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January 14, 2009 at 8:19 pm #654584
danielleSMemberThanks JoB. Got it. And I’ve sent out PMs to those who wanted me to.
January 14, 2009 at 9:28 pm #654585
alki_2008ParticipantOn page 2 (comment#48 for most), it was initially GHO that suggested organizing meeting details via PM. I can’t say for certain that’s why danielleS opted for PM’s, but I don’t think we should view the PM route as being sinister. :-)
I also had an initial hesitation about the meetings being exclusive to whites, but if the point is to have whites discuss their views about other ethnicities…then it makes sense to be white-only. I’ve always thought it interesting that it’s okay for blacks, asians, hispanics to have their own exclusive things…but if something’s exclusively for whites, then it’s “racist”. I’m just sayin’. :-P
Good luck danielleS.
January 14, 2009 at 9:48 pm #654586
GenHillOneParticipantThanks for pointing that out, alki2008 – yes, please don’t hold my suggestion over danielleS. I didn’t mean, and don’t think she meant, it to sound sinister. It was only a logistical suggestion since the thread seemed to be taking a beating.
January 14, 2009 at 9:54 pm #654587
ZenguyParticipantRacism is hardly limited to white people. Blacks are even racist towards other blacks, they used the “paper bag test” in the South. If you were lighter than a paper bag you were better than someone darker than the bag.
January 14, 2009 at 10:27 pm #654588
danielleSMemberZenguy: In “Distancing Behaviors Often Used by White People”, James Elder and Bruce Irons explain that “As Whites work on the issue of racism, certain avoidance or distancing behaviors invariably arise. To really understand and deal with racism entails experiencing various levels of personal questioning, discomfort, and bewilderment about personal responsibility.
Racism- Racial prejudice and discrimination that are supported by institutional power and authority. The critical element that differentiates racism from prejudice and discrimination is the use of institutional power and authority to support prejudices and enforce discriminatory behaviors in systematic ways with far-reaching outcomes and effects. In the United States, racism is based on an ideology of White (European) supremacy and is used to the advantantage of White people and the disadvantage of people of color.
So basicly, racism is power + prejudice. This defintion precludes people of color from being racist because they have limited social power in a White-dominated society. (People of color may be prejudiced, but they are not racist.)
I know it is difficult coming to terms with the reality that racism is a White problem. It triggers the difficulty White people have accepting the degree of privilege that the color of their skin brings. It was once said, “Asking White people to become aware of their privilege as Whites seems to be like asking fish to become aware of water; it is all around us and yet very difficult to see.”
January 14, 2009 at 11:01 pm #654589
ToddinWestwoodMemberWOW. If this is the biggest problem in all of your lives, I envy you.
Can we meet to discuss envy? I am sure that is wrong too.
January 14, 2009 at 11:06 pm #654590
lyntleMemberZenguy
“racism is hardly limited to white people”
that particular type of racism involves the exact same slighting they’re trying to address here.
the lighter skinned blacks were favored back in the day. likely to have mixed ancestors giving them a slight “mental” leg up with owners and even within their race and in society. this still goes on today for those same reasons as to seem better within their peer groups and outside. it’s also not limited within their groups. you don’t think whites are more comfortable with lighter skinned peops over darker skinned peops. it’s a mentality that has not been completely filtered out within the race yet but sub-consciously the behavior is still perpetuated by all still today.
January 14, 2009 at 11:21 pm #654591
ZenguyParticipantRacism is EVERYONE’S problem!
January 14, 2009 at 11:41 pm #654592
lyntleMemberJanuary 14, 2009 at 11:55 pm #654593
FullTiltParticipantCan we meet to discuss envy?
I would say yes, but I would never show up, I am just to lazy. Maybe if there was a meet up for sloth.
January 14, 2009 at 11:55 pm #654594
Kayleigh2MemberNot sure who said it was the biggest problem in their lives?
For some people, this issue is close to their heart–either because of personal experience, a general concern for social justice, seeing someone they love hurt…or for some of us, maybe “genetic memory” and living with the legacy of the pain of the past.
I don’t see how mocking and belittling the efforts of others helps anything at all.
January 15, 2009 at 12:02 am #654595
ZenguyParticipantJust because we disagree does not mean you have to keep your opinions to yourself. I enjoy a good discussion where people can voice their opinions and share their points of view, sometimes I even learn stuff.
Although I am (mostly) white, I have been discriminated against many times and it is something I work hard at not doing to others. I have seen discrimination from all races and would disagree that you have to have power to do it. Heck, even my grandmother thinks that men do things better than women…in her defense she is 89.
As they sang in Avenue Q “everyone’s a little bit racist”.
January 15, 2009 at 12:54 am #654596
AnonymousInactive*you don’t think whites are more comfortable with lighter skinned peops over darker skinned peops?*
This is a definition of racism? And if we don’t recognize it we’re displaying *Distancing Behaviors Often Used by White People*. Do people really sit around and think up this stuff?
Like is always more comfortable with like. I am more comfortable with lesbians. Yet most of my friends are straight. I am more comfortable with liberals, yet my closest friend is a conservative. I am more comfortable with other atheists, yet I know very few. I am more comfortable with women, but I have more male friends.
I am more comfortable with those near my same income bracket. I am more comfortable with people who understand physical limitations. I am more comfortable in places I’ve been to before. I am more comfortable with people who obsessively love animals.
I am more comfortable with my race, ethnic background or whatever you want to call it, because it is what I am and know. What you are failing to address, is being more comfortable with one thing only means I am less comfortable with something else. It doesn’t mean I don’t like the other, or think less of the other, or don’t want to be around the other, or experience the other. It just fricken means I am more familiar with some things over others.
IMO, it is beyond ridiculous to equate comfort with equality, or to consider these things as hateful or prejudiced. People align themselves by race, religion, education, age, size, abilities. For cripes sake, there have been arguments on here about who is a REAL West Seattleite.
I personally wish people would worry about tangible racism. Like home loan disparity. Or places like Prez Bush’s new neighborhood that didn’t allow a black person to buy property until the year 2000. Or not getting an interview because your name sounds *funny*. Or law enforcement profiling.
I just don’t see owning my *white privilege* as being any part of the solution. Any more than owning a specific religion would stop religious wars. Or owning a gender would stop divorce and domestic violence.
January 15, 2009 at 2:32 am #654597
JoBParticipantI think that there are a lot of semantics being used to dance around an issue…
I will agree completely that i am less comfortable in a room full of blacks.. or men.. or lesbians for that matter… but my lack of comfort when i find myself the odd person in the room doesn’t give me the right to perpetuate denying others benefits of any kind just because i would be uncomfortable if i was in the minority…
in fact… the very fact that i can recognize that minority status would make me uncomfortable is the reason why i should go out of my way to make those around me with a minority status more comfortable…
beyond that.. why trash the ideas of those who find this subject relevant.. or trash someone who is actually trying to find a solution whether you personally approve of her method or not?
this issue won’t go away just because some of you think it doesn’t exist..
in fact, if we live long enough, those of us with pale skin are about to find out what it is like to be a minority in our own country and we might find ourselves in a better bargaining position if we set a good example now….
that’s worth thinking about, isn’t it….
January 15, 2009 at 9:35 am #654598
alki_2008Participant“So basicly, racism is power + prejudice…(People of color may be prejudiced, but they are not racist.)”
Doesn’t this mean that racism can’t be eliminated? White people may become less ‘prejudiced’, but will always be ‘racist’ until the country is controlled by non-whites? But then the race that takes over power will be the racists. Hhmmm…
January 15, 2009 at 10:07 am #654599
JimmyGMemberThanks so much for this post/topic.
With all of the navel-gazing involved I actually located a hunk of lint in my belly button.
January 15, 2009 at 3:29 pm #654600
lyntleMemberJanuary 15, 2009 at 6:04 pm #654601
JoBParticipantalki-2008
lyntle has a point… if abuse of power is the standard that is set… and racism is abuse of power… then, yes.. if you live that long you should run for cover if you have pale skin…
however… one of the mandates for change in the current presidential election was to end or at least minimize the abuse of power.
i am not so naive as to think that will happen in one or even two terms of this presidency.. but if the demographics are right… we had best do more than hope that it happens within this generation.
and that’s basic survival 101…
abuse of power impacts far more than racism… it is the central feature of wealth inequality..
it’s past time we stopped squabbling about who controls the abuse of power in our nation’s capital and start talking about controlling the abuse of power…
jimmyg…
if it took navel-gazing for you to locate that hunk of lint in your belly button you have been neglecting yourself far too long ;~>
and you were looking in the wrong place to find the source of attitudes anyway…
for that you use a mirror…
which is another polite way of suggesting you examine the issue before you trivialize the topic…
January 15, 2009 at 6:08 pm #654602
alki_2008Participantlyntle: “only if they think like you alki_2008!
it would make you “right” “
What?! lyntle…thanks for calling me a racist. But how can I be when I’m not white? Your assumptions and generalizations about me are just as misguided as people’s stereotypes of different races.
Thanks for NOT contributing to an environment of healthy “discussion”…your comments are personal attacks, which few posters in this thread have actually done. I guess looking at things from both sides to better flesh out the details about an issue is “wrong”.
Look, here’s the point (which maybe wasn’t clearly communicated) of my earlier comment…if racism = power + prejudice, AND prejudices exist within and between all races, then the formula is basically racism = power. If that’s the case, then no number of meetings will even end racism…racism will just be shifted from one race to another. Sooo, then power would be the real issue (as JoB mentioned). JoB, I get what you’re saying and don’t completely disagree.
January 15, 2009 at 8:09 pm #654603
AnonymousInactiveDitto to alki 2008 and Zenguy!
The OP has been extremely clear (IMO) about what sort of get-together they are looking for. I’m glad that danielle has found a group here.
The issue of racism is so interesting because everyone has their own thoughts and opinions. It has the potential of making for very interesting conversation. The problem with discussing racism here is that if you do NOT agree with everyone else’s opinions, you are wrong. That sort of behavior is not condusive to intelligent, thought-provoking discussion (IMO)
January 15, 2009 at 9:02 pm #654604
ZenguyParticipantIn my opinion racism = insecurity. I do not feel good about myself, so I need to put you down so I feel superior. This is similar behavior to a playground bully.
January 15, 2009 at 9:09 pm #654605
JoBParticipantcolor is just a convenient scapegoat issue…
one that is used by those in power to subjugate us all.
you are either the target or so busy blaming the target that you don’t pay attention to what those in power are doing and how those decisions ultimately affect you…
those decisions create great insecurity.. which becomes increasingly apparent in an economic downturn like this one.
racist behavior is often grounded in insecurity…
but we would all do better to look for the source of that insecurity than blame others for making us feel that way.
If this gets bad enough.. most of us will be in this very shaky boat together..
and anyone in a life raft will tell you that your odds of surviving increase with cooperation.
January 15, 2009 at 9:21 pm #654606
ZenguyParticipantThe toughest part is standing up and saying “no, this is not right” when you see it happen. If we say nothing we are basically agreeing with the behavior.
January 15, 2009 at 9:25 pm #654607
JoBParticipanti couldn’t agree more…
January 15, 2009 at 10:19 pm #654608
rykriteMemberI read the beginning of this thread and don’t have time to review everything since I last checked in but I thought you (general) might be interested in this NYT link:
http://community.nytimes.com/article/comments/2009/01/15/fashion/15race.html
The question was about “Is it easier to talk about race now that Obama is becoming president?” and there are pages of responses. Relevant to this talk, I think.
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