy ferry terminal) for nearly six years, and this is the first time I’ve heard this sound.

Lisa April 23, 2009 (1:51 pm)

Yep we live on 42nd just up the hill from the Fauntleroy Ferry and we heard it first it seemed to be coming across the valley towards the east (35th Ave) Then when I opened our west facing front door it seemed to be coming from there. What was it? Is there an update?

Under_Achiever April 23, 2009 (1:56 pm)

it’s the ferry.

jsrekd April 23, 2009 (1:57 pm)

We live on Gatewood Hill, overlooking Thriftway, and my hubby thinks it’s the HVAC system at TW, I think it’s a tugboat or container ship on the Sound. Sometimes I swear it’s the freeway – which we can here on a cloudy night. Only notice it when it’s summerish and the windows are open

scott April 23, 2009 (2:13 pm)

I have heard “the hum” for years. google “the hum”, it is heard all around the world. However, since January it has been a lot louder than normal, but according to the hum forum on yahoo, this is true throughout the states, especially North Carolina and Oregon as well as here. I am not saying that this is what we are hearing now, since “normys” seem to be hearing it now also (those of you who don’t usually hear it), but it is a possibility. The strange thing is that it is sporadic,and I don’t here it quite as much as in Jan and Feb, when it was constant and UNBEARABLE.It is in a frequency that makes your “walls vibrate”, that is why it is heard more intensely INSIDE than out. I also have to use fans and white noise machines to counter the vibration. I wish I could tell you what it is, but scientists have been trying to figure it out since the 1960’s. It can make you crazy, especially when you are trying to sleep, but knowing that others hear it and that you are not crazy helps, though I have compassion for you and would not wish this on anyone. Those of you that hear it know what I mean.

possibly? April 23, 2009 (2:21 pm)

Being a boeing contractor and having worked on all Puget Sound Boeing sites, I know that Boeing does engine testing on Boeing field. I have heard them here in Arbor Heights. Basically due West of Boeing field. Just an idea.

sw April 23, 2009 (2:28 pm)

My vote is for the ferry or other ships on the Sound. At night when things are quiet, even the slightest noise will carry quite a ways.

t4toby April 23, 2009 (2:32 pm)

I live south of Roxbury on 21st and wondered what it was, too. I figured it was some shop in white Center, maybe the tortilla plant.

Its not the ferries, it is too consistant.

I was up really late the other night (4 am)and could hear it. I didn’t think there were ferries running in the middle of the night. I though it might be ships in the Sound, but it seemed too constant.

LA April 23, 2009 (2:38 pm)

We live in Pigeon Point (hill on the side of the WS Bridge) and I hear this noise CONSTANTLY. I wondered if it was the steel mill?? Whatever the outcome, I’m glad I’m not crazy. It sounds like someone is vaccuming or leaf blowing all night long. Help us West Seattle Blog! :(

Shibaguyz April 23, 2009 (2:40 pm)

Parking lot sweeper! THAT is what it sounds like! Probably down at West Wood??

Spud April 23, 2009 (2:47 pm)

RE: the domes…

The larger white one that seemed to pop up over night is a new storage dome.

I’m not an expert on dome construction, but check this out…

http://www.dometech.com/content/Technology/ConstructionProcess.aspx

They use large fans to “inflate” the dome and then fill it in… maybe the hum is the fans?

shed22 April 23, 2009 (2:49 pm)

ChrisM . . . thank you for making mention of the big white dome at the concrete factory. one day it seemed to just appear and I had to question whether or not it had been that way all along and i just had never noticed. i’m sorry i missed the previous blog discussion on the topic. now back to the hummmmmmmmm . . .

shed22 April 23, 2009 (2:50 pm)

thanks, Spud. i think we were typing at the same time.

WSB April 23, 2009 (2:57 pm)

I just had a fascinating chat with a city noise abatement person, will add the summary in a bit. Short answer, though, they have not had any complaints, and while they’d be happy to take complaints, he stresses, pleasantly, they are not sleuths … they tell people to “knock it off” but need to know WHO to tell to “knock it off”! – TR

56bricks April 23, 2009 (3:30 pm)

I’m the guy across the hall from miws and I do hear “the hum” sporadically. Sometimes more,sometimes less. My ears are sensitive to certain cycles of electric motors so often I hear things others don’t. I’ve taken to using white noise also so the hum doesn’t bother me as much but the voices are still a bit of a concern!

Matt Durham April 23, 2009 (3:44 pm)

My bet is on ship engines, possibly the container ships tied up in port. Could also be the ferries. I have kayaked aropund the port several times to realize the “hum” I’ve heard from my open bedroom window, since moving here in 95, has the same tonal qualities as the container ships.

Bianca April 23, 2009 (3:50 pm)

FINALLY! A post about the mysterious hum. I’m in the Ocean View community and heard this months ago. It kept me up for hours in the 3-4 AM range. At the time I inquired as to whether any other WSBers were reporting it, but none were. I even went out into the streets to walk around for the source. Nothing. To me it sounded as if it were coming from the south-west direction. Haven’t heard it since – luckily. It was absolutely brain numbing.

KBear April 23, 2009 (3:51 pm)

Ferries hum. Street sweepers hum. Idling trucks hum. HVAC systems hum. Steel mills hum. Planes and trains hum. Conspiracy theorists hum. We have all of these in West Seattle, and they all make noise at night. What makes you all think you’re talking about the same particular hum?

KBear April 23, 2009 (3:52 pm)

Oh yeah, and container ships hum.

Save Our Streets Seattle April 23, 2009 (3:53 pm)

Whew, it’s good to know the hum is real and not just in my head! I’ve been wondering about this. I live in Highland Park on the west side of the hill on Trenton Street, and the hum seems to be S or SW of here. But as many have said, it’s a difficult sound to pinpoint because of its low drone and Seattle’s odd geographical acoustics. I hope we can solve this mystery as a community. My lead “suspects” are ferry noise and industrial noise from the Duwamish river area.

MLJ April 23, 2009 (4:00 pm)

I am an audio engineer who has done extensive field and nature recording for the past 20 years. Many of my subjects have been low-volume environmental recordings like ambient nature soundscapes. And yes…I’ve been hearing the hum that Scott is talking about from my home near Holy Rosary, but I think it’s entirely different than what’s being discussed here.

What’s frustrating is that reading scott’s post, even I thought he sounded crazy, but I hear it at varying levels to this day. And yes, it was way louder back in the early part of the year.

I am starting to find some correlation between water saturation levels in the soil and the volume of the sound. Water is a very proficient conductor of sound, so this helps with the ground vibration theory.

Right now I am focusing my investigation on the water tower at 40th and Charleston, the Nucor plant, idling trains at the port, and the sewage tunnel that runs out to Alki.

MLJ April 23, 2009 (4:05 pm)

Matt: I hadn’t thought of idling ships.

And KBear is right, I think there are different hum problems being discussed here. The one I’m talking about is extremely low-frequency and has an interesting signature. It actually bumps up in frequency approx 1 octave briefly, at uneven intervals, and jumps back down to the base frequency.

I have recently procured a hydrophone in an effort to capture the sound on tape, but am still waiting for it to come back up in volume. Right now it’s extremely soft.

WSB April 23, 2009 (4:05 pm)

Talking to the city guy – he thought the sewage tunnel might be a culprit. But he said the key is to try to test for the frequency in multiple locations to see if everyone’s hearing the same thing! When I heard it the other night outside the Southwest Precinct, I was going to my car along Webster by the slope down to the creek – where there’s a ventilation cage of some sort …

Shibaguyz April 23, 2009 (4:26 pm)

I’m going with aliens… definitely aliens…

Jim April 23, 2009 (4:40 pm)

Haven’t heard anything lately here in Shorewood. But we do have to Cement plants running 24 hours a day. One at Spokane and East Marginal, and the other further South on West Marginal. You also have the furnace at the Steel plant. As for those up on the West side of the hill, the 5000 HP tugs that frequent puget sound, usually have Twin EMD locomotive engines that will drone all night long as they head to Tacoma. I can hear those quite clearly at night. If it has twin engines, then you can usually hear a low sine wave emanate from the boat, as a result of the engine RPM’s being slightly out of sync. often it is that throbbing rhythm that brings the sound out of the background noise of the city, and lets you focus on it. Newer tugs have devices which will sync the engines, to take away the that sine wave. It is similar to two musical instruments being tuned. They stand out much more when they are out of tune, then as you adjust the tuning you hear the sine wave slow down then disappear.

Leroniusmonkfish April 23, 2009 (4:54 pm)

When I lived on Palm Ave I used to hear the “hum” more often than not. I attributed it to the ship screws/propellers. Whith the combination of ferries, container ships and cruise liners during the summer months I would hear this all the time depending on the wind direction and could actually feel the vibrations on some days.

Leroniusmonkfish April 23, 2009 (5:23 pm)

Or…maybe it’s just that everyone that signed up for the WSB Twitter has it configured to vibration mode on their cellphones and the “hum” everyone is hearing are all of the informative updates being sent out…..

Lucky Lou April 23, 2009 (5:42 pm)

I live on 35th Ave SW, south of Providence Mt. St. Vincent, and the noise is definitely not a ferry. The noise is coming from east of 35th. The noise is low frequency, like a low power vacuum, not high power like a leaf blower. It is a constant noise at a constant volume. Would love to know what it is.

It could be far away, too. I am always surprised to hear trains all the way up on south 35th, but I hear them, much to my chagrin, so this thing could be that far away.

toddinwestwood April 23, 2009 (5:48 pm)

Hey t4toby, I am on 21st and Rox too. welcome neighbor.

THe hum is the collective brain waves of all living things.

whatsthisnoise? April 23, 2009 (6:17 pm)

Good to see that there is a discussion about this. Just moved here about two months ago and I have to admit that this dull “hum” is causing me to really be concerned. I live near the High Point development and we hear it mostly at night. I work from home and have heard it twice during the day in the afternoon. For all you “doubters” who have posted silly comments, want to dismiss it to vacuums, fans, trains, aliens or whatever – grow up. This is definitely a mechanical hum that stays at a steady drone and seems to fluctuate between two intensities. From where I live, it sounds like it is mostly coming from the southwest. It is very confusing, because it seems to be coming from different places at times. Somewhere a nearby company is generating this industrial noise and it should be taken care of. I will say that it started appearing for us shortly after the new big white dome at the concrete factory appeared overnight. Does anyone know how to have something like this investigated by the city?

MB April 23, 2009 (6:34 pm)

I’m so glad to hear my husband and I aren’t crazy!!! We live in Highland Park and we’ve been hearing it the last few nights and also a few nights about a month ago. It seems to happen off and on, but it is incredibly annoying and a noise we can’t explain. Someone make it stop!! I’ve lived in my house for over a year and have never heard this noise except the last few months.

MB April 23, 2009 (6:36 pm)

Oh, and from Highland Park (at least for me) it sounds like it’s coming from the South.

WSB April 23, 2009 (6:39 pm)

I spoke with the city reps this afternoon and the deal is, they can’t investigate just to figure it out – they need to hear from people who have some idea of where it’s coming from – as I mentioned above, the inspector with whom I spoke put it, they are enforcers – not sleuths … TR

56bricks April 23, 2009 (6:55 pm)

I’ll grow up when mummy says I have to. Meanwhile I’ll listen to the pretty humming. Lighten up. It’s there,it’s a fact so let’s have some fun with speculation. Another facet of the West Seattle mystique.

lina April 23, 2009 (6:57 pm)

i work in magnuson park where the ‘Soundgarden’ sculpture is. makes a erie hum/whistle noise. took me months to figure it out.

could there be some structure causing the noise? although it sounds like there is not enough variation in the sound for it to be caused by air moving through some space.

Alex April 23, 2009 (7:09 pm)

Hummmmm…

There’s a link on Wikipedia on this and a few other interesting links at the bottom of the page relating to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hum

Marshall April 23, 2009 (8:52 pm)

I live near Our Lady Guadalupe church. We have heard it for a week or two now. I have lived here 10 years and never heard it before. I know it is not the ferry. It sound like it is coming from North of us. So High Point or possibly Harbor Island??

Eddie April 23, 2009 (9:16 pm)

Notice how that bright white dome at the cement plant has a bright cross shaped spot that follows you as you go past it? Really, check it out.

Joe April 23, 2009 (10:07 pm)

I’ve lived in the Arbor Heights area my whole life and have only recently heard the noise which pretty much coincided with the opening of the third runway. The planes are closer, there may be more traffic, or more idling planes. I would be interested to hear how many trees were removed during the project as well. Trees are definitely sound dampeners.
Also, on a semi related note.. the flight patterns must have changed. Planes used to never fly low over Arbor Heights except while the Blue Angels were flying. Every once in a while now there are planes taking off to the north that bank hard to the west and are flying at pretty low altitudes.
Well that’s my theory.

Vanessa C April 23, 2009 (10:41 pm)

Ha, ha, ha…I too, live near Mt.St.Vincent’s, and I figured out years ago it had to be the ferry boats.
Even miles away from the water, I can hear and almost feel it coming thru the earth when I lay quiet at night………

menolikey April 24, 2009 (12:02 am)

It is engine test runs at Boeing. Or aliens planning an attack. We’ve heard it forever, off and on, but lately they are running a lot of tests now at all hours getting caught up after the strike, etc…. so what I’ve been hearing it exactly that, large Rolls Royce or such jet engines. As for the concrete dome that is white — that is a mystery to me — when did that appear or happen?! I just noticed it about a week or so ago.

WSB April 24, 2009 (12:04 am)

Few weeks ago.

Drew April 24, 2009 (12:46 am)

Ferries & containerships don’t radiate as much noise as you might think. Tugboats sometimes do, but the sound tends to be more of a throbbing or thrumming, as another poster observed.

As described, this hum might be Boeing noise, or perhaps another industry in the Duwamish area. My Dad was a WS resident for 30 years, and he swore that Boeing had a wind tunnel which they ran at weird hours. I don’t know whether that’s still the case, but engine testing sounds plausible, too.

Eddie April 24, 2009 (6:28 am)

I’m fairly certain that Boeing/Boeing Field users aren’t going to the be the source –

– Honor voluntary restriction of nighttime engine maintenance run-ups and other activity between the hours of 10 PM to 7 AM

from:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/noise/king_county.html

Also, for menolikey, 99% of all current Boeing activity at that site is 737 (small jets) with engines from CFMi. Do watch for the 787 to begin Flight Testing from there “in the second quarter”

KD April 24, 2009 (9:04 am)

KBear is right – we may be talking about a lot of different hums here, but I have heard something like what’s being described, from Arbor Heights – mechanical, like a leave blower or a vaccume – late at night. Then once I saw it – it was, most definitely, a parking lot sweeper cruising the Roxbury Safeway parking lot. Not saying it’s what everyone’s hearing, but that was the end of my mystery.

KD April 24, 2009 (9:05 am)

Sorry – that was leaf blower. And I can’t spell…

Mike April 24, 2009 (9:24 am)

sewage pump, there are quite a few of these for the treatment plants. Considering some of these tubes you can drive a Metro Bus through… it’s a large pump.

flynlo April 24, 2009 (9:36 am)

Drew – I doubt if it is the Boeing wind tunnel.
Yes, they run it at all hours (at least they use to)
but it was totally rebuilt several years ago – one
of the many reasons for the rebuild was noise
attenuation.

MLJ April 24, 2009 (11:53 am)

A huge part of trying to track the source of this noise is that because of the low frequency, it’s totally omnidirectional. The frequency and the fact that it’s being recognized across a wide area also suggests that it’s something very loud, which makes locating it challenging.

It might be interesting to create a central depository for people to note when and where they’re hearing it, so we can look for patterns.

Hopefully I can record it when it gets loud again. It’s been super quiet for quite a while now.

MLJ April 24, 2009 (11:54 am)

PS: I saw a DPD vehicle at the water tower @ Charleston and 40th last night around midnight.

WSB April 24, 2009 (11:55 am)

The guy I talked to (still haven’t summarized that but what I mentioned here hit most of the key points) was very fascinated, hearing of this. So maybe linked. I’ll have to ping him again.

sam April 24, 2009 (1:46 pm)

after reading this, I listened for it – last night.
that was a mistake ! not only could I hear it, but it never went away. (it changed in intensity for a second at 5 am, but then “rev’ed” up again).

to me, it sounded like a neighbor’s exterior air-conditioning unit running, or the sound an amp makes if you leave it turned on when you’re not using it.

I heard it from puget ridge, and it sounded like it was coming from the southeast.

I could even still hear it after closing the windows.

menolikey April 24, 2009 (10:31 pm)

It could be my husband snoring.

Jsv888 April 26, 2009 (8:17 am)

We live in Highpoint and we have heard it for the past two weeks. It drives me crazy, but we only hear it at night. I don’t think it’s ships if someone in Arbor Heights can hear it. So weird!

Amateur scientist April 26, 2009 (10:35 pm)

I’m not a scientist, but doesn’t the fact that we are on a peninsula surrounded by water play into this? Sound is swiftly carried over water, right? I know I live near the Westcrest Reservoir and I’ve heard, unfortunately, gunshots from deep in White Center carry across 1 1/4 to the reservoir where the sound waves got sent out again to within range of my hearing inside my home – at night. Those shots sounded like they were across the street and woke me up from a deep sleep.

So, if that can happen with sound waves of gunshots and just the body of reservoir water, is it that big of a stretch to speculate that all of the other whirs, hums, whistles and thumps in the night from a dozen different sources in as many different locations are being carried further by the nearby waters of the Duwamish, Elliot Bay and the Sound? Especially at night, when all other day time sounds are absent, the “water amplified” sound would be even easier to hear and be more prominent.

Just a two-bit theory. But, hey, it’s got to be better than aliens.

MB April 27, 2009 (3:03 pm)

Ok, I’ve lived here my whole life and I have never hear “this” sound until January of this year. What I’m hearing is not aliens, it’s not a ferry idling, it’s not a ship, it’s not a street sweeper (I know what those sound like). I don’t know what the heck it is, but I’m not imagining it. It’s louder when the windows are shut and it does resemble the sound an amp makes when you leave it on as someone previously mentioned. It’s one of those things that bothers you even more because you can’t figure out what the hell it is. I had wondered if anything changed at the airport in recent months and I think someone did mention the start of the sound coinsiding with the opening of the 3rd runway, who knows?? Maybe we’re all hearing the same thing, maybe not. I can’t speak to sounds being heard in other neighborhoods, but the one being described by multiple people in the Highland Park/Westwood area is exactly the same as what we’re hearing and we all seem to have started hearing it around the same time. I’m just glad to have this resource to know that my husband and I aren’t the only ones hearing it. It’s a mystery, maybe it will never be solved.

Will April 28, 2009 (6:25 pm)

It is not the ferries. I live close to L Park and can easily see when ferries are at the dock. I can hear the sound when I can see that the boats are not there.

jsv888 April 29, 2009 (10:28 pm)

Ok, I figured out what it was at our house. It’s our hot water heater. There’s debris stuck in the pipes that bring the water in from the street causing them to hum and vibrate when water flows through them. I guess the city has had a lot of water problems this year which has caused more debris to flow into the pipes. You can have your system “flushed” by a plumber, whatever that means. I haven’t asked around about prices yet.

becky May 8, 2009 (4:37 am)

Well, I am awake since 2 a.m. and not able to get back to sleep because of the HUM. Several years ago I experienced a noise that nearly drove me nuts and discovered like the rest of you that I was not going crazy. Like you, I turned off all electricity, checked and rechecked the house to no avail.I was finally able to drown it out with a white noise radio and what a relief! ..and it went away for a long time. Lately, however, another Hum (entirely different)has surfaced. We live in the Auburn area and husband thought it was the trains down in the valley but don’t think so. I also hear it out in Enumclaw. Can’t drown this one out. My white noise radio does not mask it, but when it rains heavy and I leave the window open, it helps.. Now I’m happy when it rains especially at night. Ear plugs work, and a sleeping pill……

becky May 8, 2009 (10:56 am)

Here I am again…I figure it is all the people who can’t stay off their blasted cell phones for all their important business… “heterodyne” relating to the production of a lower frequency from the combination of two almost equal high frequencies producing a lower frequency in this way.

Brian May 23, 2009 (4:46 am)

Do not wear ear plugs, you won’t wake to a fire alarm or other emergency.

The hum is most certainly from the industrial area of the Duamish South Park vacinity. Get in your car and do a little investigating. I hate noise. It’s our right to have peace and quite.

becky June 9, 2009 (5:33 am)

Ear plugs or sleeping pills…what is worse? Especially noisy lately. I have especially sensitive hearing but don’t know if that contributes. I fear that many older folks who are infirm are looked at as a little nutty when they complain about these kind of things. Whatever the cause, it is so destructive to peace of mind and sleep.