Home › Forums › Open Discussion › Incredible night for Romney.
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October 9, 2012 at 7:49 pm #773057
DBPMember>>The only difference is I don’t hear republicans talking about leaving if Obama wins and I heard a lot of that from democrats if Bush won. Well, he did and no one left.
I left for Canada during the Bush years, but then I came back.
“How was your vacation?” they said.
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Phew! Still can’t get that stupid metric system outta my head.
How much does a meter of gasoline cost?
–A lot more than you think!
October 10, 2012 at 4:06 am #773058
redblackParticipantsmitty: i’m not complaining about the latest pew poll. polls are screwy, they always have been, and there are anomalies. (lies, damned lies, and statistics, dontcha know.) there were plenty of polls in ’08 that gave mccain a fair chance at this point, and he lost to obama by 5 points or so.
and i have yet to hear the MSM admit that they regularly screwed up the ’08 election polling and analytics.
furthermore, i don’t think obama flunked that debate last week, despite what the “liberal media” has been saying – even on marxist socialist NBC. i think obama was articulate and presidential, and anyone who studies debates has to give obama points for stating his argument gracefully. lord willard, on the other hand, looked like he was barely constrained from throttling POTUS.
…in my opinion.
i also think that obama tried to go after the failure of republican voodoo economic policies, but that lord willard refused to engage, opting instead for vague platitudes about freedom and taxes.
and i think that the american public saw it pretty clearly.
October 10, 2012 at 4:15 am #773059
redblackParticipantbostonman:
i read exactly what you said, and i understood it perfectly.
and you’re right: there are variables in unemployment numbers.
but you have to realize that sometimes – maybe once in a great while – those variables might point to a liberal president affecting positive economic numbers. i know it seems weird, in light of all of wall street’s “uncertainty,” especially with that 14,000-point DJ 30.
but like i’ve asked in other threads – and i’ve received no answer for my efforts – why is it that reagan was such an economic wizard and obama is a failure when their unemployment numbers are almost identical?
maybe we should talk about how reagan reclassified the military as part of the domestic work force to bolster his employment numbers overnight.
and if you’re going to counter with an argument about GDP, then you should also look at the size of government spending relative to GDP between those two administrations.
if those are your criteria… if reagan was your ideal economic genius president… then you should vote for obama.
because lord willard is more like he-who-cannot-be-named than he is like pope reagan.
October 10, 2012 at 5:04 pm #773060
BostonmanMemberI didn’t vote for Reagan, mainly because I was only 8 years old when he took office. I am not going to counter with any arguements about GDP. Macroeconomic policy was different in the 80’s though. Nowadays this is a global economy where the shipment of goods and ease of overseas manufacturing is simple.
Reagan wasn’t an economic genius, he was a good foreign policy president. Clinton was a better economic president than Reagan but partly because of the growth in the technology sector coinciding with his presidency.
What I can’t stand is people bitching about tax policy when they are the ones who could change it. I don’t walk around complaining about the car I drive since I could just go buy a new car. Complaining that people pay to little or to much or use loopholes when you are the guy who can help change it is insane.
If Obama gets back into office then good for him. That means the majority of the electoral college cast their votes for him based off the state numbers. So be it, I will still be here in 4 years god willing and hopefully as a country we have been able to dig ourselves out of the hole.
October 10, 2012 at 8:04 pm #773061
SmittyParticipant“why is it that reagan was such an economic wizard and obama is a failure when their unemployment numbers are almost identical?”
Will you please clarify?
I show the Reagan unemployment rate went from a high of 10.8 to 7.3 in November of his re-election year.
Obama went from a high of 10.0 to the current (soon to be revised!) 7.8%.
Reagan dropped the rate 33% (10.8-7.3)/10.8
Obama dropped the rate 22% (10.0-7.8)/10.0
That is a 50% difference – and doesn’t even get into the U4 (or whatever it’s called) that takes into account people who have given up looking for work. Maybe that is what you are referring to?
October 11, 2012 at 1:15 pm #773062
redblackParticipantbostonman:
Macroeconomic policy was different in the 80’s though. Nowadays this is a global economy where the shipment of goods and ease of overseas manufacturing is simple.
and you don’t see a problem with not manufacturing our own consumer goods, and shipping manufacturing jobs to low-labor-cost markets, and dropping our trade barriers so american companies can hire cheaper labor?
October 11, 2012 at 1:44 pm #773063
redblackParticipantsmitty:
that’s not a 50% difference. it’s an 11% difference. but i understand that you’re trying to imply that the job recovery under obama is only half as good.
as far as the numbers, i said they were almost identical. yes, reagan had a bigger change.
but he also fudged the numbers a bit by reclassifying various forms of labor and by calling any part-time job “full employment.”
there are a couple ways to look at the reagan/obama comparison. one way that reagan dropped unemployment was by hiring a metric boatload of federal contractors and growing the size and/or cost of government – all on the credit card. obama has laid off federal workers and shrunk government, which is now at its lowest share of GDP in decades.
kind of self-contradictory of reagan, don’t you think? which of the following sentences is worse, in your mind?
“i’m from the government, and i’m here to help.”
or
“i’m from an overpriced contractor to the government, and i’m here to help.”
are those the kinds of jobs you want obama to (re)create? we’re seeing an increase in manufacturing in the u.s. for the first time since reagan (and congressional democrats) dropped our trade barriers. those are good jobs with good wages.
back to the topic, though, how will lord willard create jobs? will he grow government, bomb iran, and rack up more debt? or is he going to give us some more retail sales work and telemarketing busy-work for the producers of cheap consumer crap? or maybe inflate another housing bubble?
October 11, 2012 at 5:14 pm #773064
BostonmanMemberYes and no Redblack. If jeans or sneakers were still manufactured here then most people would be walking around naked because they would cost $300 for a pair. Global competition drives down prices for the consumer, basic economics.
The downside to that is there isn’t a world wide standard on pay and each country can determine how they want to work the labor laws. I suspect that those countries will eventually come around to paying people more money but it might take a generation.
I know you are in the trades so shipping manufacturing overseas is a big deal but without it most people of low income wouldn’t be able to even afford a part for their older car.
Now the no side. I don’t think NAFTA was a good idea. There should be consequences for shipping the jobs overseas. Trade should only be free is both sides are balances and we are not balanced with anyone except maybe parts of Europe.
October 11, 2012 at 5:36 pm #773065
SpodieMember“If jeans or sneakers were still manufactured here then most people would be walking around naked because they would cost $300 for a pair.”
Please direct us to the $300 jeans:
http://www.americansworking.com/clothingjeans.html
“manufacturing overseas is a big deal but without it most people of low income wouldn’t be able to even afford a part for their older car.”
If their job hadn’t have been sent overseas, they wouldn’t be low income. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Sam Walton became an unbelievably rich man by insisting that everything in his store was made in America. It works.
October 11, 2012 at 5:43 pm #773066
SmytheMemberI’m presently wearing American made sneakers, jeans and t shirt. Definitey came in under $300 for the lot. It’s those japanese jeans that will cost you. I buy quality, and a lot of the time us made is quality, because I don’t want to have to replace goods manufactured in sweatshops annually with more goods manufactured in sweatshops.
October 11, 2012 at 5:47 pm #773067
SpodieMember“or is he going to give us some more retail sales work and telemarketing busy-work for the producers of cheap consumer crap?”
Ever notice that the list of Bain Capital “successes” are minimum-wage jobs for high-school kids? Burger King, Movie theater, Toys R Us? All of those are, of course, before they figured out the Gordon Gekko leveraged buyout liquidation….Cash in on fees for sticking taxpayers with the bill.
It was an incredible night for Romney, he was lying on all cylinders. Steve Colbert put it best: It looked like he tried caffeine for the first time. He’ll have something to reminisce about when he’s watching the next State of the Union.
October 11, 2012 at 5:56 pm #773068
kootchmanMemberSam Walton became an unbelievably rich man by insisting that everything in his store was made in America. It works
They got incredibly bigger and wealthier after Sam died and they went international. But if you think it’s still there to be had… roll up those sleeves and start a “American Products Only” store…
October 11, 2012 at 5:59 pm #773069
kootchmanMemberHey spodie… when you cross the Bridge.. look to your right…. that would be Nucor Steel…. Bain Capital and Mitt Romney jobs. Jobs btw.. that the federal government couldn’t save with bail out money … Bethlehen/US Steel et al… those are not retail minimum wage jobs.
October 11, 2012 at 6:50 pm #773070
miwsParticipant… roll up those sleeves and start a “American Products Only” store…
Ah! A kootchism! (One spell-check correction option, for which, is masochism)
The broad assumption, that anyone that wishes, has the physical, mental, an capital quals to just open up their own business!
Mike
October 11, 2012 at 6:53 pm #773071
SpodieMember“They got incredibly bigger and wealthier after Sam died and they went international.”
Destroying thousands upon thousands of middle class jobs to turn multimillionaire into billionaires. That’s great for America, eh? You one of the types that pine for the “good old days” of the Industrial Revolution?
“look to your right…. that would be Nucor Steel…. Bain Capital and Mitt Romney jobs.”
You actually mean Bain Capital(25%), who was BROUGHT INTO the deal by GE Capital AND two other investors (75%).
When Bain is actually RUNNING the deal and a majority stakeholder, you get GS Technologies:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/06/us-campaign-romney-bailout-idUSTRE8050LL20120106
“The mill was padlocked and some 750 people lost their jobs. Workers were denied the severance pay and health insurance they’d been promised, and their pension benefits were cut by as much as $400 a month.
What’s more, a federal government insurance agency had to pony up $44 million to bail out the company’s underfunded pension plan. Nevertheless, Bain profited on the deal, receiving $12 million on its $8 million initial investment and at least $4.5 million in consulting fees.”
Gordon Gekko for President. What could go wrong?
October 11, 2012 at 7:08 pm #773072
SmittyParticipant” I buy quality, and a lot of the time us made is quality, because I don’t want to have to replace goods manufactured in sweatshops annually with more goods manufactured in sweatshops.”
Sent from my iphone……..
October 11, 2012 at 7:09 pm #773073
SmittyParticipantOctober 11, 2012 at 7:53 pm #773074
kootchmanMemberClinton math… thats how dems roll. Funny, though, Americans flock to Wal Mart… and they are the nations largest employer. Now, do you think the average Wal Mart worker has a skill set to make 150K? That’s what our public schools pump out… a lotta “supersize it”? workers. Get on that Romney education wagon and vote for charter schools!
It’s up, it’s running, and Bain shared a risk pool… I don’t care that Bain made money, or GE Capital.. they saved what couldn’t be saved. with capital and managerial talent. It was triage… Bethlehem was already shut when Bain came along…. it is open again because of them and the capital provided to purchase new equipment, new arc furnaces from Germany.. or did you forget Bethlehem had sold the furnances and equipment to China..? They are now a profitable company… very profitable. That pension fund was underfunded long before the rescure came along .. the Federal Pension Guaranty paid off what Beth/US Steel couldn’t fund because they were run into the ground.
See? and no federal stimulus dollars… no taxpayers took on the risk.. Bain saw value… and made it happen.
October 11, 2012 at 7:56 pm #773075
kootchmanMemberThere were significant obstacles: The steel industry is highly capital-intensive, the American steel industry was hardly a hot startup market, and the venture would be staggeringly expensive — well beyond their own means, and those of most investors. According to a 1996 interview with Busse in the Fort Wayne Journal Gazette, early meetings with traditional investment bankers were unsuccessful; there was little interest in supporting a new, independent steel venture with the hundreds of millions of dollars that would be needed before any mills would even become operational. But Busse persevered and eventually found two firms willing to provide the millions in initial funding: GE Capital and Bain Capital.
October 11, 2012 at 8:18 pm #773076
SpodieMember“Clinton math… thats how dems roll.”
Facts are facts. Sorry they don’t fit the false reality you choose to create for yourself.
GE did a great job with Nucor.
The part of the article that you conviently neglected to quote: “Two strategic investors were already committed to providing half of the startup funding, but GE could only provide another quarter. Seaman suggested the deal to Bain, which agreed to supply the other quarter of the financing needed”
I don’t begrudge them their profit. You are giving Bain credit for someone else’s deal. You are being dishonest.
Bain did what Bain does with GS Technologies.
“Now, do you think the average Wal Mart worker has a skill set to make 150K?” Ah, the ‘false dilemma’ logical fallacy. Do you honestly believe that the only job options are Wal-Mart and $150k?
October 11, 2012 at 8:27 pm #773077
SmytheMemberSorry smitty, not everyone hates America like you and your right wing extremist “friends”.
October 11, 2012 at 8:31 pm #773078
miwsParticipantOctober 11, 2012 at 8:46 pm #773079
BostonmanMemberYa Spodie I clicked on one of the links in your website, Todd Shelton jeans. $156 for a pair of jeans? I pay $30 now so my statement still stands. To get the same quality I am buying overseas I will spend 5 times as much if its made here in the USA.
“If their job hadn’t have been sent overseas, they wouldn’t be low income. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
Yes, they would be creating a product no one can afford because it costs 5 times as much to manufacture. I guess we could just pay every $100 an hour then we could all afford everything we wanted right? Why didn’t I think of that sooner.
People who try to argue that the US should still be in the manufacturing industry don’t have a grasp on the global economy and supply and demand. Manufacturing is an old business line, its time for the US to create new and innovative business lines that can’t be done in other countries.
Look how well solar panels worked out. China can build them far cheaper than the US. Shouldn’t that be a good thing? Don’t you think that if China can get more homes on solar power because the product is cheaper is a good thing? Or, should it still be made in the US where they can’t compete globally and no one can afford it.
Remember, if manufacturing is done in the US they need to compete on a global scale now. We aren’t a closed society.
October 11, 2012 at 8:47 pm #773080
SmittyParticipant“Sorry smitty, not everyone hates America like you and your right wing extremist “friends”.”
Huh?
I was just commenting on your made-in-the-USA-and not-in-a-sweatshop rant. Pro-union, pro-democrat(ic), anti-wal~mart (but pro costco) liberals typically own sweatshop manufactured iphones and I was wondering if you fall into that group.
Nothing to do with patriotism – which I though was off-limits to questioning 6-7 years ago…..
October 11, 2012 at 9:16 pm #773081
SmytheMemberYou certianly make a lot of assumptions. I do pity you though for thinking the world you live in is so black-and-white. I also feel sorry for you for your anger towards your fellow American.
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