YOU DON'T HAVE TO STOP FOR A SCHOOL BUS IF…

[Carson]

quoting wikepedia in court is like just writing the law yourself…because you can. You might as well drop that second link.

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[metrognome]

not sure what the point of this post is … just because the law requires a driver to stop at certain times doesn’t mean a driver is prohibited from stopping other times if the situation requires it. All drivers need to be aware of what is going on around them, including a need to stop quickly if another driver, bicyclist, pedestrian does something unexpected. That’s why good defensive drivers constantly scan mirrors, watch for brake lights, etc. and anticipate what’s ahead that they may not yet be able to see. So, was there a specific situation that caused a problem?

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[redblack]

you have to stop for a school bus on an undivided street when the red lights on the bus are flashing. period. opposing traffic on undivided streets has to stop, too; even if it’s a 4-lane street like 35th avenue SW.

and i am assuming “undivided” includes roadways like fauntleroy. i’m uncertain about roadways divided by a center turn lane instead of a physical median, but i would stop for a bus on fauntleroy.

yellow lights – just like traffic signals – mean slow down and watch for kiddies. there probably aren’t any in danger if the driver has the yellow lights on, but slowing down is never the wrong answer.

metrognome: that’s actually my biggest rant about SUV’s. i drive a small car, and if i’m behind a suburban, i have to back off at least 3 car lengths or ride the fog line to see traffic beyond the car in front of me. which is kind of an obsession with me. e.g. if the driver in front of me isn’t paying attention and rear-ends someone, my choices become limited really quickly. i want to know what’s happening at least 3 cars ahead, and preferably a half-mile ahead.

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[metrognome]

boy, if you ever want to duplicate the head-spinning scene from ‘The Exorcist’, try researching something like this in state law …

to boil it down, you always have to stop for a school bus with the STOP sign deployed and red light(s) flashing if you are approaching from the rear until such time as the bus starts moving or the sign/alarm are deactivated.

If you are approaching from the opposite direction, you are required to stop UNLESS:

– the highway/street is ‘divided into separate roadways’ (‘by leaving an intervening space or by a physical barrier or clearly indicated dividing section or by a median island not less than 18 inches wide formed either by solid yellow pavement markings or by a yellow crosshatching between two solid yellow lines so installed as to control vehicular traffic’), or

– there are more than 3 ‘marked traffic lanes’.

I expected to find a brochure on this topic on the SPD or WSP or WA Traffic Safety Commission websites but no luck. The only resource I found was the Dept. of Licensing Drivers Guide:

“You must stop for a school bus that is stopped with its red lights flashing whether it is on your side of the road, the opposite side of the road or at an intersection you are approaching. You are not required to stop for a school bus with red lights flashing when the stopped

school bus is traveling in the opposite direction and the roadway:

– has three or more marked traffic lanes,

– is separated by a median, or

– is separated by a physical barrier.

After the school bus red lights have stopped flashing, watch for children along the side of the road and do not proceed until they have completely left the roadway.”

http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/driverguide.pdf (printed p. 42)

I don’t think you are required to stop on Fauntleroy as there is a center turn lane (I assume this is an ‘intervening space’ but maybe not) dividing the two traffic lanes or on 35th, which has 4 lanes but no center separator.

Of course, you would be required to stop if a student appears to be crossing the street. Not sure what the DOL manual means by ‘intersection you are approaching’; does this mean cross streets?

It probably would not be illegal if you slowed down considerably or stopped on Fauntleroy anyway just to be safe, esp. if you did so in a way that gives following drivers fair warning rather than just jamming on the brakes for no apparent reason, causing the driver behind you to spill their hot coffee and drop their cell phone.

Please note that I am not an attorney and this should not be construed as legal advice or even as a correct interpretation of state laws that have been cobbled together and amended over decades without any coherent effort to conform them. After this, I’m pretty sure I won’t drive anywhere if it is near school start or stop times.

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[redblack]

at the risk of discouraging you from driving during rush hour (or a career in jurisprudence) metrognome, i read those rules to say that both directions have to stop on both 35th SW and fauntleroy, since there is no physical barrier, intervening space (non-pavement? prevents vehicular travel?), or an 18-inch yellow line – like the one on MLK/SR 900 between tukwila and renton.

the recurring term “3 lanes of traffic” sure is ambiguous, though. are those three lanes in the same direction? somehow, i think so.

btw, i once dropped an i-pod into hot coffee while driving, which i saw as a “teachable moment.”

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[DP]

So you are required to stop coming from the opposite direction unless . . .

. . . the street is divided into separate roadways [with a] physical barrier or clearly indicated dividing section or by a median island not less than 18 inches wide . . .

etc.

etc.

etc.

Please make sure you’re safely parked before getting out of your vehicle to measure the width of the median/dividing line/barrier . . . etc. etc. etc.

Once you have verified that you may legally do so, return to your vehicle, start the engine, and proceed to pass.

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[MargL]

Fast-forward to about 2:36 for a video example of what Wash State Patrol considers a “3 or more lane” roadway where it’s OK for traffic not to stop when heading in the opposite direction.

No divider and one of the lanes may be a one or 2-way turn lane.

So, if you’re on 35th or Fauntleroy and traveling in the opposite direction – you don’t have to stop.

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[metrognome]

well, I had a nice reply almost finished and did the blog equivalent of dropping my ipod into my coffee and lost it. in the meantime, dp and margl posted, so I am gonna get a real cup of coffee and ponder further rebuttal…

okay, I’m back. MargL, nice job on finding the video; wish they had made it easy to find on the WSP site. Pretty much ends the need for further discussion.

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[CMP]

I try to leave for work before school buses are out on the roads so I may be wrong on this…but, I thought (and swear I’ve observed) that not all school buses use their flashing red lights on a consistent basis. Sometimes they just do regular yellow lights, which don’t require drivers to stop. My interpretation is that if the stop sign swings out on the driver’s side of the bus, then all traffic has to stop.

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[Carson]

Since the OP never bothered to actually explain what the issue was, we are left to just guess. I would wonder why anyone that approached a school bus that was stopped at anything other than a stop sign or stop light would ever try and pass with anything but caution, or pass at all. Don’t you assume its dropping off or picking up children?

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[MargL]

I looked this up last year because I ran into the exact problem being debated.

On 35th, heading northbound, when a bus heading south stopped mid-block in the opposite direction with red lights and stop-sign out. Traffic heading north stopped abruptly while I sat there shouting to the drivers in front of me “You don’t have to STOP!” So, I can imagine just what prompted the original post.

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[Carson]

MargL,

But why wouldn’t you stop if you knew children might be running across the street? Do we need laws for common sense? I know, we do, dumb question..

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[KBear]

Besides, how long does a school bus typically hold up traffic? A minute at the most? And we’re talking about opposite direction of travel, so it’s not like you’re trapped for multiple stops. This sounds like a rant in search of a problem.

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[MargL]

Welllllll…. The -law- says: You don’t have to stop when there are 3 or more lanes of traffic and you’re going in the opposite direction.

Washington State Patrol says:

It is your -responsibility- to know when you can and cannot pass a school bus.

If I know the law and don’t -expect- to have to stop but the guy in front of me does not know the law and does stop suddenly then you might run into conflict, and potentially rear-ending accidents. (yeah yeah, don’t go off on “but you shouldn’t be following so close” or “there’s a bus you should be looking out anyway” yadda). Accidents happen.

Should folks slow down in general on 35th? Yes. Should they be watching out for school buses and kids? Yes.

Should they stop when going in the opposite direction in a 3 or more lane roadway just because it’s a good idea? No, because the law says that traffic doesn’t stop.

These days buses have a wire bar across the front that flips out to keep kids from crossing in front of the bus.

If the kids run cross the street mid-block after the bus has moved on then they are jaywalking and chances are traffic has already started moving because the bus is gone.

It’s also the kids’ responsibility to know when and where it is safe or not safe to cross the street.

And parents, teachers and bus drivers should be reminding the kids to look both ways, only cross at intersections, make sure the drivers see you… shoulda coulda woulda.

I don’t think the OP was a rant, it was a plea for all drivers to take responsibility for knowing the rules of the road.

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[MB]

I’m with you 100% MargL. And no, it’s not always a minute at the most. Often times buses wait and wait and wait. I get it, they have to in order to make sure everyone is seated, deal with behavior problems, etc (that is important of course)…so if the law says I can legally pass as long as I’m in the opposite direction (which would mean I should be able to see if children need to cross) and there are no children trying to cross, what exactly am I waiting for? Nothing, unless the person in front of me doesn’t know the law. I’m pretty sure the original poster and MargL are not saying we should all start running down kids who just got off the bus so we don’t have to wait. I’m all for waiting, if there is a reason for it. To me, that’s what sounds like common sense. It’s what was taught in the driver’s ed class I took 12 years ago, it’s how I drive AND I have never plowed (or even almost plowed) through a group of kiddos. I’ve often wondered if a ton of people skipped that day of class or something.

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[MB]

Not to mention how many people around here apparently missed the day when they teach you how to properly navigate a 4 way stop and to turn your blinker on BEFORE you are in the midst of turning…these are amazing concepts, more people should give em a whirl.

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[redblack]

i’ll concede the law to margL, but i’ll just note that in the midwestern town where i’m from, there was a rural u.s. highway (two lanes each direction) that bore signs saying that all 4 lanes must stop when the red lights flashed.

i understand that it’s a different state, different circumstances, and different laws. but no matter where i’ve lived, i’ve always assumed that kids might run across 4 lanes to get to the opposite side when they get off of a bus. never having seen this addressed in the driving exams, i’ve always erred on the side of caution. but evidently that’s not the case in washington.

and believe me, i don’t drive like a shrinking violet; but i do concentrate, exercise caution, and try to expect the unexpected.

onto MB’s point about turning: similarly, waiting until the light turns green to put on your left blinker is stupid to the point of looking intentionally malevolent. so is nearly coming to a stop when turning right.

it might be time for a driving habits/laws thread to clear up some misconceptions.

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[create1212]

It was probably me two days ago holding up traffic when I saw the stop sign pop out from the bus; I understand that the sign says “stop when lights blinking”; however, as other posters have pointed out, children are involved, and I didn’t want to take any chances. Now I know what the law says. I am just glad that whoever was blasting their car horns at me to go didn’t decide to speed around me as I have seen other drivers do in other situations.

I learn so much from the blog….;)

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[The Velvet Bulldog]

Read the beginning of this thread before heading out yesterday. I was going north on Delridge near Youngstown Community Center; a school bus going south was stopped with the red lights flashing. I couldn’t remember, “Am I supposed to stop?” so I erred on the side of caution and stopped. And watched two cars, in succession, zoom out from behind the school bus and go around it. Un-freaking-believable.

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[minderella]

i am the original post-er on this topic and would add that there was nothing earth shattering to prompt me to post. no rants (although it did crack me up that some responders automatically jump to that conclusion…give people the benefit of the doubt…as i’m sure you would appreciate shown to you).

just something interesting that i observe while driving on school days and thought would be ‘educational’ since i wasn’t sure about the law until i had to take the written test when i moved to washington a few years ago.

enjoy the sun!

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[Author]

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