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March 3, 2015 at 4:19 am #822223
Jd seattleParticipantLOL I don’t know about that but I will gladly accept another challenge and support some other women owned businesses by going out of my way to do so.
March 3, 2015 at 4:10 pm #822224
JoBParticipantSmitty..
the women retiring today have been in the job force since they were old enough to work.
March 3, 2015 at 4:11 pm #822225
JoBParticipantJd..
i can’t see why you would find data from the US government suspect… because that was my source.
and btw.. it compared median incomes to median incomes in comparable fields..
March 3, 2015 at 4:13 pm #822226
JoBParticipantsinglularname
“I’m at an age where I look back and see I’ve fought a good and fair and communicative “fight” on behalf of myself and other women. It didn’t get me or anyone else too far. Sexism against women is RAMPANT in this world. I’m now officially radical, with no apologies if I’m a hypocrite at times. If that bothers anyone, keep your wives, mothers, and daughters away from me–if you can.”
me too.
March 3, 2015 at 4:21 pm #822227
SmittyParticipant“the women retiring today have been in the job force since they were old enough to work.”
And. the women retiring today make up a much smaller percentage of total retirees than women who will retire in 30 years – and more importantly – in higher paying fields.
More women graduating college means more women in executive (read:higher paying) roles over time.
The “mix” will change to where more women become doctors and fewer become nurses. By using simple math this will increase the “average” women’s salary the .77 represents.
March 3, 2015 at 4:24 pm #822228
JoBParticipantFYI..
for those who think that sexism doesn’t exist..
have you ever parked outside any of our big tech companies where the big dollars are made here in Seattle and watched the flow of people in and out.
i have had the pleasure of doing so at hubby’s place of work on more than one occasion.. so i can testify to what i have seen… a steady string of mostly youngish male workers.
it’s not that there are no qualified female applicants.. it’s that they mostly don’t fit into the culture and they don’t stay long.
this is one workplace where I don’t attend the parties. i did once.. once was enough. Hubby still goes to the afterwork parties … but he doesn’t stay long.
hubby’s gray and the lifestyle that goes with it makes him feel like a relic there…
even though he is well respected for the work he does and well liked.
culture matters
March 3, 2015 at 5:24 pm #822229
SmittyParticipant“for those who think that sexism doesn’t exist..”
I don’t think you’ll find many takers in this thread. If any.
March 3, 2015 at 8:26 pm #822230
JanSParticipantJd…go get that pedicure…you’ll love it…and I bet, do it again :) Just make sure the business is woman owned :D
March 3, 2015 at 10:20 pm #822231
JoBParticipantSmitty..
at the current rate.. taking all those young women making better career choices.. it is still expected to take another century to reach income parity.
that’s not the next generation.. or the one after that.. or the one after that.. or ….
March 3, 2015 at 10:35 pm #822232
Jd seattleParticipantJanS – How does one with extremely ticklish feet do with pedicures? I fear I may leave with an assault charge after accidentally kicking someone in the face :)
March 4, 2015 at 12:57 am #822233
JanSParticipantlolol…tell them you’re ticklish.In my practice, I always ask if their feet are ticklish before I touch them. I had one client who would literally kick out, so never touched his feet. You learn to go deep and slow, and it’s less ticklish. YMMV, of course ;-)
speaking of massage practice…in this biz, men sometimes have a problem with being treated equally, esp. by women. One once told me that she would feel like she was cheating on her husband, when, in fact, massage is only sexual in the receiver, I think.And guys hesitate to get massage from a guy because…homophobia :( . I feel bad for men who attempt to have a solo practice, and have to get over that hurdle. (of course, recently there have been a couple of guys on the eastside who were caught going a bit too far, and had to go to court….that doesn’t help any..sigh) Inequality is inequality no matter who it is…and should be remedied. :)
March 4, 2015 at 12:59 am #822234
JTBParticipantThe Mask You Live In- a documentary this Sunday exploring how boys are sold particular ideas about masculinity, what it means to be a man, and how to inhabit their bodies and treat others’ bodies. Good parenting resource. Trailer in link.
March 4, 2015 at 1:01 am #822235
JanSParticipantthanks, JTB…daughter has a 10 month old…I’ll share this with her…
March 4, 2015 at 2:39 am #822236
SmittyParticipantI’m all for mani-pedis!
March 4, 2015 at 3:52 am #822237
Jd seattleParticipantJanS – that is some pretty deep subconscious stuff going on in those situations. Correcting it in our society seems like a daunting task. If even possible without generations of re-teaching ourselves “how things should be”. I think a hefty chunk of the prejudic against women stem from the subconscious stuff we have no idea we are even guilty of. I found this study that is quite interesting. Apparently women do it to each other as well.
March 4, 2015 at 5:07 pm #822238
wakefloodParticipantSeems to have an analog in race and was identified a while ago via the Harvard Implicit Association process.
And yes, it would seem that societal-level change requires significant effort to modify. Starts with recognition, of course. But then, the hard work begins.
But really, we’re in a weird place as a society with regards to all bias-based issues. We’ve got a plurality of folks who simply don’t want to admit there’s an issue with any of it – race, gender, sexual preference, etc. Then you have the folks who think its a problem but have no idea how to address it either at a personal OR a societal level. And let’s face it, if you’re not ready to change at a personal level, the odds are pretty high that you DON’T want something structural put in place at a societal level to attempt to enforce behavior modification.
Then you have folks who absolutely think change is required and have varying degrees of success in convincing the rest of society to act. Gay marriage is a template for that change over relatively short spans BUT that also took lots of folks on BOTH sides of the aisle with economic and political power to engineer.
Weird times to be sure.
March 5, 2015 at 2:29 pm #822239
JoBParticipantsometimes all we need is a reminder..
the ERA has not yet been ratified…
but it still could be
March 5, 2015 at 7:59 pm #822240
SmittyParticipant” Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show women overall earn 82.1 percent of what men do.”
At least they use the term “overall”. Better than most.
March 6, 2015 at 12:14 am #822241
JoBParticipantSmitty..
while you are busy obsessing about a number you can find acceptable ..
the ERA has not been ratified and women in these United States do not have equal protection under the law.
If that number were reversed.. would you feel ok about men making 82% of what women make..
because they are men …
i don’t think so.
March 6, 2015 at 12:40 am #822242
SmittyParticipant“If that number were reversed.. would you feel ok about men making 82% of what women make..”
Oh no, this thread was dying!
Two answers.
1) NO – If men were getting paid less for the SAME job “just for being men”. Target worker, doctor, nurse, teacher, programmer, whatever.
2) YES – If the number represented the entire workforce and reflected the decision of men and women to enter different fields. A nurse vs a doctor, as just one example.
March 6, 2015 at 9:26 am #822243
JanSParticipantwhat is so hard to understand about equal pay for equal work? What is this doctor vs. nurse crap? Has nothing to do with anything. It’s the male nurse vs. the female nurse, etc., etc…maybe I just don’t understand what you are trying to say in #2, Smitty…
March 6, 2015 at 2:39 pm #822244
Jd seattleParticipant– JanS, JoB, Smitty, I think we all agree what makes up the gender wage gap.
1 – more working men than women.
2 – average number of women in lower paying fields/careers.
3 – raw prejudice against women by employers/ potential employers whether it be conscious or unconscious.
Number 3 needs no debate. We have all agreed it is wrong and should not be tolerated.
So we are left with 1 and 2. Here’s where the discussion should focus.
1 – what are the reasons more men are working than women? Are those reasons unjust/prejudice?
2 – what are the reasons women tend to be in lower paying fields/careers? Are those reasons unjust/prejudice?
Smitty – none of us are getting anywhere with each other because you and I have been focusing on straight prejudice ie; a women getting paid less than a man when all factors are considered. JoB and JanS are focusing on why women on average are not making up those factors equally. I think that is where the useful discussion lies.
March 6, 2015 at 2:46 pm #822245
SmittyParticipantI’ll try and make it even simpler.
Assume the world consists of four working people. Two men. Two women.
Scenario #1:
The two men are doctors making 100K/year.
The two women are nurses and make $77K/year.
Women make 77% of what men make in this case. This is the statistic that is commonly thrown out to show gender bias.
Scenario #2:
All four (two men and two women) are ALL doctors.
The men make $100K/year.
The women make $77K/year.
Women make 77% of what men make in this case and is REAL wage discrimination.
No one is saying gender discrimination does not exist, just saying that the wage difference commonly referenced is using scenario #1 in their calculations to show that women are paid less “because they are women”. Using scenario #2 the number is closer to 5% (not good, but not 23%!).
Unless you are advocating that nurses should be paid equal to doctors or somehow society is “forcing” women into nursing and men to get PHDs. Then we have an entirely different problem.
March 6, 2015 at 3:13 pm #822246
JoBParticipantit’s not just about wages..
at the heart of this article you will find sexism at it’s worst…
http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2015/03/06/3629086/wikipedia-gamergate-war/
“The belief that women may pursue a career in computer science or software development if they feel like it, without being threatened with assault, rape, or murder and without endless public discussion of their sexual history,” Bernstein said. “This is a very weak definition of ‘feminist,’ but it’s one to which the sanctioned editors subscribe, and to which Gamergate’s supporters do not.””
the clincher.. in spite of the talk within the traditional feminist community.. this was a non-issue until written about on a male editor’s blog…
Men had to speak it for the greater intellectual community to take notice.
It can’t be spoken without acknowledgment..
March 6, 2015 at 3:15 pm #822247
JoBParticipantJd..
shame on you… discrimination is the last of the three factors you name and yet you suppose that we will all agree with your three part premise.
have you not read what we write?
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