The First Amendment

[JoB]

annie..

only half of Christians have that single modifying center..

the Catholic half.

and i am not sure that many christian sects recognize Catholics..

or Lutherans

as Christians.

maybe not Episcopalians

and certainly not Unitarians

heck..

i know some churches

where Methodists aren’t even considered Christians.

The fragmentation of Islam churches you describe is very similar to that of Christian religions.

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[Annie]

Right, JoB, I was just using the Pope as an example. Don’t Protestant churches have a central leader or a hierarchy of leaders?

So maybe fragmentation is also one of the many things that Christianity and Islam have in common.

By the way Frank Rich wrote an editorial about this – if I weren’t so tired, I’d find the link. I think I read it on Huffington Post but I’m not sure which newspaper he writes for. Some interesting history in it.

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[dobro]

Here’s the link. good article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/opinion/22rich.html?_r=1

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[HMC Rich]

It is reasonable to question what is going to be a major meeting place that will be 15 stories tall when the Imam looks at Shariah compliancy.

We were attacked by devout and extreme Muslims on 9/11. Is it not reasonable to ask questions? Most Americans who are not of the Islamic faith cannot completely understand all of the issues involved. I cannot. We are a nation of laws formed in the Judeo Christian ethic. We must follow the legality of it all properly.

Is this Cordoba House going to promote Shariah teachings? Its literature says so. Is it going to be a religious institution or a terrorist recruitment, indoctrination and training center. If so then the citizens have a right to be incensed about this center. If not then there is not anything to worry about.

Western compassion and Sharia law can and are at odds with each other. I do not want Shariah law to be above our laws. Shariah Law promotes a vicious anti-female code which orders death by stoning, promotes child marriage, decriminalizes abuse of women, and gives wives no rights in divorce, but it also explicitly recognizes the duty of all Muslims to wage Jihad against non-believers and promotes violence to achieve its goals. Most of us in the U.S. are infidels. We can only be somewhat equal if we become converts.

Like I said, I do not understand enough. Is the western style of living compatible with the many sides of Islam. Some Yes and some No. The moderate side of Islam was defeated in the 11th century.

Here is a link of a cleric that disliked Bush. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1175221/The-Muslim-cleric-blames-British-mosques-7-7-bombings-says-multiculturalism-disaster-throw-Islamic-fanatics-out.html

Here is a minority voice of Islam http://www.reformislam.org/

I also found this interesting on the history of Islamic Philosophy. You need to know Muslims use the Koran and the Hadith. Look them up and then look at this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Islamic_philosophy

It seems to me the old moderates were defeated by the more aggressive sects of Islam around the 11th century (give or take a century). This is part of the issue in our times. A moderate muslim in western view is in actuality a bad or non practicing muslim. But trying to pigeon hole all Islamic worshipers into a few groups would be disingenuous on my part.

There are a lot of questions still to be asked.

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[Ken]

Mutual excommunication of 1054 also happened in the 11th century, as the christians split into east and west.

Shall we order the three cathedrals at ground zero torn down?

Makes sense using the wingnut logic displayed here.

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[JoB]

HMCRich…

we have plenty of nuts here in the good old united states that have perpetrated terrorism in the name of Christ.

somehow i am guessing that if a church wants to build in those neighborhoods..

no-one is squawking.

and that’s a church.

this is a community center.

that passed New York’s extensive permit process without protest..

until a right wing nutjob got hold of it and made it the new patriotic cause.

I have looked through my constitution and i can’t find any reference to discrimination being ok if you are muslim and someone who professes to your religion has done something truly awful.

but i do find a reference to separation of church and state.

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[JoB]

annie..

no big honcho for the protestants…

maybe a lot of little honchos

but if a church doesn’t agree with them they just split off… and keep their name. it seems there is no licensing agreement involved in most of those loose organizations…

tho i think they can invalidate the credentials a pastor/reverend/preacher in some cases…

so you really do get a lot of little or not so little local churches where the preacher/pastor/reverend or the board of deacons really do set all policy.

and where.. btw.. they do indulge in religious wars.. condoning everything short of killing in the name of their cause… and that too if the circumstances warrant.. such as killing abortionists or those who visit or work in abortion clinics.

i will admit that most of the religious wars in churches here have centered on politics … supposed to be a no no for that tax exemption..

but when you are doing “gods” work……

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[dobro]

Ron Paul says something I agree with. I’m shocked, but in a good way.

PS I’m going to copy/paste his remarks rather than linking. If that is some violation of blog policy please delete and I’ll repost. I don’t believe there’s any copyright issue. Here ’tis…

“Is the controversy over building a mosque near ground zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery?

It has been said, “Nero fiddled while Rome burned.” Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are “fiddling while the economy burns.”

The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”

Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers from in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we’re supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.

The nineteen suicide bombers didn’t come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.

Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don’t want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be “sensitive” and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction.

This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.

There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses.

Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam–the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia.

It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservative’s aggressive wars.”

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[JoB]

dobro..

:)

never thought i would actually agree with anything Ron Paul had to say…

but life is full of surprises…

thanks for posting this

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[HMC Rich]

Anyone can weigh in on this subject. We are allowed to agree and disagree. We all should follow the rule of law. If the center gets built it gets built. Does your view have more validity than anyone else? No.

Sure Ken.  Tear them down.  The government did it in Waco.  (I believe that serves as a Wing Nut response).    

If you disagree with Mrs Pelosi should you be investigated?    

All Americans can worship or not worship as they choose.  I said I do not know enough but since you seem to have all the answers I guess I will be a Ken Convert and worship the almighty tower of computing.   Oh lead me holy binary mystic.  I must be punished.  Purify me digital God.     

I have blasphemed thou.   Sorry Dude.  Well I am off to the Wing Nut Factory.   Didn’t know asking or posing questions was forbidden.   I will go back to my cave.   Sniff.  

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[dobro]

“Oh lead me holy binary mystic. I must be punished. Purify me digital God.

I have blasphemed thou. Sorry Dude. Well I am off to the Wing Nut Factory. Didn’t know asking or posing questions was forbidden. I will go back to my cave. Sniff.”

Pretty funny stuff. Ask a question that a Rightwinger can’t answer with fox news talking points? He’s a victim now! Poor winger, he can’t even ask a question… What a joke!

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[Ken]

Imam Feisal has addressed groups in the past about the need for Muslims outside the United States to search for common ground with American Muslims and members of other faiths. The State Department distributes copies of Imam Feisal’s book “What’s Right With Islam: A New Vision for Muslims and the West,” translated into Arabic.

dangerous radical indeed.

“His work on tolerance and religious diversity is well-known and he brings a moderate perspective to foreign audiences on what it’s like to be a practicing Muslim in the United States,” State Department spokesman P. J. Crowley said Tuesday. He added that the department’s public-diplomacy offices “have a long-term relationship with” Rauf – including during the past Bush administration, when the religious leader undertook a similar speaking tour.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/adam_serwer_archive?month=08&year=2010&base_name=more_on_raufs_radicalism

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[Ken]

Also note: Officially I am a Pastafarian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

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[JanS]

when this is all said and done, we will all be looking back on this with shame. It’s no longer a NY issue, it’s becoming an international issue about how the world views us. The rallies yesterday at GZ where shameful. There are lies being spread every day about this community center, and about the Imam. He is not a terrorist, he works with the state dept., and in fact is on a state dept. funded tour as we speak here. As far as I’m concerned there is no excuse for what is happening. It’s hateful, it’s political, it’s being fueled by crazies.

For those that think it’s “disrespectful to have this community center (which ain’t even close to GZ – it’s blocks away – can’t even see it from GZ) I’d like to know why they think that. Why a COMMUNITY Center that will have a gym, cooking school, be a meeting place, is disrespectful.Why trying to bring people together is disrespetful. Why the other “mosque” located in the same area isn’t disrespectful.

I shake my head when I listen to the fear mongers, to the nuts that don’t want permits issued to the building of any “mosques” anywhere in the US. We need to wake up and use our common sense. The Newt Gingrich’s of the world need to shut the he!! up, and think before they enter the fray. The guy from American Family values, or whatever it is, who said that it would be OK, if they denounce the Koran…how ignorant can one person be? He needs to shut the he!! up too.

To me, there is no compromise here. They need to build this in spite of the opposition. They shouldn’t have to prove anything to anyone. They have a perfect right to do what they want. Again, I say, the argument is simply about hate and prejudice against Muslims and Islam. Fear mongering at it’s worst. And Americans need to wake up to what is really going on…we need to use our brains and the common sense that we should have. We need to remember what America stands for, what we as a nation are to the rest of the world. We have to remember what exactly it is we’re sending our young men and women to Afghanistan and Iraq to fight for..that’s it’s imperative that we join together, not divide on the basis of religion.

For those on here who object to the location of this community center, look inside yourselves and soul search and ask yourself why…and be honest with yourself when you answer.

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[Ken]

New Dark Ages by Bad Religion

Welcome, All, to our Dark Ages.

Leave your brain behind the door.

Jump right in with your rants and rages.

Get elected, and take the floor.

Let’s go build some border fences-

Bring our hatred to fruition.

Let’s just damn the consequences,

And shred our paper Constitution.

Praise God and pass the ammunition.

We’re taking back our Christian Nation.

It’s open season on Liberalism.

We’ve got no time for contemplation.

So heed now the Patriot’s Cry,

Lock it, load it, aim it true.

And do unto the other guy,

What you don’t want him to do to you.

Your ally is the Lord above.

No need to shed remorseful tears.

No need to lead your life with Love.

Just let your Life be led by Fears.

Grab your Bible. Wave your flag.

The time has come and glory’s near.

Fight the liberal, the spic, the fag.

Your hatred’s what you hold most dear.

And bow to Beck, to Limbaugh bend.

Savage, Bachman, Palin too.

Know when this nation’s at its end,

You’ve been their best li’l bucaroo.

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[Garden_nymph]

Does anyone really think that if this organization PLANS to be a terrorist training ground, they would write it in the papers they filed to get their facility built?! Let’s not loose sight of reality folks!

I for one would like to stand up and state that I am against hate, intolerance and laws that only protect a few. I believe this community center is a great idea. I think it can bring healing to the open wound that is 9/11. Actions speak louder than words; this facility can provide proof and perspective about the Muslim faith that many have not had the opportunity to see before. It will be in an area of porn shops, head shops and strip bars. How many churches would choose to built there?! We have applauded the Boys and Girls Club for doing the same thing. Instead of standing in the way of this facility being built, let’s applaud their efforts and allow ourselves to be pleasantly surprised. Who among us believe the government would not seize a facility training terrorists?! (This is a rhetorical question for those who have been stating equally ridiculous questions earlier in this thread.)

In the Seattle Times today is the article, “155 years later, descendants of treaty signers gather to apologize, reconcile”. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012698328_tribe23.html

The last line of it reads, ‘”The people have come here for change and a new beginning,” … “It starts with us.”‘

Indeed folks, it starts with us! I would like to see the proposed community facility offer the same change and new beginning. I for one fully support it! Give Peace a Chance.

(By the way, I NEVER sited Wikipedia as a source of info and don’t plan to. The military base information I provided was from the bases they represented.)

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[KBear]

Opposition to this project is feeding anti-American sentiment in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. So the loudmouth bigots with their anti-Muslim slogans are actually making things more dangerous for our troops over there. How patriotic is that?

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[Garden_nymph]

So the true reason for this opposition to the project is revealed. It is trying to prove the continued need of a US military presence in the Middle East to “protect” us from the violent Muslims. (Please note, I do not agree with the above mentioned belief system.) It is about oil, has always been about oil and continues to be about oil… They have it and we want it.

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[JoB]

never was a truer statement made…

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[Author]

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