politics of LGBT/straight exclusion

[missaudreyhorne]

Ha! Democratuality. Good one.

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[Anonymous]

JT – No comment.

missaudreyhorne – I am trying to discuss heterosexism because that is what socl was talking about. I was trying to figure out if I had somehow projected those feelings to any one with me not being aware of it.

About a week ago I remember having a nice conversation about all the isms.

Now, everyone is telling me to shut up. Why can’t a conversation take place? That is what, now, concerns me.

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[RS]

Oh my god. NR, it’s not the subject matter or heterosexism at this point, its about the way in which people are communicating about this. Kayleigh, myself, meg and others have all explained why they don’t want to talk about this here, now, in the way you are trying to force the issue. Go back and read those posts. People are pissed off. That is why a conversation can’t take place. Socl is still willing to have coffee with you. He’s an articulate and patient resource, so take him up on the offer and we can allllll let this gooooooo!!

Socl- in answer to your question, it’s either because you’re too acidic or too basic. :) lalalala *puts head out window*

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[Anonymous]

OMG!

I am now convinced that I am in a room full of children.

Get a grip, RS, WHAT exactly are you (and meg and Kayleigh) so upset about?????

If you are going to accuse people of projecting heterosexism for asking about coming to a get-together, back it up!!!!!!!!!!

Why is that an example of heterosexism? It still has yet to be explained.

Why am I the only person that can see this?

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[Erik]

If at this so-called ‘adult’ stage in your life you’re worried about what others think of you, that shows that your insecurities run your life. A mature person sets aside those insecure thoughts and proceeds anyways.

Call me xxxx, and love me anyways…. :-)~

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[Kayleigh]

I’m mad because I’m an elitist, smug-ist twit who unattractively enjoys the suffering of others.

(well, the twit part is kinda true…sometimes…)

;-)

Seriously, I’m annoyed because I feel manipulated, NR. I don’t know if you do it intentionally or not (I suspect not.) But you never seem to see your role in the upset—you look around you and pretend to be baffled because it relieves of you of responsibility for your part in the mess. And yes, I have my part too. I do tend to respond to these things out of some bizarre compulsion. (I need my own blog, I am told.)

You asked. I told you. Now I’m off to take a run.

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[Zenguy]

NR all Republicans are not any more alike than all Gays and Lesbians or any other group. I have several Republican friends (one is even gay), just like you have gay friends. I have conversations with them about politics and being gay and we share ideas and often see each others points and try to learn a bit more about each other along the way.

It is frustrating however to see the same questions that never get answered NR. Seems to me you pick and choose which posts to respond to and which to ignore. The logical points seem to go unanswered more often than not…curious.

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[Anonymous]

Erik – Wanting to understand if I inadvertently projected a heterosexism on the LGBT get-together is not the same thing as being insecure about how others think of me.

I think because I am trying to explore that idea, only shows that I am trying to gain a better understanding of where some misconceptions may lay (mainly my own misconceptions).

Kayleigh, this whole time I have been trying to continue the conversation of isms. I have responded to posts that have been off-topic, but my question remains:

Is it heterosexism that I was questioning the exclusivity of the LGBT community? That is what was insinuated, I would appreciate someone explaining how heterosexism correlates with the exclusivity of the get-together.

I don’t know how more simple to put it.

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[Anonymous]

Thank you, zenguy!! Why won’t any one answer my question?

And if it is a situation that needs to be discussed off the forum, why?

That’s all I’m asking.

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[meg]

NR- so many people have answered all your questions over and over again. And still you say no one will have a conversation with you . Do you think it could possibly be because you are not frickin’ listening to ANY of the answers you get????? Seems to me you are asking questions to “hear” your own voice. Your own inane (& already answered) questions.

“Of course, I have not lived the life you have led and that could be a very ridiculous question, but could you please enlighten me as to why this cannot be discussed on a public forum?”

Hmmm…. since you are unable to actually hear anything people are saying to about their experiences, unless they are supporting you, why do you think that might be. Come on NR….think on it? Can you figure it out? It feels like talking to a brick wall that is why!!! You never did spill your life story on this forum either.

As for my thinking you should find some basic info on your own and maybe do some research, it is because you don’t listen. Socl defined and explained heterosexism and the ‘isms multiple times in a very clear way on various threads. And yet, you seem to think it still has not been explained to you. Do you see how people might feel like they would think it a giant waste of energy to “help” you??

Again, I have offered to suggest some readings for you if knowledge is truly what you seek–you must have also missed that.

Ah, and the ever so enticing quote: “Good luck with all the isms you face on a day to day basis – I wonder why that is????” Nice. Real nice NR. Sure, that makes people think you are open to talking. To insinuate that -isms people face is somehow their fault is just complete BS. You say you aren’t a typical Republican, but that rhetoric is about as Republican as one can be.

And finally, “I imagine that if I desired people to understand me and my lifestyle, I would want to share information with people who were asking”. At the risk of being repetitive, people have shared. You just haven’t seemed to accept the reasons or answers.

Oh, and for your educational purposes, being queer is NOT a lifestyle. Gardening, running, doing triathlons, reading, being healthy, cooking, learning…these make up a piece of my lifestyle. Who I love, how I express gender, who I am attracted to….not a lifestyle. There is no ‘gay lifestyle’.

What is it that you want? Really. You started this whole thing a month ago feeling excluded and it has just gone on from there. Why did you even care? You clearly aren’t in it for the learning since you refuse to listen. What is it? Are you a pot stirrer? Are you questioning your own sexuality? Do you just like to argue? What? And for the love of some god, do not say you just want to understand and no one will help you or answer you or be in discussion with you, or I will vomit.

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[Zenguy]

If there was any exclusivity in the LGBTQ get together is was in your preception. We have all typed util we were blue in the fingers that everyone, allies included were welcome at the event.

The gay community in the past was very exclusive, mostly because we were invisible and viewed as freaks. I remember those days, it was not that long ago that gay bars only had number over a door. Now a days, there are rainbow flags and signs over the door of gay bars. Gays and straights mix freely at gay bars and straight bars. As a matter of fact I was at a “tough guy” bar not too long ago and the men to straight women ratio was about even and they were not all fa* hags either.

None the less people seek out others to build relationships with that share common interests, be it gardening, knitting or being gay. A common interest can be the building block of a friendship. Does that mean I will be friends with every gay person, certainly not but it is a start.

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[Anonymous]

meg – I certainly don’t want to make you vomit.

I actually believe that we could get somewhere with this. Bear with me.

My question was: how is someone, questioning the exclusivity of the LGBT community a projection of heterosexism?

That is the only question that I have. I feel that if you are going to accuse someone of something, you should be able to back it up. I believe it was insinuated that my questioning the exclusivity of the get-together was a projection of heterosexism. I do not want to unknowingly be projecting that idea, therefore, I am trying to reach out and see how it correlates.

I have shared a lot of my life story on this forum. Probably more than I should have. I don’t know how long you have been a member, but there are people that do know I shared.

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[JoB]

oh, i wish i was an oscar meyer wiener..

that is what i’d really love to be..

for if i was an oscar meyer wiener..

everyone would be in love with me…

no sexual allusions were portrayed in the speaking of this song.

voice was withheld to protect he innocent.

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[Kayleigh]

Jo do you remember those hot dogs that had little blobs of cheese (or possibly pastuerized processed cheez product bits) already in them? I think they were Oscar Meyer’s.

Do they still make those? They rocked when I was a kid.

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[JoB]

kayleigh..

yes, i think they still make those… my kids loved them…

the grandkids prefer miniature bagel dogs ..

i want chili dogs with onion and cheddar cheese and really good mustard:)

too bad i just ate:(

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[Kayleigh]

Dang, now I’m craving one and I can’t have ’em. They’re not worth breaking my no beef or pork rule. :-(

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[Zenguy]

They must make turkey dogs…they make everything else in the world with turkey.

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[charlabob]

Yup, ZG, they do make turkey dogs (and even tofurkey dogs!). And I know just the turkeys for the job.*

*Purposeful allusion to see just exactly how much paranoia there is in the world :-) Come on, kiddies — go for it!

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[Anonymous]

Now this is maturity!!

So, just to get the facts straight (no pun intended), but I have asked socl, Bayou, Kayleigh, meg, missaudreyhorne and Zenguy all the same question without getting an answer.

So this leads me to this final conclusion/question: How can you possibly get upset when you feel that people don’t relate to you, try to relate to you or understand you, when you are totally incapable of discussing your issues?

Maybe you are too quick to judge people as “intolerant” when, really, you’re not giving people a chance.

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[JanS]

well,NR, I suggest that you really do meet with socl sometime. He’s full of wisdom, and I think a face to face may get you an answer that helps more than one on here that may be misunderstood…just a thought. He has offered…maybe you should send an e-mail, or have him e-mail you , and have that proverbial cuppa.

And…another thought…maybe you haven’t got an answer because these people aren’t quite clear what you want to hear? I certainly don’t quite understand it…and I think it’s the kind of question that you may get a different answer from each one of these people..really.

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[Anonymous]

So now there is no answer? Or there are several answers?

Ok. I’m gonna break it down.

socl explained that heterosexism was prevalent in the LGBT thread. I asked that he show me where (because, after reading about heterosexism, I couldn’t find where it surfaced). He never answered.

I then asked everyone else to explain to me how questioning the exclusivity of the LGBT get-together was an example of heterosexism.

No one has answered me. I didn’t realize this question would be so difficult. But if you are going to throw “isms” around, you better be able to back them up.

That isn’t happening.

And, last I checked, this is a public forum where discussions and debates are allowed to take place. What is all this about taking it off the forum? Just answer the G**damn question!

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[JanS]

OK…here’s a challenge then to the people she has named…give the woman an answer, and be done with it :)

BTW…I found the wikipedia info on heterosexism interesting…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosexism

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[Anonymous]

Jan, I just finished reading that entire entry myself. I was particularly struck by these definitions:

Heterosexism as a set of beliefs and attitudes relies on a core tenet according to which homosexuality and bisexuality do not normally exist and, as such, constitute illnesses or deviant behaviors.

Heterosexism is a set of beliefs and attitudes based on the presumption that everyone is heterosexual or that heterosexual people and relationships are superior to homosexual and bisexual people and relationships.

Got to say, If I was being accused of that, I’d be a little motivated to press on, too. I don’t think anyone here has ever expressed an attitude remotely like that. I think to even apply it to this discussion waters down the whole meaning and seriousness of the issue.

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[cookiemonster]

New Resident-

Hello…I enter the conversation after much discussin with my partner, Meg, who has filled me in on the entire bizarro debacle of people trying to give you information and you seemingly refusing or being unable to hear it, see it, smell it, or accept it. Hmmmm….sounds a little like the response of a person so embedded in their privilege that it is difficult to even believe another person’s explanation of reality.

Now, do not get me wrong…as a white, raised upper middle-class, currently able bodied/minded, US born, hyper-educated queer girl…I was born and bred into my share of unearned privileges (NR-that means privileges that I did nothing to earn; e.g. being presumed as intelligent and capable simply for showing up white). So…I’m not pointing the finger at you as the ONLY privileged person on the WSblog or the planet for that matter.

Rather, my point is that our social/cultural positions (i.e. race, class, gender, ability, religion) bring with them a discursive and material history…and this preceeds our existence in the world (e.g. history of Black slavery, segregation, lynching, redlining; or a history of genocide, broken treaties, stolen lands/bodies, induced poverty; or a history of criminality, police brutality, harassment for gender expression, bashing, murder, etc). For those of us with privileged social positions/identities we too inherit this history (e.g. a history of FHA loans allowing for new home purchase following WWII, history of celebration of our relationships and our marriages, not to mention the actual right to marry, etc.) Get my point….those of us with privileged identities can deny that these particular histories and discursive practices exist and persist, but we are wrong.

You see, when we are privileged by a particular social identity, we don’t always see or understand our privilege. Much like you, NR, you cannot see nor understand all the fabulous answers that the people on this forum have given you. You don’t see it or believe it because it is not happening to you. Well guess what my friend….heterosexism is alive and well and living within all of us. Yes, all of us. How can we possibly escape it? We are taught it, trained it, force fed it every single day.

Want some examples? OK. Here we go: Your inability to believe anyone’s experience other than your own experience when it comes to what it is like to live as a gender variant or queer person in the US is a fabulous example of heterosexism.

Simply asking the question about why the “exclusivity” re: the lgbtq meet up, in my mind is not so much heterosexist as it is ignorant; ignorant of the very existence of discrimination and oppression. Your continual discounting of other people’s words, emotions, thoughts, insights, and your carrying on with your insipid claim that ‘no one has answered your simple question’ is my friend heterosexist behavior in that you assume that there is a level playing field for all sexualities and genders and so everyone should co-mingle all the time.

Have you ever been threatened in a restroom because of your gender expression? Have you ever been stared at or refused service because you were holding hands with another woman? Have you ever been told you deserve to die from AIDS because that’s was f*ggots deserve? Have you ever been physically abused and then kicked out of your home because you liked the “wrong sex?” Have you ever been excommunicated from a church because your sexuality prohibited your ability to have faith? Have you ever been murdered by a fellow classmate?

These are just some of the many ways that extreme heterosexism plays out interpersonally. You are doing it in a bit less of an extreme fashion, but a hurtful and frustrating one nonetheless.

I’m sorry you don’t like the answers you are getting, but make no mistake about it, people have been answering your ignorant question.

If you want some resources, check this page out and others: http://www.qcenter.washington.edu

If you think no one can back up their claims of “isms,” then I find you terribly, terribly protected by your fierce denial and solace in your privilege. No one here is being a “victim”…they are simply telling you that despite what you may think…the playing field is not equal. And, what’s more, people are victimized by isms….so quit throwing that neo-capitalistic, pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps-and-act-like-a-good-individualistic American bullsh*t around like it means something. All it does is place the responsibility for discrimination and oppression at the feet of those most targetted by it.

We are in this sh*t together…we are all multiply positioned….meaning we have some areas wherein we experience privilege and others where we experience a legacy and a current experience of oppression. We are complex….and this is a complex issue. I think that is why many folks are inviting you to talk with them outside this forum. They are genuinely interested in connecting with you and creating some shared understanding.

that’s all for now….just couldn’t take it anymore.

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[JanS]

and…I do have 2 cents…why should anyone that is different than you be required to “discuss their issues” so you can “understand”. We all have our issues, and some are private. People in the LGBT community shouldn’t have to discuss their “issues” in a public forum just because you want them to. Lives are private. If they want to share with you it should be on a one to one basis. That’s why I suggested that you really do meet with socl.

I’m not required to share my issues with anyone “so they can understand”. Nor are you. So..asking the LGBT community over and over again why they aren’t sharing does smack a little of heterosexism. Forget the label of LGBT…insert the term human being, or human community…makes things a little more equal.This would be a longer thread than it’s become if we all started to state our “issues” to make you happy. Does that make sense? They don’t have to justify their existence to you. And you are making a big deal of it because “they” won’t. You are setting “them” apart from the rest of the community in that way.

They never required exclusivity in their original meet-up. They simply asked nicely if perhaps that first time they could have it just be their particular community, because there may have been some who wanted to attend without being “outed”, so to speak, to the forum people in general. No one ever said you couldn’t go. You could have, and still can, if you want. I never really did understand why you made a big deal of that request..it was pretty straightforward, but was definitely left open.

You haven’t made a big deal of dog owners who want to meet up…or crafts persons who want to meet up, or gardeners who want to meet up and get to know other gardeners., or older women, or younger women, or whoever wants to meet up. They might want to have their own little meeting the first time, too, and then open it to everyone, but I’m sure that they would welcome you to the initial meeting. By dwelling over and over on this LGBT thing, you are giving the impression that you have a problem with that particular community. It may be a false assumption that those other people are making, but nevertheless, it’s there, and that smacks of heterosexism. It may be totally wrong but it’s how you’re being perceived because you go on and on ad infinitum about it, even when people have tried to explain. I’m going to ask again…does any of this make sense?

People are annoyed because they’re perceiving you in a certain way (that may be totally untrue).I think that’s why I suggested that you really do meet with Socl…it may help you to understand. I suppose you can go on demanding on here as long as you want, but that face to face thing is much more productive. To clarify, yes, this is a public forum, but things written sometimes don’t come across as well as things said in an across the table conversation. And I never thought it was a “Republican” thing…that would be too easy. Even some of us Democrats aren’t your “typical Democrats”. We are as diverse of a group as you feel you are.

my 2 cents..well, let’s make that 8 cents…inflation, you know. OK…my hidey hole is calling again :)

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