politics of LGBT/straight exclusion

[Anonymous]

I didn’t want to get yelled at for *hi-jacking* the original thread:

https://westseattleblog.com/blog/forum/topic.php?id=948&replies=66

or the satirical rebuttal:

https://westseattleblog.com/blog/forum/topic.php?id=1067&replies=9

As a card carrying member of the LGBT community, I just want to express that not all of us want to belong to a separate group. Politically, socially, or otherwise. There was a time, and in some places it still is that time, where one needed the protection and acceptance that went with being in such a group. 2008, in Seattle, is not that time.

The whole concept of being identified by who our romantic partner is, is what we’ve been fighting against. This is not like a knitting or gardening club, as has been suggested elsewhere. That would be a gathering for those who love knitting, or desire to learn how to knit. I don’t love the LBGT community just for existing. I don’t even know if I like you yet.

I want to belong to, be a part of, and be accepted in to, society as a whole. I do not wish to be identified or isolated from based again, on whom I’m romantically involved with.

I’ve sat in a gay bar and watched how a straight couple is treated when they walk in the door. Reverse exclusion and prejudice is appalling in my opinion. It contributes to the us/them separation and is runs counter to my personal ideals.

A lot of decent, well meaning people are defending this position. I am rarely decent but almost always well meaning, and I don’t agree. I don’t agree for the first get together, or the fifteenth. Unless I’m single, I don’t care if you’re LBGT or not and I don’t want you to care if I am.

There is a point to house’s post and it’s valid. I would not tolerate a straits only, whites only, or any other only group. And a knitting/gardening group wouldn’t either. In fact they would encourage as much interest and participation as possible.

Why doesn’t the same apply here?

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[TheHouse]

JT, you are frickin’ brilliant and I truly appreciate you being able to decipher my post.

I 100% agree with your post above and will buy your first beer at our next gathering.

Thank you!

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[B-squared]

JT- Nicely articulated, and i concur. looking forward to the meet-up/gathering, whoever shows up!

(back to lurk-mode under my rock)

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[beachdrivegirl]

JT very very well said. And house I had not seen your ealier post or I may have responded.:)

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[hopey]

Well put. And I’m not even a Republican! ;)

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[Anonymous]

JT – You amaze me more and more every day I know you.

Thank you for being perceptive, for realizing, without me having to come out and say it, what issue it was that I had!!!

I think your post here is the most intelligent post I’ve ever read on this forum.

And this is only one small reason, out of several, that I know we will always be friends!

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[charlabob]

Sorry, JT — I usually agree with you, so here goes: I didn’t feel at all excluded by anything here. Frankly, I felt disinterested :-) I think Shibaguyz made it clear that the focus was on the community and that everyone was welcome. I wouldn’t go to a gathering of marathon runners either.

NR, it was obvious what you were trying to do — I couldn’t figure out why. It seemed obvious to me that you were welcome to come and it didn’t seem obvious to me why you’d want to.

So as a result of this discussion, and everyone’s welcoming of House’s incredibly meanspirited and snarky post, feel free to invite or disinvite me to any gathering. I won’t be there.

So long and thanks for the fish.

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[JimmyG]

How specifically was The House’s post meanspirited?

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[charlabob]

Let’s see — snarky, sarcastic, “responding” to something that no one ever said. You’re right — I should have been more specific.

If the original post had said, LGBT only, an object lesson might be in order. BUT FROM THE BEGINNING that was not the attitude, so I can only think of this whole explosion/reaction as gratuitous meanness .

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[JimmyG]

Snarky and meanspirited are 2 distinctly different things.

I may agree with you that the post was snarky. But meanspirited?

Having an opinion that differs from others doesn’t make something meanspirited. And there has been no “explosion” here.

I see only an exchange of ideas, and almost 100% civility.

As I said in a different post, nothing I have ever, or will ever post here would be different from what I would say in person to someone. It’s having a discussion, not an attack.

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[k]

ok. let’s start this post out with the fact that i am gay. a bit late to the party, but identify as gay. i have never been one for excluding anyone. my life is just like any other person’s life. i eat, drink and be merry at all the same places as you. i do not choose gay bars, gay pride events or any gay organizations. i live a mainstream life. i can also see the side of members of the gay community who attend said events etc. for many, the fact that they are gay has resulted in being banished from their families, dumped by friends, discriminated against in the workplace and even resulted in physical harm. i can completely understand why there may be a comfort level in “hangin’ with your own”. that said, we will never make strides against discrimination if we continue behavior that results in others feeling excluded. i say we set the tone for one community here. it would be beneficial for all involved. it’s what i love most about west seattle!

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[charlabob]

No, if one wanted to have a civilized discussion, one would say, directly, “This feels exclusionary to me — and I’m uncomfortable with that.” And then a civilized discussion would ensue.

If one wanted to prove a point that was nowhere to be seen, one would say, “But can I come? But can I come? But can I come? Oh dear, I don’t understand, But can I come?”

And then someone else would say, “Let’s have a gathering for straights only.”

There is certainly nothing I post that I wouldn’t say in person.

The first time I “met” the house I thought he and I and another poster had a civilized conversation in person. When he posted publicly about the same conversation, he said we were old whiners.

If you don’t consider House’s response to JenV an explosion, I suspect we have different standards.

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[missaudreyhorne]

I have to say I agree with Charla – if you don’t agree with it or don’t feel welcome, DON’T GO. As much as I understand the whole point of what JT is trying to say about exclusion, I really don’t think that was the point. I don’t see anything wrong with people wanting to feel comfortable, and perhaps a LGBT group provides a safe and welcoming place for some. Obviously the original post included “friends”, which to me means anyone who is open and accepting of this particular alternative lifestyle.

Also, I’m sure this is a given, but there aren’t straight groups because it isn’t “alternative” or “minority” and most straight people don’t have to deal with sexuality descrimination on a regular basis. So to me that makes sense that people would want to have a group for support and friendship amongst people who will accept them.

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[Aim]

JT, I respectfully disagree with you on this one.

My partner is still not able to safely *go for a walk* in our neighborhood. As much as we would love to think that Seattle is progressive and accepting and we’re all part of the same community, it’s not and we’re not. When we are still called “freaks” and threatened with violence just for going for a walk, when we are threatened with sexual violence in the parking lot of the grocery store *just because we exist,* we still have education and activism needed.

To that end, sometimes we need or want to have a group where we can just *be.* Sadly, my partner is threatened with violence a minimum of once a week while in West Seattle minding his own business, because of what people perceive him to be (sometimes this is a gay man, sometimes a trans man) Either way, it’s not ok. It makes me feel unsafe in my own neighborhood, and I just want to have an outing (no pun intended) where we can simply exist without being harassed for it.

Allies are, and have always been, welcome.

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[missaudreyhorne]

Aim, the fact that your partner is harrassed in our neighborhood on a regular basis makes me SO SAD. I thought Seattle was so much more progressive than this.

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[Aim]

missaudreyhorne, I completely agree. It is a very sad commentary on people when they harass and threaten others for simply existing. It’s even sadder that it happens so frequently, and that folks tend to brush it under the rug or blame the victim.

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[andrea]

JT, like many have already said, I believe you spoke very well about an apparently touchy subject for many. I personally am neither for nor against any one group, no matter who that group is, wanting to get together just for the sake of it. I do however appreciate your unique and personal perspective.

And I am still greatly looking forward to meeting and hanging out on the 14th with all of the WSB members out there that I have grown to love, hate, admire, and cringe at here in the written form.

I already know and admire a few of you through the magical ways of WSB (JT, New Res, Jan, BDG, WSMom…hey where’s JoB?), and I can’t wait to add to my WSB friends, whatever your affiliations may be (though I may have to reserve my opinion of Husky fans…:0))

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[Shibaguyz]

You know… I wasn’t trying to start anything by suggesting that a group of the WS LGBT community get together any more than any other group is trying to start a fight when they suggest they get together. I’m not “in charge” of this meet up, we just brought it up.

If it hasn’t been made clear yet and if NewResident has a problem with feeling excluded, it is beyond me. I thought it was pretty clear that friends of the LGBT community were welcome. I also thought it was pretty clear that having a meeting of the LGBT community was about creating safe space for those folks to meet in where they didn’t have to feel self conscious about who they were.

While I understand that there are LGBT people out there who do not feel uncomfortable in everyday life, there are plenty who do. And, while we feel totally comfortable in our skin in public, not everyone does. To this end, it is important sometimes to have meet ups where people DO feel safe and accepted.

Use whatever alphabet soup you want to describe this meet up of folks. But don’t take a perfectly innocent meet up and try to turn it into something political and exclusive. Yes, I’m speaking to NR. If you don’t like it that we are having an LGBT meet up during Pride Month, then I suggest you not show up. If you just want to stir up trouble, then leave the rest of these folks out of it and address us directly and we’ll have as much discussion as you want to have about this. Frankly, I don’t see your point in being “confused” at all. You were acting confused trying to cause a problem and whine that someone was trying to leave you out of something. I recognized that you didn’t have the guts to come right out and say it or to ask us directly so I wasn’t going to turn it into something ugly. Again, we were just trying to suggest someplace relaxed and supportive during Pride Month.

So, JT, I understand that you don’t need the support of or care for the support of the LGBT community. I also understand that you are beyond that sort of thing and are not supportive of it. However, there are still plenty of people out there who do not feel safe walking the streets or even holding hands in public or calling their partner their partner. And, by the way, JT, if you do feel comfortable with all of this, thank those who went before you and had such meetings and emboldened the LGBT community to make themselves visible and stand up against discrimination.

Yes, JT, I agree with you that the way to become a part of the larger society is to be integrated into it in many ways, however, it is also okay if we want to just be around other LGBT people sometimes. Why would you have a problem with that? Especially when there was nothing exclusive about any of the posts. In every one of them it was stated that friends of the LGBT community were more than welcome to come. In the one where I didn’t use the word “friends.” I explained the use of LGBT rather than alphabet soup.

Bottom line, if you don’t want to come, don’t come. But, the LGBT community will meet and will celebrate this one moment in history when the people who came before us fought for our rights as LGBT(insert alphabet soup here) people. We will do this by creating another safe place where possibly another person finds their voice. If you don’t see the need for that, you are entitled to your opinion. If you feel the need to cause trouble or try to insist that we are doing something wrong by meeting, you’re going to be fighting a loosing battle with this queer couple.

Okay, that probably rambled and ranted a little bit but that’s what happens when you start typing and you’re passionate right? Okay… go… I’ll be your target for a while…

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[Anonymous]

I don’t disavow for one second, others’ experiences of prejudice, hate, or violence. If you read that into my words, you would be incorrect. Most things mentioned here, have happened to me as well. And I certainly feel self conscious and afraid at times.

I have also been treated with hostility and violence for being a woman. I have been ridiculed and shamed for being overweight. I have repeatedly been told I’m going to hell because I’m an atheist. It’s all wrong, and it all hurts.

The only point I was expressing, was how I wish to live my life forward. How I wish to be viewed and treated now. How I don’t want to ever be mistaken for putting that same attitude of exclusion out to another. Whether it be intentional or not.

I think it is a very valid experience for some straight people to feel, we as LGBT persons, think everyone one of them are the bad guys. Whether it is spelled out or subtext, that attitude exist. I only wished to state, I don’t feel that way. I want to be a part of the greater group, that doesn’t see a difference between us. I want to promote that outlook.

I don’t think it’s a miracle pill that will solve life’s unfairness. I don’t think it will prevent someone from being mean to me tomorrow. In another thread, I told someone to *be the change you wish to see*. That’s all I’m saying.

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[Shibaguyz]

JT – I agree with what you are saying. I still see a need sometimes for a meeting of like minded people to get together. I don’t see how that is making straight people out to be the bad guys. That attitude may exist, but it does not exist in my world. Nothing was said about being exclusive in my original post that started all of this. All I wanted to do was get together with other LGBT people for coffee.

I don’t need anyone to “make a point” or “teach me a lesson” about how to get communities to work together and be inclusive. The people who started yelling “exclusion” stated they were trying to “make us think” and “teach us” about the error of our ways by wanting to get together for coffee.

Guess the next time I want to get together with a group of people from a particular interest or background, the WSB is not the place to do it.

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[WSMom]

Shibaguyz: I have hesitated to put my thoughts into these threads, but I want to give you some words of encouragement. I hope you to set up opportunities to meet with whichever groups of people share your interests here on the WSB. I benefited from meeting with you and other gardeners a couple of months ago. You are one of those cool people who instigate folks getting out of their house and becoming a community. The WSB is the perfect avenue for your instigating community building, please don’t let someone like House influence your actions. He’s a pot stir-er, that’s how he gets his jollies. I just roll my eyes and shake my head at pretty much everything he posts. I’m sure he finds my ideas just as ridiculous. So please, do what makes you happy because I can assure you, I for one think you are doing a good thing!

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[littlebrowndog]

Shibaguyz, I can fully understand your desire for a safe space for like-minded people. JT, I understand being at a place in life where one prefers to be integrated into the day to day community lives of straight and gay people alike. I have an “invisible” disability, one that is very highly stigmatized. I spend my days fully integrated into the community, sometimes remaining silent about my disability and sometimes being out about it. But there are times when I just plain want to be with peers who also have lived experience with my disability. We can share stories about coping, wellness and recovery, etc., in ways that my friends without this disability could never understand. We can fully let our hair down. Then, re-energized, I return to my day-to-day life as a member of the broader society. So, Shibaguyz, I can really identify with wanting a gathering of like-minded people with a particular shared experience. I never saw your original post or followups as exclusionary; I just read them and thought “Oh, that’s interesting. I’m not a member of that particular group, so I don’t want to attend. I hope they have a good time.” I hope you have a wonderful get together!

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[Jerald]

Dear Aim, I feel so sorry that your partner is treated so cruelly. I hope you do form a community here in West Seattle and commend Shibaguyz for starting this (unexpectedly) controversial thread. I’m baffled by the opposition to what seems a perfectly logical and pleasant attempt to connect and form friendships. Bless you all.

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[JoB]

had i known this thread existed, i would have posted here.. as this is where the real discussion was.

Cudos JT for speaking up and stimulating real conversation.

I don’t see why you can’t be both part of the whole and still unique enough to want to spend time with people who share your experience… no matter what makes you unique.

i choose to be part of the whole… and yet am very aware that i live with unique challenges and meet others who share my challenges in public groups that are exclusive.

I belong to a group of older women who confront the challenges of growing older in our society.

I meet with a group of mostly women who have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome.. locally, nationally and internationally… and not just to stay up on the latest medical news.

Had i not been too arrogant to take the exam when i still could have passed it, i would meet with Mensa…

These are all public groups who limit their membership to individuals that fit their specific criteria… with Mensa you have to pass a test to get in.. it doesn’t get more exclusive than that.

I chose to mention those three groups because they are public groups that all have conditions for membership that have nothing to do with any condition you can choose… sex & age, illness and IQ… as i believe to be the case with the LGBT group.

I also meet with other more private groups that have conditions for inclusion that are more discretionary… and we often connect through notices on public spaces…

JT.. I totally understand your feelings about any group being exclusive… and about any group discriminating against another for any reason, but i don’t really think that is what is happening here.

This isn’t discrimination.. this is not about exclusion but about setting conditions for inclusion. They are not the same…

I know the safety issue is a real one.. but i suspect the bigger issue is that if you include those who know nothing about your challenges in every meeting.. instead of hanging out and just being who you are.. you end up spending a lot of time explaining and defending.

the black humor that makes living a life full of obstacles possible… is only funny to those who have faced the same challenges. To those who don’t, it can be offensive. making it comprehensible to people haven’t lived with those challenges requires sharing intimate details with strangers… and event hen yo spend a fair amount of time explaining why that isn’t just distasteful but funny.

Some jokes really are in jokes.. you have to have lived the circumstances to understand why they might be funny… why laughing about something so tragic and possibly offensive is so much better than crying…

Just as some truths really are unique to your circumstances.. and it is hurtful and time consuming to have to explain and then defend why this is true for you to people who just don’t get it… because they don’t live it.

frankly, i am glad that most of the people i know and communicate with don’t face my particular challenges.. i don’t want them to get it.. because the only way to do so is the hard way.

But i am also thankful to have places where i can simply share the problems i face… to laugh and sometimes cry… without having to explain.

I can’t speak for the shibaguyz or for the others who were so grateful for the invitation..

but had i been issuing the invitation.. i am sure that would have been my intent. And i assume it ws theirs.

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[Anonymous]

JoB, like so many threads on here, one topic leads in to another and before you know it, a whole new direction is being taken. All along I was just trying to interject that other views exist.

I don’t think shibaguyz were ever saying *NR, you can not come* period. I don’t think NR would disrupt or cause problems at ANY gathering, let alone this one.

Antagonistic. Whining. Dysfunctional nonsense. Petulant child. Martyr. Terribly entitled. Passive-aggressive harassing. Causing problems. Deluded by your positionality. Pot-stirrer. Keep your privilege in check. Snarkiness intended. When are you going to let go of your crap.

These words or phrases were all said TO straight persons. IMO, the name calling and rudeness was one direction and it doesn’t seem to be permissible to call out this group (LGBT) for it.

A larger conversation seems appropriate when this is where we still are.

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[Author]

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