Home › Forums › Politics › Yeah, Let's Replace the Public School System, With Those Great Charter Schools!
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August 8, 2012 at 3:00 pm #604304
miwsParticipantAugust 8, 2012 at 6:11 pm #766109
JoBParticipanthere’s the rub
it all sounds really good..
elevated test scores and all
until you begin to realize that one of these things is not like the others…
charter schools are taking public money to provide private educations..
in most cases to kids whose parents can afford the tuition for private schools.
and they take that money directly out of the budgets of public schools
and they do so with very little public oversight
funding charter schools is not the way to improve public schools
August 8, 2012 at 6:33 pm #766110
skeeterParticipantJoB raises an interesting question. Who attends charter schools? Kids who were in private schools? Or kids who were in public schools?
Example: City has 100 children. Public school funding is $1,000,000.
Before charter schools, 80 students attend public school and 20 attend private school. So each student attending public school is afforded $12,500 of tax revenue ($1,000,000 divided by 80) and the children attending private school are afforded $0 of tax revenue – the parents pay tuition.
Now throw in a charter school. Do any of the 80 public students switch to charter? I have no idea. Do all 20 from private switch to charter? I have no idea.
In a worst case scenario, all 20 from private would switch to charter. That means the $1,000,000 of school funding must now be split 100 ways, not 80. So funding per student would be $10,000 ($1,000,000 divided by 100.) So I can see why the left-leaning folks would not like charter schools. It re-allocates tax dollars and gives some educational funding for students whose parents are currently not availing themselves of public education dollars for their children.
I’m still torn, though. Even if a few of the public school students were able to switch to charter and have a better educational experience, it seems to me it would be worth it. Until poor children can attend the same schools that wealthy children can attend, I can’t see how we’ll have education equality.
August 8, 2012 at 6:48 pm #766111
JoBParticipantskeeter..
do you think that public schools should be defunded so that a few poor children have the opportunity to attend the same schools that wealthy children attend on your tax dollar?
because, as i see it, in a nutshell, that is the question
August 8, 2012 at 6:53 pm #766112
JoBParticipantbtw.. before you think that i am against all charter schools.. i want to disclose that i am close personal friends with a woman who founded a charter school for bright but disruptive kids in another state that was both incredibly successful and a benefit to the local school district.
i do know that a charter school can be a blessing…
but.. and there is always a qualifier isn’t there…
the same mechanism that allowed her to create a school that was a benefit both to the children it served and to the school district
allows special interests to create publicly funded schools with very private agendas with little or no oversight…
and unfortunately, as far as i can tell…
that is the current trend:(
August 8, 2012 at 7:20 pm #766113
skeeterParticipantThat’s a good question JoB (#4). I’m on the fence and undecided. I think there is a compelling argument that giving poor children the opportunity to attend the same schools as wealthy children could be a good thing.
On a bigger scale, though, I’m still not convinced that more education money equals better education. Or less education money equals not as good education. Part of me thinks that it is the parent, not the school, that will determine if the child gets a good education.
I’m a new parent myself and really excited to see how this works.
August 8, 2012 at 8:06 pm #766114
AndyParticipantYou got it, Skeeter. The debate is always going to be about money, because that’s the one tangible, quantifiable thing that a fight can be waged over. At the meetings, at the ballot box, in the internet forums, everyone will be fighting over where the money should go, and how much, and from where.
In the mean time, money can’t buy a student’s interest. Money can’t buy a teacher’s enthusiasm. But an endless fight over money can certainly make a jaded, cynical mess of an otherwise useful teacher.
Students? Yep, that’s up to us, the parents. I’m a fairly new one, too, and I figure my job is to raise good children. I then have to do my homework and try to find them schools with teachers who realize that there is no amount of money that can make them better at teaching.
August 8, 2012 at 9:53 pm #766115
JoBParticipantAndy..
money can buy school supplies, books, updated libraries, computer access, better qualified teachers, etc…
when you cut funding for public education,
bottom line, you affect quality.
skeeter..
how much are you willing to bet that you will always have the funds to pay for private education for your children…
remember.. charter schools don’t have to accept your child.. no matter how bright.
August 8, 2012 at 10:35 pm #766116
AndyParticipantJoB,
Perfectly happy to see schools getting enough money to keep them equipped with current technology, etc. To keep them in line with someone’s definition of competitive. But the heart of education is the teacher and the student. Neither of which can be improved by money. We’ve all had teachers that were fantastic and would have still been fantastic even if their pay had been cut in half, and teachers who were terrible and would have still been terrible if their pay had been doubled.
It’s a problem of humans, not finances. Of character, not cash. The notion of “good” in a teacher is certainly a hard thing to legislate and collect taxes on, and you won’t see me saying that teachers need to make less money or schools need to be given less money. But unless we get better human beings in the system (and in the friggin’ seats), the money’s just window dressing.
August 8, 2012 at 10:40 pm #766117
skeeterParticipantJoB it is very possible that we won’t be able to afford private education. So I’m willing to bet nothing. That’s why charter schools are another possible solution – they are paid for with tax dollars and require no tuition payment from parents. And yes, I’m aware not every charter school has excess capacity and willingness to let our child attend. It is very likely our girl won’t be able to attend a charter school even if they are around. And who knows? Maybe public school will be a better option for us anyway.
August 8, 2012 at 10:43 pm #766118
dhgParticipantHow are charter schools doing elsewhere in the country? Let’s see…. Teaching that the Loch Ness Monster exists and is proof that dinosaurs are modern as the earth is merely 6,000 years old.
August 8, 2012 at 10:45 pm #766119
socamrParticipantSkeeter,
I think the challenge is that there is no evidence that charter schools *on the whole* actually provide a better educational experience than public schools. *Some* might do so, such as the school that JoB referenced, but others might not; similarly *some* public schools do a great job (my family has been very happy) while others do not.
For me the key is the accountability question. With public schools, ultimately we know who is accountable and we can do something; there is a school superintendent, a school board and even a state superintendent. With charter schools, there is no control once the money is paid. For me that’s a deal breaker: if a school is being funded with tax dollars, it should be accountable in some fashion to the tax payers.
August 8, 2012 at 11:10 pm #766120
skeeterParticipantSocamr, good point. I agree that accountability to the taxpayers is problematic. However… there is also accountability to the parents. I suspect that a charter school that does not meet the expectations of parents will see enrollment numbers fall pretty fast. And my guess is that charter schools with no enrollment will get no funding.
August 8, 2012 at 11:28 pm #766121
kootchmanMemberJob I do not understand how you constantly misrepresent charter schools.
First they ARE public schools. They have to select at random under a lottery system. The only ones who might not qualify are those that won’t buy in to the mission. It may be 6 day a week classes , and extended school year… and a more rigorous academic regime. It is not money taken away from public schools.. they ARE public schools.
Skeeter nailed it. Charter schools live and breath on the attendance …. if they don’t deliver, students don’t come. The lose the “charter”.
August 8, 2012 at 11:45 pm #766122
kootchmanMemberOnce again…
“JoB raises an interesting question. Who attends charter schools? Kids who were in private schools? Or kids who were in public schools?”
wouldn’t that be a success? Kids in private schools vying to get into public schools . Think carefully… the reason the kids are NOT in public schools is they can get a better education elsewhere. Seattle School District would be deeeeelighted to have 20,000 private school kids back in the system… that’s state revenue. Also… with skin in the public system., affluent parents are less grudging come referendum time. when we support both a private and a public school system out of necessity…. money gets tight. And no… I do not care as much that your child gets a great education… I care that mine does then I worry about yours. I did my social duty…. a well educated, literate, responsible young adult with a world of choices and options. That was our job…we fulfilled our social contract.
August 9, 2012 at 12:04 am #766123
miwsParticipantI do not care as much that your child gets a great education… I care that mine does then I worry about yours. I did my social duty…. a well educated, literate, responsible young adult….
So, again, everything in life has to be a competition. Winners and losers. Survival of the fittest.
Then, when the “losers” can’t make it in the world, they sure as hell better not be sucking off the public teat!
And you don’t care about the other people’s kids? Just your own?
Mike
August 9, 2012 at 1:19 am #766124
JoBParticipantkootchman..
charter schools for the most part do not have to comply with the same educational requirements and/or responsibilities as the regular public schools.
they can reject children based upon the criteria of their “mission” even after that child has enrolled and attended classes.
the only thing public about charter schools is that they are funded with public education dollars.
stop blowing smoke kootch…
August 9, 2012 at 6:21 am #766125
kootchmanMemberSomewhere there has to be incubators of new ideas, new ways, new methods, Charter schools are that testing bed. The only smoke is doing more of the same, under the same rules, and expecting more money will change the outcome. Horse turds are still horse turds, not matter how much you pay for them, Take the charter schools that have achieved phenomenal results that public education couldn’t achieve. More of the same, only more expensive is cowardly… IMO….. most children thrive with the innovation of charter schools… irrelevant educational requirements and responsibiliites should be terminated. Real change is too scary? No miws I don’t care as much about your kids as I do mine. However, in the aggregate, that self interest is what moves the collective down the road. I didn;t say I care nothing about others… but my job are the faces that sit down to dinner at my table….do the same for yours and we all benefit.
August 9, 2012 at 1:52 pm #766126
miwsParticipantOkay, so you didn’t say that you don’t care about others’ kids, and yeah, I guess that’s natural.
But, still, rereading that part of your post, it gives the impression that if other people’s kids get a mediocre, or bad education, “Oh, well. Not my problem.”
If I had kids, they would be the most important thing in the world to me, and getting a great education would be hugely important, and I’d be involved in working with the teachers and school, as much as I’d be capable of.
But, I’d also realize the importance of other kids getting a great education, and would do what I could to help in that, whether it was because they are lacking in certain skills, or have parents or guardians that are unable, or unwilling, to be part of their education.
Your comments still sound like you’re coming form a competitive and exclusive angle.
And yeah, I know “It’s a competitive world out there, dammit! Gotta prepare ’em for that!“
Yup, it sure is.
But maybe we need to re-think that element of our society…..
Mike
August 9, 2012 at 2:19 pm #766127
JanSParticipantin my himble opinion, it’s not about the money we throw at them. It’s about the parents, the children, and the teachers that love to teach, and will, no matter what the pay is. We tend to forget that in these discussions. No amount of money thrown at a bad teacher will help. But we mustn’t discount the many wonderful teachers in the public school systems that exist now, and will continue to exist whether charter schools take a foothold or not. That dedication is being overlooked because some people feel that “public schools” are failing. Not always. Maybe, just maybe, we need to renew our committment to the public schools just as strongly as you all want charter schools. Support and respect for these teachers instead of tossing them to the curb.No, you would just rather trash the whole thing, if I’m reading these posts correctly.
August 9, 2012 at 3:06 pm #766128
JoBParticipantkootch..
” Take the charter schools that have achieved phenomenal results that public education couldn’t achieve.”
apples to oranges kootch
give those charter schools the same student populations and same restrictions as regular public schools and you would see those stats plummet.
the only way public schools can mirror those incubators is to send a very large percentage of their students home without even attempting to educate them.
if you want to evaluate reforms for public schools, you have to try those reforms within the general public school system.
August 9, 2012 at 4:05 pm #766129
miwsParticipantAugust 9, 2012 at 7:13 pm #766130
kootchmanMemberI have linked you to charter schools that deal exclusively with the worst cases, with kids two or more grades behind, in the heart of Bed Stuy and Harlem… and you still insist Charter Schools are “selective” of the best. The best are already gone, They left the publics schools 20 years ago. But do ignore the facts that don’t fit an agenda… but when levy time comes up.. and the voters go ‘not a dime for more of the same”… be not surprised. we are done subsidizing what doesn’t work…. and is incapable of reform without the white hot torch of clarity… loss of funding, the only thing any government agency responds to. miws.. you will find whatever you are pre-disposed to find. It is a competitive world? Indeed. The fittest do better.. is that something new? Those “restrictions” are union work rules kiddo. Tenure for life, …. I want those teachers who have their cell phones on and available to students after school, that take their rotating turns for academic mentoring until 6 PM… and on Saturdays… that take the mantra “whatever it takes” not how much can I make? Charter schools are public schools, under the supervision of public school boards. They color out of the lines … as centers of innovation do. Jan, when they act as professionals, they don’t break public laws and strike, or have sick outs at the start of the school year… and stop acting as herd animals, they can probably re-earn their credentials as “professionals”. Charter schools puts pressure on all of them to improve. Liberals have a visceral dislike for competition because there are no rewards in it for those that aren’t competitive.
August 9, 2012 at 7:17 pm #766131
JanSParticipantand…show me that those teachers don’t exist in public schools…show me.. You can’t. But you’re willing to throw every public school teacher under the bus as “not good”…and that’s where you’re just wrong. You won’t even consider that there are great teachers in the public school system because you have an agenda..pure and simple..
August 9, 2012 at 7:21 pm #766132
kootchmanMemberNo I am not. I am saying that given competition, the good ones will rise to the challenge. I know there are great teachers in the public school system… and the funny thing is… the great ones line up to be employed at charter schools where the feel effective and challenged and appreciated. The bottom caste is very content with things as they are. Charter schools are public schools and are staffed with public school teachers getting great results… pure and simple.
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