politics of LGBT/straight exclusion

[Anonymous]

cookie, so you didn’t actually read anything? Just took your partners version of reality to be true? I think your comments are more a part of the problem than the solution.

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[cookiemonster]

no…i’m not that stupid. read it.

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[cookiemonster]

JT-my comments are responses to New Resident saying she cannot be answered. i was answering her. I’m sorry if you do not like the reality of heterosexism. I don’t really love it either, but we live with it….each of us…every day…and it affects us….so why hide from some of the more viscious outcomes? let’s deal with reality…I don’t blame New Resident for being heterosexist….I frankly think we all are…we all have the ability to play that out. I am simply frustrated at her unwillingness to listen and believe others.

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[JanS]

cookiemonster (love that name)..thanks for that post…glad you “couldn’t take it anymore”. And thank you for that link..interesting,informative. We all need to keep learning, huh…

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[JanS]

cookiemonster, I agree. Answers are given, but not accepted..I sense it’s because it’s not the answer that one wants to hear, in which case it will always a “no win” situation because there is no one “correct” answer that will work.

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[Anonymous]

Cookie (love the name as well), and I take issue with just one thing. You posted: I am simply frustrated at her unwillingness to listen and believe others.

I think there is enough of that disorder (not listening) to go around. I think if you read all 4 original threads touching on a similar theme, you may agree. Yet for whatever reason, NR is the ONLY person to be singled out. You even declare we are all guilty, yet address your remarks to one individual.

Several posters have even stated there is no right or wrong. But apparently the consensus is very much that NR is wrong.

I don’t feel the topic, question, debate, argument, what have you, during the initial meet-up thread, was begun well on NR’s part. But I also don’t agree that assigning evil intentions, as was done repeatedly, was appropriate. It would tend to make a person defensive and desiring to clear their name, so to speak.

I re-read every thread ( a couple of them have since been deleted) multiple times. I pointed out some of the hypocrisy by highlighting direct quotes. The name calling and accusations were coming from one side, and the list was long. I was ignored, treated rudely, or also told to shut up and move on (in so many words).

Every one is so bent on showing NR the error of her ways, but very few are willing to take a look in the mirror. I can tell you’re trying very hard to maintain civility, but you are inadvertently joining the same chorus.

I’m sure you and your partner are good, genuine people, but I am bothered by how the LGBTQ community and their cheer squad has handled this. Thus, why I started this thread to begin with.

At any rate, I appreciate you weighing in with your perspective, and I hope you continue to participate.

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[Kayleigh]

JT, I get that you’re friends with NR. I really do.

But watching your mental gymnastics in defense of her indefensible behavior is embarrassing.

NR has been given far more answers (some startlingly thoughtful and wise, some deeply personal) than she deserves.

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[Zenguy]

NR, apparently you can write but cannot read. I had never heard of Heterosexism until I started reading this thread…let’s call it by its less palatable name…homophobia! Simply put it means you have a problem with gay people that want to get together and meet each other.

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[JoB]

JT

There is a reason NR has been singled out on this one.. and it is the same reason that started the fuss in the first place.

the initial invitation to this group did not include any restrictions.. it was inclusive.. GBLT and friends…

Any exclusion that occurred happened after NR started making demands for answers….and then followed those demands with assessments of individual and group character assassinations.

to paraphrase a statement that she has made over and over on these threads.. if you won’t answer.. if you aren’t willing to teach me.. then you aren’t much of a person/group.

When she assumed her right to attend.. to understand.. to dispute posters reality.. was more important than their right to privacy and became combative… posters were combative back.

When she defended TheHouse’s right to question Socl’s right to discuss morality on the basis of his sexual orientation after Socl had patiently tried to answer her every question.. people got angry.

I too have read through these posts. Some individuals have been incredibly frank and open in their posts… revealing more here on the pages of WSB than i would guess some family members know. They have replied with startling intimacy.

I can understand why you don’t see it because you make the basic assumption in the heading for this thread that this group was being exclusive.

You make the assumption that this group hurt your friend and you are defending her.

If you make that assumption.. then perhaps NRs continued demand that “they” explain to her is no more than rude. But it is still rude.

I make the basic assumption that they are behaving normally like every other interest group on the forum…

and yet they as a group have bent over backwards to try to justify their right to the normal wish to meet as a special interest group.

That they should have been placed in that position in the first place proves that they should request their initial get-togethers be limited to those living the life or loving those who do…

JT.. it is painful to read your defense of behavior you wouldn’t tolerate if it was directed at you..

especially your comment dismissing cookiemonsters post by assuming that she hadn’t read the thread…

I .. and others.. get that you are defending a friend… but perhaps that defense has gone as far as it can.

NewResident… I apologize for speaking as though you weren’t in the room… i was trying to answer JT’s question as to why people are becoming so hostile to your continued questioning.

If you don’t get what they are trying to tell you now.. maybe it is time to step back.. read a little.. digest some information… and then ask JT some questions that I am pretty sure she can answer.

please just let it rest for a while.

You were rude. people told you that you were being rude and you responded by demanding that they point out exactly where you were being rude.

I can understand that if only a couple of people tell you that you are being rude.. but several different people.. some of whom have never posted here before .. have tried many different ways to tell you that you are being rude.

singling this group out and demanding they explain themselves to you is rude by itself…

yes, some have been rude to you in response… but you can’t really blame them for the reactions that provoked.

To be as plain as i can.. whether it was your intention to be rude or not… demanding than anyone explain themselves to you is rude… demanding that anyone remain in conversation with you after they have indicated they no longer with to converse is rude.

I am speaking… not as a spokesperson for this group.. but as someone who actually cares about you… and who has come to your defense far more often than you are aware.

I assume that you had good intentions… I assume you didn’t understand how rude you were being.

please just let this one go.

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[cookiemonster]

JT-

Ya got me! I did address my remarks to one person…because she is the person who asking the question. My remarks about homophobia and heterosexism (include racism, etc her) are about all of us, are for all of us. And, she asked a question, so I responded to her.

I know you are gay and open to comingling with heteros….as if the rest of us aren’t. But my friend, that isn’t what this conversation is about.

And, just so you know…this isn’t my first time around the block with this particular kind of conversation in fact it is one I have weekly in the work I do, so patronizing is really not in order.

I absolutely 100% agree with you JT that heterosexism is not a single person issue….NR did not invent it…she’s acting it out as all of us have and do and will again (me included). That doesn’t mean we get a pass.

I do believe we are in this together.

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[JoB]

Zenguy…

i don’t believe that NewResident is homophobic… but i can understand why you might come to that conclusion.

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[soclwrkrinmotn]

Zenguy, I prefer the term “sexual prejudice” myself (just because “homophobia” implies individual fear, and we both know that isn’t so), but I hear what you are trying to say.

I have to agree with JoB–as I have met NR–but I, too, understand.

NR: my email is tdotgalvanatgmaildotcom–let’s make plans to meet. I think people–and myself–have tried to explain the connection, but I also think a public forum probably isn’t the place to do it.

Actually, anyone that wants my email, take it. (even TheHouse can have it. Con gusto.) Anyone wants to meet with me and NR, please do.

I left the thread last night because I was freaking tired…my job takes a lot of my energy, and sometimes, so does the blog. Last night, I had nothing left, and in that state, I am very hard pressed to be patient with anyone, including myself.

Today, I am tied to the phone, so I will be at the computer all day.

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[soclwrkrinmotn]

And to add, NO ONE said that Republicans were all the same. (I think Zenguy beat me to the punch on that one.)

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[charlabob]

You all are so much more articulate than poor pathetic little old me. So I just have to jump in with a few blunt cranky words. (If I were a little older or a little further to the right I’d probably call it straight talk. But that’s yet another honorable English-language phrase that’s been co-opted and polluted.)

NR, the reason people are addressing you directly, which may seem like personal attacks, is because you’ve asked us to. You’ve said, “It’s about me — you have to explain yourselves to me — me me me me me.” OK, so you’re getting what you requested, though you apparently don’t like the answers. Not surprising–I suspect if any of us did the same, on any topic, we would be unpleasantly surprised by the answers. Personally , that’s why I never ask — so you-all won’t tell!

Second, at least in my case, I don’t assume you’re homophobic (I’ll be damned if I’ll take on heterosexist to hide the hate in homophobic.) I assume you’re Republican, because you say you are. And, in this discussion and in others, you employ what I consider to be classic Rep tactics — endless repetition of half truths and opinions masquerading as facts, and feigned naive mis-understanding and hurt until the other side(s) cave. Think about it — we’re all still arguing about whether LGBTF exclusivity when back in the day (week/month) the original gathering wasn’t exclusive. There’s an interesting discussion to be had about separatism versus heterogeneity but that interesting discussion ain’t happening here.

You may simply want information — but you’ve gotten more information, patiently imparted, than anyone has a right to expect. All I can think is that you’re going to keep asking until someone (besides JT) tells you what you want to hear.

I *very much* respect JT’s arguments supporting you — because she’s a loyal friend and I honor that in any person and because she’s willing to say what she thinks in the face of immense pressure to say something else.

I have a feeling JT has gotten tons of private email support — as we all do when we take a unexpected position. On behalf of both JT and NR, if you’ve been sending them private mail, come out of that particular closet and support their position publicly.

Soc — are you sure all repubs aren’t the same? We’ll have to talk :-)

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[Zenguy]

I agree with Socl, when I cannot resolve an issue with a customer in two emails I pick up the phone and call them and I think that is what is needed here…a face to face discussion. So many of us have great stories to share (lord knows I have had a life of extreme highs and lows) and I am sure it would go a long way in understand the struggles we face on an almost daily basis.

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[JoB]

Charalbob

LOL..

don’t shatter my hope…

all democrats aren’t the same. how could all republicans be?

i still choose to believe in what seems to be an endangered species…

quiet thoughtful well meaning well intentioned republicans.

of course.. republicans probably say the same thing about us ;->

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[keleeso]

Here is the progression of this LGBT members thoughts as she (meaning me) read through the threads:

1. Cool – a meeting for other gay people in West Seattle

2. (at reading NR request to come)-Huh. I wonder why she would ask that instead of just showing up. (this later became-Gheesh, that is unusual. I don’t know of many Republicans who what want to join us (yes, me judging).

3. Then I thought. Hmmmm. If NR just came with a GLBT friend she would have been totally accepted and no-one would have questioned why she wanted to be there.

4. By now I am up to date on all related threads and I am thinking-This is ridiculous. I have never seen anyone who is not a member of the group (ie. gardners, motorcycle enthusiests, etc) ask to come to a group. I just assumed that ‘members’ would sometimes bring friends who had some interest in the group- without questioning why they were there.

5. Fast forward through annoyance at the tone people are using, at the stubborness and closemindedness. Sadness about the lack of clarity, inability to understand and anger. Frustration that things cannot be more easily explained (in part because we have so many different views of the issues)

6. Then Hope. People do want to clarify. I would love to meet with NR and Soc and anyone else who is interested in a face-to-face-…) meeting to discuss something that seems to big for these blogging bits.

I hope people who are interested in discussion will continue it here, and if it happens, join an informal group to discuss.

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[soclwrkrinmotn]

I am sure they do. :)) And ain’t none of us the same.

On a tangent, truthfully, I think I am not even truly a democrat. :) Back in the day, I was co-chair of my local Green party. (And yep, they even hated being called out on privilege. We all do.) And before that, I was registered socialist. Overall I would say I am a democratic socialist (one being political, the other economic)…or a radical economic and social egalitarian.

However, that is neither here nor there. Zenguy is right on with the fact that we have stories to tell, and many of us still face discrimination. The forum isn’t a great place to try to really explain a very fundamental concept.

I won’t lie, if I were more closeted, I would deal with less. But as a loud-mouthed, mixed-race, activist, queer “trannie-boy,” I get it too. (Just a caveat: someone outside of the queer community refers to me that way, it would be very disrespectful. It’s an in-group/out-group thing.)

I have the right to be open about who I am, and to expect otherwise is heterosexist and cisgenderist. My gender idenity/orientation is an aspect of my public AND private persona. At the same time, questioning the right to meet among ourselves…or trying to “make a point” about that right IS heterosexist. I think JoB, meg and cookiemonster made very good explainations as to why…but my offer is good for anyone for the in-person discussion.

BTW, my gender identity and sexual orientation has NOTHING to do with my morality. I think I am a pretty moral guy, although as fallible as anyone else here (if not more so.)

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[charlabob]

Sorry, JoB — I used to believe in quiet well-intentioned republicans. (Emphasis on the quiet???)

Then I found out Senator Ed Brooke was involved with Barbara Walters and that pretty much smashed whatever hope I had.

Last I heard, the Log Cabin Republicans of San Francisco were seriously considering endorsing Obama — either that or obstaining. (LCRs are LGBTQ repubs — such an endangered species that you younger whippersnappers may never have heard of ’em. :-)

Kee, good points! As a former (completely accidental) biker mama and black militant (neither of which I am) I do find the asking a bit jarring.

I stumbled into both of those groups legitimately and inadvertently — and got purged from being an official black militant during the Stokely Carmichael era — though I didn’t lose any of my friends. Actually, the latter is probably relevant to this discussion — basically, I understood their need to separate from the larger society and they respected what I could actually do in the background.

When I get to the point that I can actually attend any gathering without pain and suffering and dread, I may have a completely different attitude. I will certainly let you-all know, since I realize you’re just waiting for my opinion on pretty much anything :-)

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[beachdrivegirl]

keleeso- love your post and tahnks for sharing your thoughts.

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[Zenguy]

Truely, not sure what I am politics wise. Socially I am VERY liberal, I do not care what you do as long as it is consenting adults…more power to you. I think pot and prostitution should be legal and regulated, I do not care if anyone wants to get married, again as long as they are adults and consenting…three guys…have at it.

Fiscally, I look at paying taxes as an investment in my country and a privledge to live in this wonderful place, but I expect that money to be used wisely and not to be squandered.

Is there a party for that? Libretarian I guess, but we will probably not see a third party on a national level in my lifetime…sigh.

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[Bayou]

Wow, 4 more pages of comments since I checked in yesterday. I just thought I should say that I was not trying to avoid responding but I just don’t have the energy for this thread right now. As I have said, I am willing to participate in a civil conversation but I don’t have patience required otherwise.

Perhaps it would be better in person although someone might want to bring a “talking stick” so everyone is not screaming over one another.

A note to NewRes: I try really hard to not make judgments of people (based on politics, orientation or otherwise). That said, I found it very difficult to respond to your question when in one post you did genuinely seem interested in gaining knowledge and yet in the next you bash the community for not responding properly or quickly enough.

Yes, we all have our own experiences/ opinions and that is all that we can begin to share. But when you get into a discussion that is as personal (and sometimes demeaning) as this one has been, I don’t think that it is any surprise that some would begin to lose interest in participating.

*bowing out*

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[RS]

*brings head back in from the window*

What? what happened? Are we eating hot dogs now? With little cheese bits? Excellent!!

Thanks for the great post cookiemonster! I knew we’d drag your articulate butt into this at some point. :)

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[JoB]

i am headed out the door to the street fair..

to find a hot dog.. with all the fixings..

i will be the woman walking around with the dirty shirt front.. it’s not good if it doesn’t dribble:)

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[Kayleigh]

I appreciate the spirit of generosity offered by kinder souls than mine, but I don’t think that meeting face-to-face will help NR get it.

Call me cynical if you must. I’ve been called worse. :-)

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[Author]

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