Home › Forums › Open Discussion › What's a real man?
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March 30, 2013 at 4:52 pm #786779
JiggersMemberA real man stays home and cuddles with her and tells his friends to get lost.
March 30, 2013 at 6:49 pm #786780
JiggersMemberA real man sacrifices and takes her shopping on Sunday during football season while his buds are having fun watching the games. That is a real man.
March 31, 2013 at 2:38 am #786781
DBPMemberThis is a great question, Jiggers, but getting men to talk about it openly in a forum* like this is like inviting a bunch of strangers to talk about religion on a street corner.
The responses you’ll get are either going to be jokes, or they’re going to be like something you’d read on a Hallmark card. Neither one is very satisfying.
Even when men talk about this among themselves, far from the suspicious gaze of women, they can’t seem to get down to the heart of this question. So why is that? Why is it so hard for men to say what makes them men?
Do men themselves even know? I sometimes wonder. Maybe they don’t know they’re even allowed to think about it.
I was searching for an analogy to explain my take on this, and something came back to me.
I was traveling in New Zealand several years ago, and I observed large herds of domesticated deer grazing in open pasture land there. Strangely enough (as it seemed to me) the fences that enclose the pasture are cattle fences, low enough that the youngest deer could easily jump over.
So what was the trick? Were the deer ranchers using some kind of futuristic electric field to keep the deer in, I wondered. Had they bred deer that couldn’t jump?
I asked one of the natives, and she gave me the story. It’s an interesting one.
Deer were domesticated very recently in New Zealand. And they were domesticated with surprising ease, by use of a simple, ingenious strategy.
First, small corrals with high walls were built up in the mountains where the deer ran wild. Now the walls of these corrals needed to be, as I recall, at least twenty feet high, high enough so that even the strongest buck could not jump out. Next, wild deer were rounded up and herded into these corrals by horsemen, with an assist from helicopters.
Once in the corral, the deer were given a chance to settle down and were given plenty of good food and water. The corral walls were lowered incrementally over a period of weeks or months, so the deer could gradually get used to their new situation. Eventually, the corrals could be taken down entirely because, with plenty of food around, the deer didn’t see any point in leaving. They were then put out to pasture and acclimated to a routine of regular feeding at food stations. And they could munch as much grass as they wanted in between meals. Predators were kept away by dogs and hunters.
Ultimately the deer lost any conception of themselves as having once been wild things that had ever even wanted to venture beyond the confines of the pasture. And why would they? Life was good, with plenty of food and the pleasant companionship of other well-fed and happy deer.
* * * * * * * * * * *
So what does this have to do with men? Here’s what . . .
To know what it is to be a man, you have to know not only what you are now, but what you once were. And what you could be again, if only you wanted to be.
And that’s what I worry about with men now: The could be part.
The realm of “could be” is now as alien to all of us (men and women alike) as the mountain range beyond the fence is to those deer at pasture. The strength of their legs could easily take them right over it. But they stay inside anyway. Every last one of ‘em.
* * * * * * * * * *
Think about that, guys.
I’ll be writing more soon. And if this thread gets shut down here, for whatever reason, you’ll know where to find it.
–David
March 31, 2013 at 2:42 am #786782
JiggersMemberLMAOFF!
March 31, 2013 at 4:46 am #786783
JanSParticipantDBP…a question…do you think marriage has hurt or helped “men be real men”?
and are you accusing women of doing what you said to domesticate men? Or is it society in general, and has the same thing happened to women equally?
March 31, 2013 at 6:26 am #786784
SonomaParticipantJigger, please stop with the freakin’ stereotypes! Most women I know would much prefer their husbands to stay home with their buddies and watch football than accompany them shopping. Sheesh, it’s 2013, get with the program.
But thanks for initiating an interesting discussion!
March 31, 2013 at 9:00 am #786785
JoBParticipantunless you are shopping for them, i have found most men to be more hinderance than help when shopping..
March 31, 2013 at 9:15 am #786786
SonomaParticipantAbsolutely true, JoB. A real woman prefers to shop without her man. And a real man is capable of shopping for his own stuff, though it’s OK if he wants his woman mate to come along for advice!
March 31, 2013 at 3:28 pm #786787
JoBParticipantthat said.. one of my best shopping partners these days is a guy.. not the one i live with and not the stereotypical gay but a guy nevertheless who enjoys the process of shopping.
lest you think him not a real man… he will be more than happy to show you the kind of decorations from the very real wars he has fought for our nation that become real men bragging rights…
and if that fails he is willing to show you the error of your ways the old fashioned way..
on the school boy field of male bragging rights.
Can i let you in on a secret?
a real man cannot even be identified by the “package” he carries….
how we live our lives determines what we are.
In the end, we are all really what we profess to be…
no matter what anyone else thinks.
March 31, 2013 at 4:56 pm #786788
JiggersMemberPost #39 Lindsey is right on. She understands today’s man. I need to find a girl that is willing to go and work everyday and I can just stay at home and change diapers and can watch daytime soaps all day. I’m just a sperm donor anyways.
March 31, 2013 at 6:15 pm #786789
JoBParticipantApril 1, 2013 at 6:26 pm #786790
KenParticipantreal men..
Don’t give a rats patoot what any one else thinks.
Carries a purse if he needs one. Carries a gun in it if he thinks that is needed too.
Knows when he can fix something and when to call a pro.
When he gets old, chooses a cane based on its potential use for kinetic readjustment of machinery as well as knuckleheads.
And apparently responds to trolling :)
April 3, 2013 at 5:09 am #786791
DBPMemberHark!
(That’s Middle Ages for “Awright lissen up, guys!”)
OK now . . . Important!
The manly virtues I’m about to describe . . . . ?
They:
1) Don’t apply just to men. Women have all of them. Just generally not to the same extent, or in the same way.
2) Don’t apply equally to all men. Some guys might excel in one or two areas but need serious help in the others. That’s OK. You can still be in the drum circle.
Other guys might suck in all areas, but they’ve seen the light and are trying to do better, like me. That’s OK, too. Men who suck in all areas of manhood (but are trying) can still be in the drum circle.
However, if you suck at “all of the above” and don’t even care, then get out of the drum circle right now.
And give me the loincloth back, dude. It’s rented.
3) Are not all hard-wired. In other words, they could be learned behaviors rather than biological traits. For example, the bushmen of the Kalahari might admire just the opposite qualities in a bushmen man from what I’m describing here.
To which I say: Pfffftt!
Yeah: Pfffftt! Because we’re not bushmen of the Kalahari, are we?
No, we’re not.
[ . . . ]
And would anyone who IS a bushperson please leave the room now? You are not going to get anything out of tonight’s program.
* * * * * * * * * * *
OK, now that that’s settled, I’m going to tell you the five cardinal virtues of manhood. I will then go on, in tomorrow’s lecture, to give both affirmative and negative examples of each manly virtue I list.
They are as follows:
1) Courage
2) Leadership
3) Loyalty
4) Independence
5) Discipline
* * * * * * * * * *
Surprised the list is so short? So was I, friends. So was I.
You may be wondering: Where is compassion? Where is wisdom? –Aren’t those the qualities of a man, too?
–Indeed they are. But they are also the qualities of a woman. And besides that, the ways they can be expressed in either sex are so variable as to be impossible of separation by gender. Therefore, I cannot consider them to be distinguishing (that is, cardinal) virtues of manliness.
Women, of course, have their own set of cardinal virtues that they get to define without interference from men. And Hark: Women! Don’t butt in here, either. Man stuff is going on.
Somewhere in the terra incognita where the manly and womanly virtues intertwine lies the realm of fantasy: the mythical land of Ohh La La!
(Whatever the hell that means. I think it’s a brand of French condoms.)
April 3, 2013 at 5:15 am #786792
JanSParticipant1) Don’t apply just to men. Women have all of them. Just generally not to the same extent – ‘splain, DBP?
As far as I’m concerned, these traits also apply to women..
1) Courage
2) Leadership
3) Loyalty
4) Independence
5) Discipline
and men not interfere with women? Are you serious? lolol…
April 11, 2013 at 5:30 am #786793
DBPMemberI hope you’ll feel that the tonight’s lecture has been worth the wait.
If not, please send me a self-addressed, stamped envelope with $10, and I’ll return the envelope to you, minus the stamp.
* * * * * * * * * *
This post is gonna be all about the First Manly Virtue: Courage.
For a man, courage comes in three flavors.
1) Physical
2) Intellectual
3) Moral
It’s very unlikely for any one man to have all three of these in abundance. If he does, he’s probably got the other Virtues dialed in, too. But trust me, for the rest of us guys, if you’ve got any one of these solid, you’re good to go.
Think of it like you’re one of the poor kids and the neighbor people just offered to buy you an ice cream on a hot summer day.
You don’t ask what flavor is the ice cream.
* * * * * * * * * *
Physical Courage
About this I wanna say just one thing: Gotta get me some of that.
In short, I’m a coward. I’ve never run into a burning building or broken up a fight between two strangers, or done any of the things they give you medals for in the Army. I admire guys who can do that, though. But I can’t.
While I’ve never run from a fight, I’ve avoided them. When I was a kid, my older brother regularly pounded the crap out of me, because my dad was too good to get his hands dirty. But that was a beating, not a fight. There’s a difference.
Moving along . . .
* * * * * * * * * *
Intellectual Courage
This is the rarest form of courage, and also the hardest for guys to get a handle on, which sort of proves my point.
Intellectual courage is the courage to admit to yourself and everyone else that some idea you had about something or other was wrong. Admitting that you were wrong to other people is the easy part.
In the inferno that is intellectual cowardice, there are circles within circles. The outermost circle is where you can’t admit to yourself that you’re wrong about the facts. That’s sad, but it’s relatively easy to break out of.
The innermost circle is where you can’t admit to yourself that you’re wrong about everything, from the dinkiest little speck of dust all the way up to God (or the boundless Universe, if you prefer). And back again.
Being in the innermost circle is like being at the event horizon of a black hole. Since your view is so distorted, you can’t tell where you are or what’s coming next. You don’t even know you’re there until it’s too late. If you’re lucky, you’ll be smashed into eensy weensy itty bitty little pieces, and then you won’t have to worry about it anymore.
Most guys are lucky. I’m not.
* * * * * * * * * *
Moral Courage
Of the three flavors of courage, I’ve always found moral courage to be the most stirring. Conversely I’ve always found moral cowardice in a man to be the most disgraceful, unmanly thing.
Here’s what it’s about. To be morally courageous, you’ve gotta be willing to take a hit. A beating if necessary.
It could be a physical beating, or it could be an emotional one. It could be excruciating or almost painless. What kind of beating it turns out to be is not the real thing.
The real thing is the timing, because in this case, you’ll never know what kind of beating it is that you’re gonna get until after it’s over. All the way over.
Furthermore, to have moral courage, you’ve not only got to step up and take that beating, you’ve got to see it coming atcha from a long ways off, like a train coming down the tracks. Only you don’t know how big a train it is or whether it’s coming slow or fast. All you know is that you’ve heard the whistle blowing, and now you’ve got to step up on those tracks and look straight at that train, and know, with absolutely certainty, that you’re gonna get run over.
And sometimes, after the train rolls right over you, you might have to gotta pick yourself up by the pieces, put yourself back on those tracks and do it all over again.
Attention spans are limited, as is my time, so I’m going to give you a single shining example of moral courage and cross my fingers . . .
Martin Luther King
When he gave his final speech (“I’ve been to the Mountaintop”) Martin Luther King already knew for a certainty that he was going to be murdered. He didn’t know how, but he knew when: Soon.
Knowing who he was and what he did, I believe that this guy loved life more than anyone else in the room that night. Maybe more than anyone in the world. He was at the peak of his glory; he’d reached the Mountaintop and he could’ve rested there, assured that he could’ve taken in the view for a while and then trotted on down the other side to join up with the others. But instead of doing that, he chose to go back down and wait for the train, because he knew that by letting himself get run over hit he’d be helping his people get to the Promised Land sooner.
Many people, when they hear the Mountaintop speech, think this guy was speaking to the crowd or to the cameras. Or maybe to posterity.
But I’m here to tell you that’s wrong. This guy wasn’t speaking to nobody but God. And you can tell by the way he was talking that he knew God was listening. And if you compare King’s speech with the way Moses talked to God before he died, you’ll recognize it. Because it’s really the same speech. And that was intentional.
Well, I don’t know what will happen now. We’ve got some difficult days ahead. But it doesn’t matter with me now. Because I’ve been to the Mountaintop.
And I don’t mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I’m not concerned about that now. I just want to do God’s will. And He’s allowed me to go up to the Mountain. And I’ve looked over. And I’ve seen the Promised Land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people, will get to the Promised Land.
And I’m happy, tonight. I’m not worried about a thing. I’m not fearing any man. Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.
He was shot the next day.
April 11, 2013 at 5:35 am #786794
hammerheadParticipantDAAMMMNN DPD
Now I have to go to bed with that in my head. I think I might need another xanex.
DEEP
HH
April 11, 2013 at 1:46 pm #786795
alanrandolfParticipantTo me, a real man would mean a man who puts his wife and kids first. A man who loves his family and takes care of his family with love in his heart. A man who opens a door for a lady or takes her hand to help her up a step. A man who cherishes his girl and takes up for her and protects her from this sometimes ugly world. I know it’s all old fashioned but it sure would be nice.
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