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February 23, 2015 at 4:10 pm #816823
JoBParticipantI don’t know which was more inspiring..
Patricia Arquette’s speech last night at the Oscars or Meryl Steep’s reaction
and then there is this performance by Matt Damon that is once again floating through cyberspace..
http://www.upworthy.com/one-of-matt-damons-finest-performances-was-never-in-theaters
and in all fairness. Clint Eastwood is spouting off these days too..
but someone else can link to him ;0
February 23, 2015 at 6:43 pm #822099
SmittyParticipantOh my gosh…….that is the EXACT reason I stopped watching about 2 decades ago.
The fact that these self-important people think I really give a rip what they think is laughable.
They need to get over themselves.
Talk about a cocoon.
*Love their movies though! :~)
February 23, 2015 at 10:29 pm #822100
JanSParticipantI do not care what people do for a living…but I respect anyone who feels strongly enough about something to be vocal about it. We all need to speak up about inequalities, inequities, etc., no matter who we are. Them being a “celebrity” does not make them less caring, less compassionate, less human than you or me, smitty. I would expect the same from you, to stand up and speak, start a conversation, about something you believe in. I’d expect that of all of us on here.
Her speech also mentioned this… http://givelove.org/
how can that be wrong to do ?
February 23, 2015 at 11:33 pm #822101
JoBParticipantSmitty..
apparently a lot of people on both sides of the aisle care what Patricia Arquette said..
the reactions are still rolling in..
February 24, 2015 at 1:01 am #822102
SmittyParticipant“apparently a lot of people on both sides of the aisle care what Patricia Arquette said..
the reactions are still rolling in..”
A lot of people think women make $0.77 on the dollar for the same job, with the same experience and the same education too. That doesn’t mean they’re right.
February 24, 2015 at 1:18 am #822103
waynsterParticipantOh boy Smitty you just don’t get it do you about equal pay for equal work….You may not like what they say or stand for…. the thing is they bring out the strife of man kind things that a lot of people turn there heads away from or have a blind eye too MS, suicide, equality, Alzheimer, racism and even a short about a veterans hotline just name a few you can say what you want theses are the things that are killing people of all ages and races……
February 24, 2015 at 3:45 am #822104
JanSParticipantso, smitty…are you approving of the gentleman who last week called women “a lesser cut of meat”? or of the opinion of 2 Supreme court judges who said that there is no Equal Rights Amendment in the Constitution because the founders of this country did not mean to include women?
And when women are getting paid less for doing the same job (be it .77 on the dollar or something else), do you give a damn and speak out against it? When healthcare, maternity care, birth control, etc, are taken away from women by our Congress, do you think that’s wrong? Old men telling women what to do with their bodies and health decisions, and telling lies about those things…do you care? Women shamed in public places(even though it’s legal) because they breastfeed openly…do you agree with that?
Just curious, of course…
February 24, 2015 at 4:38 pm #822105
JoBParticipantsmitty..
you are very lucky not to have first hand knowledge of the gender bias against women.
any women in your family know better..
even if they don’t choose to hurt your feelings by informing you
the simple truth is that the ERA was not ratified which means that any state can draft law which discriminates against women on the basis of their gender.
all abortion restrictions discriminate against women on the basis of their gender …. men’s bodies won’t support pregnancy.
the current trend towards restricting women’s clothing is another example of gender based discrimination.
and that wage gap.. it does exist even if you consider equal education and experience.
the Supreme Court basically gutted the wage discrimination law by putting unrealistic time limits on the ability to file in 2007.
The Lilly Ledbetter Equal Pay act remedied the time restriction but in practice hasn’t made it easier for women filing claims.. though it has greatly increased the income for trial lawyers.
Every single bit of this is public record Smitty.. you can choose not to believe it.. but your choice doesn’t change the reality for women.
February 24, 2015 at 4:40 pm #822106
JoBParticipantcelebrities voices matter because young people listen to them… and become inspired
February 24, 2015 at 9:36 pm #822107
SmittyParticipantWhoa, whoa, whoa!
All I am saying is that the .77/dollar line is just that. A line. It’s been disproven. The .77/dollar line is for ALL jobs women currently hold vs ALL jobs that men currently hold. Men and woman migrate toward different jobs.
When comparing similar jobs with similar education levels and similar experience(years) the difference is .97/dollar. Still not right for sure, but a far cry from .77.
The fact that the administration and the media repeat this over, and over and over is bad enough. I don’t need some actor using the biggest stage in the world to promote the lie yet again.
Whew!
February 25, 2015 at 12:02 am #822108
TanDLParticipantWall Street Journal article from yesterday, with charts from Dept of Labor statistics:
February 25, 2015 at 12:53 am #822109
SmittyParticipantThat’s a perfect example, TanDL.
“Legal” is the category? They need to dig deeper. Is this all attorneys or does it include paralegals and admin assistants? Paralegals and admins skew toward woman and attorneys skew toward men. So, the “mix” will obviously result in a pay disparity when lumped together under “legal”.
Here is one – from the Department of Labor(2009) that explains that when looking at similar jobs (not similar fields, mind you)
and adjusting for education and experience, the difference is between 4.8 and 7.1. Not GOOD, but certainly not the 23% we keep hearing.
A quote:
“A greater percentage of women than men tend to work part-time. Part-time work tends to
pay less than full-time work.
A greater percentage of women than men tend to leave the labor force for child birth, child
care and elder care. Some of the wage gap is explained by the percentage of women who
were not in the labor force during previous years, the age of women, and the number of
children in the home.
1 2
Women, especially working mothers, tend to value “family friendly” workplace policies
more than men. Some of the wage gap is explained by industry and occupation, particularly,
the percentage of women who work in the industry and occupation. “
http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
February 25, 2015 at 2:23 am #822110
JTBParticipantSmitty, yes a perfect example of the challenges involved in discussing complex issues whether one is a celebrity, an economist, or an ordinary working person.
The Consad report you reference was published in 2008 using data from 1997 through 2007. The report in the WSJ article used figures from one year, 2014. It would be interesting to track the changes in wages that have taken place for both men and women in the years following the Great Recession and lead us to now. I suspect that might raise even more questions about the relevance today of the research you cite. Continuing from where you end a comment from the introductions, the authors go on to express some reservations of the limits of their work, saying “Factors, such as work experience and job tenure, require data that describe the behavior of individual workers over extended time periods. The longitudinal data bases that contain such information include too few workers, however, to support adequate analysis of factors like occupation and industry.”
So here we are, the workforce has changed significantly since 2007, employment practices have also changed (permtemp has entered the lexicon as a shortened way of saying “long-term temporary employee” for one) and we are to believe gender inequality in compensation doesn’t warrant the full attention of everyone interested in the ability of this economy to provide a decent living for anyone who wants to work? I appreciate at least no one here has said, so far, that women should be happy to have jobs at all much less whining about getting paid the same as men.
So I applaud your willingness to take a firm stance on the “Not GOOD” side of the debate about gender disparity. I hope you strive to help others work to make it “ALL GOOD” as I suspect that’s going to be a challenge for some time to come.
February 25, 2015 at 3:07 am #822111
SmittyParticipantMy point is that the .77/dollar is bogus. The 2014 study lumps people into fields (legal) and is NOT a fair way to compare like-for-like jobs. It’s almost as useless as taking all male workers and comparing them to all female workers and coming up with the .77 figure – which is EXACTLY what that figure represents. It is irrelevant but repeated so often it’s now conventional wisdom. Do a water cooler poll and I bet 90% say “oh, 77%!”
The study I linked to was scientific and accounted for position, experience and education and the difference is much, much smaller. I doubt that has changed much in 6 years.
February 25, 2015 at 3:11 am #822112
JoBParticipantbut female executives don’t even make 77%
yet.. when you look at performance… companies headed by a female CEO tend to outperform companies headed by a male CEO
so what’s up with that?
February 25, 2015 at 3:41 am #822113
Jd seattleParticipantHas ADP ever posted figures in regards to this subject? Seems they would have some reliable data points as opposed to various studies that obtain salary figures from who knows where.
February 25, 2015 at 3:43 am #822114
JTBParticipantSmitty, I thought your point was that regardless of the actual disparity, it is “Not GOOD.” Is that not how you think and feel about this issue?
Since the period cited in the Consad report feature mixed increases and declines in disparity from year to year, I remain skeptical that it’s safe to assume there has been no change in the subsequent six years which by and large featured wage stagnation. I’m sure you are familiar with the numerous articles of late pointing out that female employees in general are less disposed to press for raises than their male counterparts. (Back to the “I’m so happy to just have a job” theme.) Point being, how do you think that all adds up? It hasn’t exactly been a minor socioeconomic event we’ve been going through.
There is a significant portion of the wage gap that remains “unexplained” after known factors are accounted for (I’ve seen studies claiming as much as 40%). Many consider that to stem from pure discrimination. In any case, my point remains that it seems preferable to support efforts to close the wage gap rather than quibble about the size of it.
February 25, 2015 at 4:36 am #822115
SmittyParticipant“In any case, my point remains that it seems preferable to support efforts to close the wage gap rather than quibble about the size of it.”
Agree. So hopefully they stop spouting the .77/dollar lie – but they won’t – because it is such a huge disparity. And incorrect.
February 25, 2015 at 4:44 am #822116
SmittyParticipant“but female executives don’t even make 77%
yet.. when you look at performance… companies headed by a female CEO tend to outperform companies headed by a male CEO
so what’s up with that?”
JoB, that’s another perfect example. CEO’s of “what”? CEO of IBM or CEO of Joe’s Art Store? It’s another ludicrous grouping. If you were to say that Carly Fiorina makes 77% of what Michael Dell makes then maybe we can talk. Again – for the last time because I am not making it clear – when you adjust for SIMILAR jobs (not titles, not fields) and for experience (years on the job) and for education, the difference is nowhere near the 77% that is widely now taken as fact and spewed by everyone from the administration to the news media to actors.
Peace!
February 25, 2015 at 4:44 am #822117
singularnameParticipantThe .77 is not bogus and in my experience was worse. As someone who managed in the corporate minefield, there wasn’t one time when my male directs’ salaries were revealed to me that they were not *drastically* higher than my own and their female peers. This observation takes into account education, experience, and the then-current parameters of performance, project impact, etc. The wage gap is real. Deny it if you want–it just makes one stupid to do so.
But what really got me here … I don’t watch this kiss-the-rich-people BS because … not one woman (or man) on that stage or nominated (and I’ll just leave it there to be accurate) gives a crappette what the “average” woman earns. If they did, they’d be in a $100 dress and give the other $9,900 to … an average working woman. Always amazed at the reverence us little people give these narcissists.
February 25, 2015 at 4:51 am #822118
SmittyParticipantGot it. Disregard the Department of Labor study that equalizes for the oft mentioned variables and claims the real disparity is between 5 and 7% and go with singularnames real-world experience.
Discussion over. Thread closed.
February 25, 2015 at 4:54 am #822119
singularnameParticipantExcellent. Glad I got through to you.
February 26, 2015 at 12:39 am #822120
JoBParticipantSmitty.. CEOs in the study you cited.
February 26, 2015 at 2:15 pm #822121
anonymeParticipantI don’t usually pay much heed to celebrity causes, but Meryl Streep is a class act. I agree with JoB; I loved her response. The other aspect of unequal pay that is rarely addressed is the fact that professions dominated by women are nearly always paid less. Quibbling about the exact percentage of inequality is a meaningless diversion in my book.
February 26, 2015 at 4:32 pm #822122
SmittyParticipant“Quibbling about the exact percentage of inequality is a meaningless diversion in my book”
Agree completely, which is why they need to stop spouting the .77 lie.
Important cause, no need for the media, government and celebrities to (grossly) exaggerate, because the end result is that it turns people like me away.
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