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(122 posts)

Health Care


  1. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    I have yet to see where in the Constitution Health Care is a government requirement? People have choices, buy health insurance to pay for unexpected situations. If you do not purchase insurance why should the tab be paid by the government?

    If the government simply eliminated all medicaid spending it would save billions of dollars a year.

    I continue to be dumbfounded why so much attention and money is spent on this issue. People are free to make choices and those that choose not to buy insurance should not be bailed out by the government!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  2. Working poor people cannot afford healthcare in this country. HOOP, not cheaters. Not drug addicts. Not the "culture of dependency" people you deride so openly.

    Working.poor.people. You know, the people who make $16 bucks an hour and have no benefits.

    You know them, right?

    No one deserves to die on the street because we allowed corporations to run our healthcare system. But in particular, my barista, my housecleaner, my gas station attendant, my fast food worker, my landscaper, my massage therapist, my retail clerk - none of them - deserve to die because they could not afford a healthcare policy on the open market.

    And please please please don't claim that all these people can easily and affordably buy a comprehensive healthcare policy on the open market today. It is not true. Which is why we have the ACA. You know, to bring all the healthy people into the corporately provided healthcare market to hopefully, yes hopefully, lower costs for everyone.

    So glad you want to head back to serfdom, where the hardest working among us die in the fields. Awesome society to want.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  3. Since the Supreme Court has ruled that the Affordable Care law is Constitutional, whether one agrees with SCOTUS or not is hardly the issue. It is the law.

    The estimated cost to me is $186 per year, almost all of which is the pass on of taxes on insurers and drug companies levied with the law.

    Since these thieves of private industry have been ripping me off for forty or fifty years now, calculations of what they "need" to pass on the consumers are literally nothing compared to the needs they have to pass on the me the increases they imposed each year to line their own pockets and those of their shareholders.

    The benefit to society will be well worth it if citizens become more healthy and less likely to pass on illnesses to me, like the one I have suffered from the current flu epidemic.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  4. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    kgdlg $16/hr = $2,560/month. Insurance for a 50 year old and adult child is $420/month (currently). Tell me why this person cannot afford it?

    c@lbob - the supreme court does decision not mandate health care services be provided. it only makes the requirement to buy insurance legally enforceable. the real problem is not legality it is the mechanism to enforce it. if you don't buy insurance you should not be provided benefits, very simple.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  5. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    Do you also have a hard time seeing where auto insurance is in the Constitutuon as well?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  6. Hoop, do you base your budget on GROSS earnings or take home (NET)? Because in my world, The actual amount of my paycheck matters.

    In this case, someone making 30k a year would like bring home just under 25k after taxes. That equals about 2k a month.

    Do you know how much housing in Seattle costs? do you know how hard it is to find a decent affordable one bed apartment for 1k or under?

    Now let's say this is a single mom (even though I am sure you will deride her as "irresponsible" or having "made to many mistakes" to deserve help)...

    Add gas and car costs (because she can't live close enough to downtown where she works and needs a car to get to work on time after dropping kid at daycare)

    Add food costs
    Add school supplies
    Add Daycare costs

    Yeah, totally, definitely 500 bucks left over for healthcare.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  7. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    that is why you are supposed to delay kids until you are in better financial shape!

    house sharing is far cheaper

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  8. I am done.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  9. so,,,sheis a single mom whose husband ran out onher...and she thought life was grand with two incomes, so they didn't delay kids. Now he's gone and she's stuck. Life is not perfect, hoop...and crap happens. Just because you haven't found yourself in a predicament yet does not mean it doesn't exist. Thank your damned lucky stars that it hasn't. But you're getting older, and you never know what the future holds. I am a prime example...got sick one day, had just been divorced, no insurance yet(had been covered under ex-hubby's), life threatening illness, hospital for 4 months, can't work for over a year, savings gone, lost my business, eventually had to sell my house because ex wanted his money out of it. , had a 15 yo daughter. Yes, I got child support, but it barely paid the rent. And that was 17 years ago. And...has nothing to do with where I'm at now. It took me years to recover, build my own business again...and now look where I'm at...history repeating itself.. So..yes, crap happens...and we deal the best we can, and sometimes we need help, whether it's from the gov't. or from friends. Sometimes one can't be too proud to ask for it.

    I find your attitude about these things sucky, pure and simple. Yes, thanks your damned lucky stars that nothing devastating has hit you yet...but you have many years ahead of you, and you think you're prepared, that you're doing everything right. I have news for you...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  10. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    jans i too have had bad shit happen as everyone does. losing a working spouse is about as bad a thing to happen to anyone. our son was 15 at the time. fortunately we had saved for a rainy day and the small house we had purchased was paid off; and it poured mightily hard.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  11. Posted 1 year ago #         
  12. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    miws nice photo

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  13. angelescrest
    Member Profile

    angelescrest

    If only I could get insurance for the family--independently, and not through work--for five hundred a month. I already pay that much through work...are you for real? Insurance that will cover our existing medical conditions...be they life-threatening or acne, perhaps? Hooper, you really do seem to have that secret for success; a role-model for all! Now, if you could just show me that insurance plan...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  14. Hoop

    um I am 42 and PAY 500.00 per month for insurance. SELF employed. the only god send,is it is a total write off.

    To make it worse it jumped a 100.00 per month AND since I don't have kids and single I pay the FULL 30% in taxes and it has increased another 2.35% for Obama care.

    16.00 per hour you forgot to take out all of the taxes they have to pay and rent is NOT cheap around here. Even in white center a "dump" of an apartment is 800.00 so you must be living in lala land to think that most people can afford that.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  15. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    hammerhead you should look into high deductible type of insurance

    my insurance through group health is a high deductible type of insurance. i essentially pay out of pocket up to the deductible amount before the insurance kicks in. i believe the deductible is $3,250 then it kicks in.

    i understand the rates going up mine went up 14% in one year thanks to obamacare

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  16. Whatever mental gymnastics you want to do to justify your statements, the fact remains that the government can create a health care system and require you to pay for it under the Constitution. GET OVER IT!

    I don't want insurance companies involved in health care, at all, but I live in a world full of "free market" fanatics. I get what the free marketeers force on me, a system rife with corporate skim that imposes the highest health care costs in the world on citizens of the US. Too bad for us all.

    I want every person to get health care focused on prevention because such an environment is good for me.

    I'd like it if it were cheaper, but I have to live with the hand I was dealt.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  17. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    c@lbob - i am over that; i just wish that those that don't buy insurance get denied service as the enforcement hammer instead of puny fines. also the required insurance needs to be risk based to ensure fairness

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  18. You are now talking about something other than the Affordable Care law.

    You are talking about the system that forced the law to be passed.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  19. Sadly hoop I can't do that. If anything were to happen, I have saving for my house payments. I do not want to loose my house. I can pay off(god willing) a hospital bill, but would rather have the plug pulled to be honest.

    No matter what it is a loose loose situation.

    See in other posts: the pork that was attached to the "fiscal bill" and then "we" paying for health care for former presidents, current president and the senate and congress,(not quite sure if we pay for our LOCAL governor or senators) talk about cuts that need to be made there.

    I will admit I do my best to stay informed but it is all very confusing, to be frank I don't trust anything that I do read. So i just pay what I have to pay and give up.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  20. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    high deductible for my plan is per person. i also use high deductibles for all other insurance (car and house) to keep premiums as low as possible.

    what someone taught me years ago is to get as high a deductible as you can then put the monthly savings into the bank that can be used to pay the deductible in the unfortunate need arises.

    hammerhead - i agree the Politicians need to be made to pay for plans like the rest of us; then they would know the true cost of there blankety unfunded mandates.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  21. Hoop
    Your lack of compassion is underwhelming

    Your lack of common sense and self preservation on this issue astounding.

    People without adequate healthcare are a threat to the public health and thus a threat to your family.

    Lack of public healthcare is fuel to epidemic fire

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  22. oddreality
    Member Profile

    Hoop,I just want to see if I got this correctly... the loss of your wife was only a big loss because she was a "working wife"? What if she had been ill and unable to work for a few years? What then? No loss to you or just little one??

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  23. "I continue to be dumbfounded why so much attention and money is spent on this issue. People are free to make choices and those that choose not to buy insurance should not be bailed out by the government"

    **************

    I continue to be dumfounded why so many people respond to this guys posts.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  24. Amen Bonnie. This type of attitude is not worthy of a response. Obviously, Hoop has made up his mind and no one is going to change it. The only thing interesting about it is to see how the "other side" views the rest of us who apparently are slackers and whiners.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  25. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    Bonnie thank you for supporting my position, I too am dumbfounded why such an easy answer to Federal Mandate to buy insurance has not been adopted. If I don't buy health insurance and get sick I potentially die, it is a person responsibility to identify risks they are and are not willing to make.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  26. redblack
    Member Profile

    redblack

    well, geez, the hoop.

    i think i'm going to get food poisoning and then die right on your front porch.

    and, i swear to god, if you call the cops or any other public servant to remove my body from your property, i'm going to come back from whatever afterlife you believe in and call you hypocrite.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  27. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    people need to buy insurance against unforeseen risk. i buy home owners insurance (yes the bank forces it too) because I cannot afford to risk losing the home to a fire. however I carry a high deductible to keep the rate lower.

    if carpenters were forced to rebuild a fire damaged home without getting paid because a person did not pay insurance the person who pays for fire insurance ends up paying more because the carpenters will charge them more to cover the cost to re-build the uninsured persons home.

    but if carpenters refused to rebuild the uninsured persons home the cost to re-build the insured home would be less because they are not trying to recoup the unpaid rebuilding cost.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  28. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    Boy, it's a damn good thing building a home is different than practicing medicine.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  29. hoop..

    so.. are you saying you think everyone should assume the high risk of wiping out their savings every year if a family member gets sick?
    because that is what that high deductible does to underpaid employees

    and you hoop.. what happens if your business fails and you have to make a choice between making the house payment and getting medical care for one of your kids?

    will your fiscal responsibility have you paying the mortgage first regardless of the outcome for your kid?

    reality bites hoop.

    and when you get caught between the cracks...it doesn't much matter who you are or how you have planned for your future...

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  30. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    JoB - that is what the insurance is for to pay for cost beyond the deductible.

    The high deductible makes the monthly insurance premium lower. For example you can pay $800/month for a low deductible plan or say $400/month for a high deductible plan. You then set aside the $400/month into Health Savings account accordingly.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  31. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    I find high deductible plans work well for people who are healthy and don't anticipate frequent doctor visits in the upcoming year. Of you have a chronic condition, then they're not worth it.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  32. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    high deductible plans are the best option; those people that use more services should pay more than those that don't! Once the deductible is paid the insurance kicks in; that is what insurance is for.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  33. hoop..

    i have the option to choose almost any kind of plan i want..
    and i can categorically state that even though we have more than adequate resources
    the high deductible plan is NOT cost effective for us.

    in fact, the high deductible plan would significantly increase our out of pocket expenses...

    one size does not fit all hoop.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  34. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    No it does not JoB; but foisting higher costs on those that do not use health services very much is also not equitable! Changing the rules on use of Health Savings Accounts was blatantly unjust as was done in ObamaCare plan.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  35. hoop..

    so .. fix the real problem.

    end the system that ties availability of reasonably affordable health care insurance to employment..
    because most people become uninsured when they become unemployed
    and when you can't pay for housing or food, you can't pay for high deductible insurance either.

    equability doesn't come when those who have resources can spend their health care dollars in the most advantageous way hoop..
    it comes when everyone is covered at a basic level at a minimum cost to all.

    our current system isn't going to provide that..

    condemning at least half our population to an early death because you don't like the current system isn't going to save you much either... in fact, it might cost you more.

    emergency medicine is far more expensive even in the short run than a long run of preventative medicine..

    and... preventative medicine can return citizens to gainful employment... making them taxpayers.

    of course, i and too many others to count have already explained this to you
    and you ignore every word we have to say.

    when you want to have a conversation hoop...
    let me know.

    right now the only response to IS is IS NOT

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  36. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    JoB - actually I have heard you. Basic preventative care is very cost effective and I have no problem with making this type of care universally available; with co-pays. Where I think we differ is what is the level of universal care and what is an equitable way to pay for the care. People who smoke, are (cannot say it; but I was weigh over and lost it through diligent focus) need to pay more than those that are neither. This is a fairness issue!

    Basic health care is cost effective. However many cancer treatments are very very expensive with low probability of success. Severely pre-mature babies are horrendously expensive. And many people at the end choose treatment that extends their life a few months at great expense versus hospice care. My mom has the green card that states DO NOT RESUSCITATE and she is fully insured.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  37. PangolinPie
    Member Profile

    PangolinPie

    Could be that THIS is part of the problem too:
    http://i.imgur.com/zZoFP.jpg
    That's the bill issued to a guy who was in an accident and had a 4-day hospital stay. $125,991.11 was the total. Now tell me with a straight face that the guy should have had that much in savings!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  38. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    PangolinPie - NO that is what insurance is for!

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  39. hoop

    i have insurance
    and do not resuscitate orders
    so?

    it was the right choice for me..
    i hope it's the right choice for your mom.

    but, it was our choice.
    not yours

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  40. PangoliniPie

    my brother suffered a collapsed lung in Israel
    he was in the hospital for 4 days

    the bill? $16,000

    $16,000 versus $126,000

    does anyone really believe the medical care in the United States is THAT much better?

    Excessive costs aren't less excessive when covered by insurance

    a 10% deductible would still have left someone insured in America paying almost as much out of pocket as the entire bill in Israel..
    a 20% co-pay? you could buy a car for that.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  41. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    JoB - yes do not resuscitate is a personal choice. but people who do not purchase insurance have also made a choice that should be do not resuscitate. i do not want to interfere one iota in another persons personal choice as long as that person is paying; but if they are relying on taxpayers then they do not have the right to foist cost onto future generations.

    and JoB after the deductible is paid insurance kicks in. and how much of the bill is the hospital simply cost shifting from patients who did not pay?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  42. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    Just to be clear, Hooper, is this what you're saying?

    "I'd rather someone else die so that I don't have to pay higher taxes."

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  43. hoop

    "how much of the bill is the hospital simply cost shifting from patients who did not pay?"

    a better question would be how much of the cost of the high end equipment that attracts well insured patients to a medical institution is paid for by the less well insured patient who simply needs basic hospitalization?

    and of course.. how much of that bill goes to how many profit centers?

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  44. hooper1961
    Member Profile

    worldcitizen - people who choose not to buy insurance made the decision and i do not want to foist the cost onto future generations

    job - post #42 has some validity with how much is a reasonable return on capital.

    i think we all agree the existing system is too expensive and needs to be fixed. what is the best most equitable way to fix the system is a valid question. obamacare is not a good answer.

    a system that totally socializes the cost is not equitable (smokers and people who are (cannot say) need to pay more. And those that use services more need to pay more (co-pays). And there are many highly expensive procedures (some cancer treatment for example) that should not be included in basic coverages.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  45. WorldCitizen
    Member Profile

    zgh2676

    Wow.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  46. skeeter
    Member Profile

    Hooper I usually agree with you, but on this topic I disagree. Conceptually, I think you are correct. People should be free to make decisions and live (or die) with the consequences. Ideally each individual in society figures out what level of risk he can assume and purchase insurance for whatever level of coverage is needed to keep him/her healthy and financially solvent if something bad happens. A classic example is car insurance. If I have enough money in the bank to buy a new car, I can cancel the comprehensive/collision on my car to save insurance money. If I do *not* have enough money in the bank to buy a new car, I better keep insurance on my existing car so that I will be able to buy a new car if someone steals my car.

    However…

    If just one person in the country is in need of medical care but does not have medical insurance, then we have a problem. A big problem. A potentially very expensive problem. Maybe the person doesn’t have medical care because he is poor. Maybe because he is irresponsible. Maybe because he lost his job. Maybe because he just has other things he wants to spend his money on – housing, vacations, dinner out, etc. The problem is that *regardless* of why he/she doesn’t have medical coverage, he is now society’s problem. Why? Because our society has decided we will not let him die in the street. We will provide care for him. Ultimately, someone else will pay for his/her medical services because nothing in life is free. If the patient is not paying for the care then someone else is.

    So unless we are ready to let uninsured people die in the street, we’re going to need some mix of laws and taxes and charity care to service the uninsured.

    The Republican presidential debates were interesting. One question posed to the candidates was something like this: “A man walks into a hospital in dire need of medical care. He doesn’t have insurance. What should we do?” None of the candidates had a thoughtful answer. And that is pretty much why I support the ACA. Because no one else has a better answer.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  47. Lindsey
    Member Profile

    Lindsey

    @worldcitizen, not only that, but he's advocating that even people with insurance shouldn't be treated if their outcomes aren't what he deems good enough. Like in post #36, where he basically is saying that very premature babies and older people with inoperable cancers be left to die so he can save some money, theoretically. Pretty sure that puts him squarely in the "heartless troll" category and his posts should be treated that way. There's no responding to this garbage.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  48. Skeeter, I am pretty sure hoop is arguing for allowing those darn people that don't buy insurance to die on the street. Because they deserve it. Because there are affordable options out there for all working people to buy policies. According to him.

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  49. Just to be clear, Hooper, is this what you're saying?

    "I'd rather someone else die so that I don't have to pay higher taxes."

    That's exactly what he's been saying for months, if not years.

    It reeks of a cleansing of society, to rid it of the ill, weak, and less fortunate.....

    Mike

    Posted 1 year ago #         
  50. well, Hoop, I chose to not purchase health insurance, I suppose, because the choice was eith pay rent and buy food, or buy expensive health insurance. Does this mean I should just go off and suffer because of it? You know, me with having had cancer, and kidney failure, and open heart surgery, etc. Should I have just been denied? No soup for you? Is that what you're saying? I made one choice that you don't agree with so I'm just expendable? Sub-human?

    Posted 1 year ago #         

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