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February 28, 2015 at 6:16 pm #822148
Jd seattleParticipantYes2ws – we all have acknowledged this is happening. Everyone is going to have their own real wold experiences. We have to look at the big numbers because a 1 person data pool does not paint the full picture. It’s unfortunate what singulars has experienced and that is what needs to be dealt with. But if we took her experience alone and applied it to the entire population it would be a “drastically” lower number.
I’ll say it one last time because I imagine it’s getting old. We have two wage gaps, one being .77 and one being .95 or so. We know how each one is derived. Which one do you think represents inequality?
February 28, 2015 at 6:17 pm #822149
yes2wsParticipantI decided to scroll back to see where mention of the .77 first entered this thread. Interesting that it was from Post 5.
February 28, 2015 at 6:19 pm #822150
yes2wsParticipantJd, I respectfully disagree. [Based on real world experiences of the women in my life.]
February 28, 2015 at 6:19 pm #822151
SmittyParticipantMike, I’ll take the blame for stearing this (slightly) off topic.
I get so frustrated (as do others, I am sure) when poltical discussions come up and nothing gets resolved and no minds are changed.
So, I said to myself, “self” this is a great opportunity to test your theory that internet message boards are a waste of time and an act of futility.
In this case I attempted to boil it down to ONE set of facts concerning this topic. Just one – that people could acknowledge before entering the debate.
The often repeated statement that women make 77 cents on the dollar for what men make (The White House tweeted it out after the Oscar speech that started this entire discussion).
I posted FACTS that show (from the Department of Labor mind you – not Fox, not MSNBC, etc) that the 77 cents on the dollar figure is TRUE, but is representative of ALL working women compared to ALL working men. When adjusted for CHOICES(careers) that people make and “like for like” jobs are compared based on eduction and experience the difference is closer to 5 cents, not 23. A big difference.
Now, that lead to discussion on suffrage, and historical biases and “my experience”,and even me not having a clue because I am not female, etc. All of which are VERY important to the topic. So (by my own doing) I failed to get people to agree on just one piece of this issue. Just one. Based on facts and math! No joy.
I think I have answered my own question about the futility of message board arguments!
February 28, 2015 at 6:26 pm #822152
yes2wsParticipantI don’t read enough of the WS forum threads to know if we’re dealing with a known troll here, (Post 5), but it certainly appears that way. Waste of time; lesson learned.
February 28, 2015 at 6:27 pm #822153
Jd seattleParticipantyes2ws- what are we in disagreement about?
February 28, 2015 at 6:29 pm #822154
yes2wsParticipantJd..
But if we took her (Singular’s) experience alone and applied it to the entire population it would be a “drastically” lower number.
This.
February 28, 2015 at 6:36 pm #822155
Jd seattleParticipantyes2ws – I’m not the one that came up with .77 number. That was our government. It’s all there in black and white along with how the number was calculated. I think your disagreement is with them.
February 28, 2015 at 6:42 pm #822156
yes2wsParticipantNope; my disagreement is with Poster 5 interjecting the .77 in an attempt to experiment with the discussion.
What I was referring to with you was your thinking Singular’s experience is way off from the norm.
February 28, 2015 at 6:49 pm #822157
JoBParticipantJD
“Because what JoB is advocating would be the equivalent of the women walking in with one gold chain (let’s say a teacher). The man walks in with two gold chains (let’s say a doctor), are we supposed to be outraged the man gets more money for his two chains than the women does for her one.”
nope.. i didn’t say that at all.. not even anything like that.
putting words in my mouth and then rebutting them still doesn’t answer the question.
ignorance is no excuse… nor is dismissing the data because it is sourced by a group advocating for women…
“Women are almost half of the workforce. They are the equal, if not main, breadwinner in four out of ten families. They receive more college and graduate degrees than men. Yet, on average, women continue to earn considerably less than men. In 2013, female full-time workers made only 78 cents for every dollar earned by men, a gender wage gap of 22 percent. Women, on average, earn less than men in virtually every single occupation for which there is sufficient earnings data for both men and women to calculate an earnings ratio.”
“Pay equity may be affected by the segregation of jobs by gender and other factors. IWPR’s research shows that, irrespective of the level of qualification, jobs predominantly done by women pay less on average than jobs predominantly done by men.”
http://www.iwpr.org/initiatives/pay-equity-and-discrimination
this link connects to a pdf that contains both recent and illuminating information.
February 28, 2015 at 7:03 pm #822158
Jd seattleParticipantJob – Yes, there is a .77 wage gap. But if you want to continue to ignore the obviouse facts that are used to come up with that number, you are not going to get anywhere with anyone that is willing to look at the whole picture. Your right, ignorance is no excuse.
Yes2ws- I haven’t had that experience with the women in my life. Do you see how that one person data pool works now? Some women experience it. Some don’t. We combine all those figures and come up with statistics. It’s the best we have.
February 28, 2015 at 7:16 pm #822159
yes2wsParticipantNope, again. I really don’t care about the statistics. I care about the fact that it’s happening and it’s not okay.
February 28, 2015 at 7:25 pm #822160
Jd seattleParticipantJob – ” IWPR’s research shows that, irrespective of the level of qualification, jobs predominantly done by women pay less on average than jobs predominantly done by men.”
Exactly, women know how much they can make in the field they are pursuing. There are women in the male predominated fields right? What’s stopping more women from perusing the higher paid carrers?
February 28, 2015 at 7:34 pm #822161
JoBParticipantJD.. it’s obvious you didn’t link to that pdf..
because if you had you would have realized that even in jobs that are predominantly held by women, men make more.
i can’t wait to hear you rationalize that away..
February 28, 2015 at 7:36 pm #822162
miwsParticipantI really don’t care about the statistics. I care about the fact that it’s happening and it’s not okay.
And that nutshells my point, and thoughts on this topic.
Being so fixated on one statistic, seems to be trying to distract from the bigger issue.
Mike
February 28, 2015 at 7:44 pm #822163
JoBParticipantJD..
a few other minor points JD…
are you aware that in studies done on hiring and promotion bias women are not treated equally?
are you aware that the gender pay gap exists even among women who do not have children?
are you aware the gender pay gap is smallest at the beginning of a woman’s working career but increases substantially by the age of 35?
are you are aware that a good portion of the female wage earners in America didn’t have the kind of choices you think they should have made when they started their working careers?
are you aware that women of color make even less than white women?
this isn’t about the choices women make
but about the choices they have available to them
February 28, 2015 at 7:48 pm #822164
Jd seattleParticipantJoB – yes, and after accounting for a few other minor factors that leaves us with the REAL wage gap. The one I’ve been talking about this entire time.
February 28, 2015 at 8:34 pm #822165
JanSParticipantthe underlying thing I’m hearing is…the gap isn’t so big afterall, so it’s not important, why are women making a big deal about it? Like oh, it’s only 7-8 %, so..be happy with what you are getting, and work harder (you know, like men do), and you can get what we get, too.
You will argue about that, of course..” No, that’s not what we’re saying”…But that’s the hidden thing I hear in these arguments.
It’s still a man’s world ..big sigh
February 28, 2015 at 9:14 pm #822166
JoBParticipantJD..
the real wage gap is that women who account for about half of the workforce and who are getting college degrees at a greater rate than men these days still make 78 cents for every dollar men make (2013 figures) and that the numbers haven’t changed much in a decade.
manipulating that number and cherry picking statistics doesn’t change that fact.
the truth is men make more even in professions dominated by women.
you can’t change that either.
cherry picking the stats to make gender wage difference appear less serious won’t alter the consequences…
elderly women in this country are facing destitution due to greatly reduced lifetime earnings which have translated into greatly reduced social security payments which translates directly into an increasing poverty.
telling yourself it was their choice isn’t going to change the outcome.
as long as you believe this is happening to women because of their own personal choices you aren’t addressing the problem at all.
you can’t address it without acknowledging it.
February 28, 2015 at 9:41 pm #822167
Jd seattleParticipantCherry picking stats huh? Ok. I think we’ve beat this to death. Let’s enjoy the rest of the weekend.
February 28, 2015 at 10:20 pm #822168
SmittyParticipantFebruary 28, 2015 at 10:21 pm #822169
Jd seattleParticipantI blame you Smitty ;)
March 1, 2015 at 3:21 am #822170
JoBParticipantSmitty..
do you think the women who make so little that they bring the average wage down to 78% would be tickled to have the discrimination they face so easily dismissed?
not likely.
that stat stands for a reason.
March 1, 2015 at 4:13 am #822171
Jd seattleParticipantJoB – I have to ask. If you could with a snap of your fingers affect change, what would be your solutions to fix the .77 wage gap?
March 1, 2015 at 6:04 am #822172
yes2wsParticipantI don’t think it would be a simple snap of the fingers. I think, first, we would need to educate those with flippant mindsets. In addition, we would need to help them learn compassion. However, gauging by the blatant flippancy toward those here in this thread who have been discriminated against, I’d say we still have a long way to go. I mean really; to state that one agrees with a poster in this very thread that she has faced discrimination, but then continue to joke around about that very discrimination is just plain rude and hardly signifies any hope that things are going to get better for the working woman anytime soon.
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