Hot for Hillary

[JoB]

rs261..

btw.. i got sidetracked…. back to the secret service protection issue which you so handily dismissed…

i guess i need to repeat that Hillary was not offered protection because she already had it…

no.. female candidates are not generally the target of assassination..

but then black candidates haven’t been either.

this woman has had more than her fair share of hate generating publicity in the press… and is very much a target…

If you think the kuklux clan would be a viable threat to Obama,

you have to acknowledge that radical conservatives.. those who think nothing of bombing abortion clinics and killing the women in them as well as doctors.. might be an equal threat to that woman.. as reviled as she has been in the Republican press.

and thanks.. it’s good to be back…

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[JoB]

kayleigh..

i am sorry.. i don’t meant to make you lose your coherence… and i bet you didn’t lose it as much as you thought:) you are generally very coherent.

i am just presenting the alternative view…

and there is a viable alternative view that is not being presented in the media …

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[charlabob]

Long rebuttal edited, because there is really no point — and because others are presenting alternatives quite well.

Do we believe that this fight will continue through to the convention?

Does anyone believe that the decisions of the Rules Committee on Saturday with regard to seating Michigan and Florida’s delegations will go unchallenged?

I don’t think it’s a done deal what they’ll decide, by the way. I did a bit of checking and 3 of the “no known endorsers” are old DLC people — likely to tilt toward Clinton, who has an 11-8 edge with the known endorsers.

BTW, I do know where the other side is coming from — I was one of the rare people who, in 1992, begged Jerry Brown not to drop out before the convention. There’s so much similarity between how the hard-core Clinton people feel now and how some of us felt in 1992. When Governor Clinton made a special trip back to Arkansas to preside over the execution of a mentally retarded man, I somehow knew his definition of “putting people first” wasn’t the same as mine. :-) )

Co-Chairs – no endorsement

Alexis Herman (co-chair, Washington , D.C. )

James Roosevelt, Jr. (co-chair, Massachusetts )

Members – Clinton supporters (11)

Hartina Flournay (DC)

Donald Fowler (SC)

Harold Ickes, Jr. (DC)

Alice Huffman (CA)

Ben Johnson (DC)

Elaine Kamarck (MA)

Eric Kleinfeld (DC)

Mona Pasquil (CA)

Mame Reiley (VA)

Garry Shay (CA)

Elizabeth Smith (DC)

Members – Obama supporters (8)

Martha Fuller Clark (NH)

Carol Khare Fowler (SC)

Janice Griffin (MD)

Thomas Hynes (IL)

Allan Katz (FL)

Sharon Stroschein (SD)

Sarah Swisher (IA)

Everett Ward (NC)

Members – no known endorsement (9)

Donna Brazille (DC)

Mark Brewer (MI)

Ralph Dawson (NY)

Yvonne Gates ( NV)

Alice Germond (DC) – DNC Secretary

Jaime Gonzalez, Jr. (TX)

David McDonald (WA)

Jerome Wiley Segovia (VA)

Michael Steed (MD)

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[Anonymous]

I think people who link Muslims to terrorism is a disadvantage for him. Not the religion itself. And Hillary did not answer, I don’ think so. She said no he’s not. Paused, and then added “as far as I know”. She is well acquainted with the man and knows he’s a Christian belonging to a Christian church.

Again, what rock would you have to be living under to not be aware of the desire for him to be painted as an Muslim extremist? She has no obligation to defend him, but she doesn’t have to help the Republican machine.

By the way, I have watched and listened to Obama being asked about different faux paus of Hillary’s. He has made a flippant remark here and there, but he has also repeatedly defended her. I can’t say the reverse is true for Hillary.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Jt,

Besides defending her. He has spoken highly of her.

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[beachdrivegirl]

It isnt about blaming anyone or anybody on why CLinton will not win this primary season. It was a primary season and as far as I know everyone has their own thoughts and their own minds to make their own decisions. You can not blame it on the media, or the Democratic National Committee for Michigan and Florida, sexism, or my favorit the bullying that is being done (B. Clintons quote). By putting blame in places it does not belong is playing the victim card. And we dont elect victims into office we elect leaders. The only person Hillary has to blame for how she is not going to be the Democratic Presidential nominee is herself.

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[JoB]

JT..

and you have a problem with her answer because….

she said he was a christian.. she knows he attends a christian church.. and i am quite sure she knew which Christian church… but “as far as she knows” is probably quite accurate assessment of her knowledge of his personal beliefs…

the only way she could know more about his personal beliefs is if he also attended the Christian study/prayer group in the Senate that she attends so that she had the opportunity to learn more about his personal beliefs.

did he attend that prayer group? i don’t know the answer to that, do you?

I suspect the answer is no.. because it is likely he would have brought it up over and over by now if he had.

We don’t know whether Obama ever flirted with the Muslim religion. We know his fathers were both muslim. We know that many black young men embrace the muslim religion while they are tying to find their heritage… as he was. We also know that he participated in the muslim led million man march…

and then quickly denounced all muslim associations after his participation.

He tells us he is not and has never been a muslim.

We know that he attended a Christian church for 20 years..

but he also tells us he either wasn’t paying attention or chose to discount significant parts of his pastor’s consistent message…

What we know from that is that he attended church and that he participated in the political activities in his church… But, do we know that Obama is a a Christian? No.. without other evidence, what we know is what he says he is.

Hillary wasn’t asked if he attended church. She was asked if he is a Christian.. and that is something she takes seriously.

Could she have chosen to answer differently? Probably.. and she probably did a 100 times for that one time that she answered honestly…

did she do so for political reasons? Who knows. You don’t. I don’t either. Reason tells me she didn’t because she is smart enough to know just how that would play out… and because it was not her consistent answer to what had to be a consistent question. I think she was just tired and got caught off guard.

but that is what i think.. not what i know.

It is true that being tarred with an extremist muslim brush because of his race is part of Obama’s political baggage…. but it is his political baggage.. not hers.

Nothing she said at any point in time could have had any substantial influence on how that will play out if he is the nominee.

so why the anger at Hillary?

As for Obama’s standing up for her…

both candidates have made the occasional flippant remark and still repeatedly defended the other…

you can’t say that is true for Hillary because that is not the kind of news coverage she gets… you have to actually read the full text of her interviews to get any other kind of coverage.

But if Obama is such a stand up guy…. i must have missed the comment he made about the inappropriateness of Jay Leno’s joke accompanied by a photoshopped picture that Hillary could better influence the superdelegates with augmented breasts and cleavage…

if he watched any news coverage of the Oregon primaries.. he did see it. It played over and over for hours.

Or do you think it was an appropriate political joke to present about a female candidate in her 60s and he should have had no comment?

Making a comment about the inappropriateness of that one photo would have been politically expedient for him… it would have gone a long way to diffuse the middle aged female anger that was reported after the continued presentation of that joke…

and i dont’ think he did it.

Clearly there is a difference when it comes to expectations that senator Obama will stand up for others than when the same standard is applied to Senator Clinton.

It might be good to ask why.

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[JoB]

hillary doesn’t paint herself as a victim.

I don’t paint her as a victim.

but.. nice ploy to dismiss her once again…

i think the unwillingness to admit that the media has influenced this primary

and the unwillingness to ask tough questions about our own sexism as well as our racism

says far more about what we can expect from an Obama candidacy than anyone is willing to examine…

and i don’t think that bodes well for his chances this fall.

because the republicans will certainly be exploiting all of those issues we are not wiling to acknowledge.

When John McCain.. who does not even mention women in his campaign and certainly is not in any way a champion of women’s rights. .. looks better to embittered women than Senator Obama…

Senator Obama has failed abysmally in his message.

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[beachdrivegirl]

On the other hand though Obama has never said McCain has more experience than his opponent and is more electable. Which Hillary did say. He also did not respond to the degrading questions that were being asked during the debate. He reminded everyone that we were not there to talk s**t about his opponent, but talk about the issues. Where as Hillary decided it was a great opportunity to move from the issues and state false facts about Obama.

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[Kayleigh]

Ah, I just needed a nap. I could get used to this vacation thing.

Next week I am out of town, which will be great. But it’s nice to take a nap in the middle of the day :-)

I did read an interesting piece–I can’t remember where–about the violent imagery used in relation to Hillary. There are still those misogynists out there, for sure.

But they lynched something like 3,000 African Americans in this country, and MLK was indeed assassinated. Not really the same thing as comparing Hillary to Glen Close in “Fatal Attraction”.

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[beachdrivegirl]

“When John McCain.. who does not even mention women in his campaign and certainly is not in any way a champion of women’s rights. .. looks better to embittered women than Senator Obama”-once again opinion not fact. Although for weeks now most polls were showing mixed results as to whether or not women will vote for McCain or Obama. Suprisinly just this week it has been said that Obama is leading the polls compared to McCain with the women vote, competiting evenly with the Catholic vote.Although he is doing poorly with Clintons *key* supporters whites without college degrees.

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[Anonymous]

I’m not angry with Hillary at all. I actually have a great deal of respect for her public service and accomplishments. For years I’ve wanted her to run for president and win. She ran a bad campaign. Period. Maybe she got bad advise, but she chose to use it.

What I am annoyed with is the segment of her supporters that have projected all of their personal mis-treatments and perceptions on to her. They feel like a vote against her is a vote against all that they have worked for. There is a sense of personal betrayal that supersedes all rational thought.

There is this demand of Obama supporters to talk about the issues and prove he is worthy. Fine. But it’s kind of difficult when all you here is *you’re being mean, you’re being mean*. How do you communicate with that mind set?

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[charlabob]

Most of the “key” WV demographic touted by Clinton supporters has not supported a Democratic presidential candidate since the “Reagan Revolution.” These are the same “democrats” who voted for Bush twice.

I happen to believe that when these people can hear the Obama message, without filters, they will vote for him and, assuming we ever get there, we will win in surprising places. (Republican strategists, by the way, believe the same thing — that’s why they continue to tout Clinton’s candidacy.)

I happen to think it was a mistake not to campaign in West Virginia — but it’s an understandable one.

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[JoB]

Kayleigh…

you want to do the history thing?

it really is his story…

historically.. women (even women of privilege ) have been pretty much enslaved until the late 60s.

They weren’t typically bought and sold.. unless you consider marriage a sales agreement… since women effectively were their father’s (or oldest male relative’s ) property until they married and became their husband’s.

Black men had the right to own property and the right to vote long before women.

Until the 60s, women were highly unlikely to retain custody of their children if they divorced if their husband challenged custody… and didn’t win custody battles with male relatives (generally occurring when there was property to inherit) when they were widowed.

They weren’t lynched.. they were simply disgraced.. or threatened with disgrace… which left women few viable economic choices…

sexism is still very much a part of our culture and if it is acceptable to create violent pictures of women it is not so far a leap to actually do violence…

in fact, violence is still done to women every day far more often in their own homes than on the streets…

in some parts of our own culture it is considered acceptable to violently assault women for the shame they have brought to their family.. and i am not talking about muslim families.

If you want a real eye opener.. try asking your closest girlfriends how many of them were sexually assaulted before their teens by members of their own family or close family friends.

I am glad to say that those of you who are younger won’t get quite the responses i now get in my circle of female friends… but it is still a very real eye opener.

these are stories that aren’t told. We are fed the rosy picture of female domesticity without the lack of rights that came with it….

We are fed the exceptions to the rule.. and told very little about the real consequences to those who broke the rules to become the exceptions.

Women couldn’t report abuse without losing their reputations.. which until fairly recently have been crucial to their economic survival…

BTW.. just for a little perspective.. things started to change for women just about the time Martin Luther King was killed.

I still had to have written permission to work from the husband i was divorcing to get a job in 1971.

Martin Luther King was assassinated.

So were John F Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy… all in about the same time period.

All for advocating roughly the same ideas…

Death threats by extremist conservatives have been part of Hillary’s history for over 15 years…. some of those threats or advocacy for violence made publicly by radio hosts and bloggers…

But i can see why that could be written off as just.. comparing Hillary to Glen Close in “Fatal Attraction”

I am not saying Obama didn’t deserve the secret service protection he got.

I am simply saying that Hillary would have been given that protection as well for the very real threats she received… had she not already had the benefit of that protection…

But i think Kayleigh.. you did just honestly answer my question as to why Obama gets a pass…

It has something to do with the 3,000 African Americans lynched in this country….

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

if you listened to NPR over the weekend.. you too would have heard the story about the group of Hillary supporters who became quite public about not supporting Obama after last tuesday’s primary and it’s biased coverage.

In fact, i am surprised you missed it on any news source… female anger has been quite a topic on the news lately… I was vacationing in Friday Harbor without a television and i still heard a great deal about it.

What those women will ultimately do still remains to be seen.. but dismissing their anger or blaming Hillary for it won’t make it go away.

And i am sorry to inform you that Clinton’s key supporters are not just white women without college degrees…. and i can tell you from personal experience that we are getting more than a little p….d off about being portrayed that way.

Pat Schroeder had quite a bit to say about being lumped with undereducated white women last week.

Perhaps you should read her remarks… they certainly exceeded anything i could have said.

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[charlabob]

Pat Schroeder had quite a bit to say about being lumped with undereducated white women last week.

Sounds pretty damned elitist to me.

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[Kayleigh]

Jo, I honestly think you would defend Hillary no matter what she did. If they caught her stabbing a small animal, you would find a way to defend that. After all, men stab small animals all the time. And someone Obama rode a plane with once stabbed a small animal. And the animal probably deserved it because it was sexist. And everybody knows that animals like Socks the Cat were part of the vast right wing conspiracy.

Now you are reaching to justify the very worst thing that Hillary did: to raise the ugly possibility of harm to her opponent.

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[JoB]

JT..

you hit the nail on the head.. tho i think you have the perspective a little wrong…

i know you were talking about comments about Obama when you said..

“*you’re being mean, you’re being mean*. How do you communicate with that mind set?”

but i would ask you….

how you do communicate with that mind set?

She’s a liar.. she lies.. she cheats.. she dirty… she is stealing the election from the people… she is a war monger… she is a closet republican… She is in bed with republicans.. she is no better than a republican… she can’t even run her family… she was no more than a wife…

do any of those phrases ring a bell? I heard each and every one of them at the democratic caucus in this state… and those are the phrases that were fit to print.

I don’t think it is so much that Clinton ran a bad campaign.. but that the media created a hostile environment that allowed Obama to campaign on Clinton’s platform.

it is no coincidence that there are frequent comparisons between Obama’s campaign and Bill Clinton’s campaign… Take a good look at it and you will find a great deal of comparison…

Add in a lot of “she’s a racist.. they’re racists…”

Throw in the bloggers.. and heck.. you have a winning combination…

Talk about taking apage out of the Krl Rove playbook. spend an hour or so on Huffington’s site with a critical eye and you might have a hard time distinguishing it from similar republican sites…

and she has the full cooperation of the Obama campaign.

The problem is that most of the media campaign.. both in regular media news and on the blogs has been an anti-Hillary campaign.

so while everyone thinks they know a great deal about Hillary, the same can’t be said of Obama. This leaves us with a possible candidate that noone knows…

and quite frankly his campaign has offended enough that many aren’t interested in getting to know him now.

His strategy worked great for a primary…

Will it work this fall? and will you like who you have become if it does?

good questions…

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[charlabob]

OK, we want to talk about anger? I am a white woman of exactly the Clinton demographic and I am mad as hell–that Clinton and a *small minority* of her supporters are making women look like idiots and making it likely that the Democratic party will lose an election they should have won.

Notice I acknowledge that it is a small minority of her supporters — but, because the story is “interesting” and because they have a lot of clout, they appear to be a majority.

I have no idea what that does to the notion of media bias. But I also know that if anyone who claims to be a progressive isn’t railing against the absolute PASS that the media is giving McCain, they should sit down, shut up, look around and think about what they’re doing. That’s where the damned media bias is.

Every time I see Geraldine Ferraro, I want to throw something. Yeah, a lot of horrible s**t happened to women. And still does. And to me. And that doesn’t have a damned thing to do with entitlement or with who is the best candidate. (Interesting that the major whiner about sexism from the Clinton campaign is that little old bubba, Bill.)

I am angry because this is desperate BS that is destroying the Democratic party’s possibility of winning an election that should be a run-away.

I do not doubt that the small minority of very angry women are, in fact, very angry. And that they are entitled to that feeling. But the rest of us are to call BS on this whole thing — as I do.

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[Kayleigh]

My armchair psychoanalysis of Hillary, worth what you paid for it: ;-)

She is stuck in a place where she alternately plays the 3 sides of the triangle: Victim, Perpetrator, and Rescuer. She plays whichever one she thinks will work to get her what she wants.

First, she’s a victim of the media, of sexism, of Obama, of Obama supporters, of anything.

Then, she victimizes Obama with her very ill conceived remarks, ads, gutter campaigning, etc.

Then she offers to rescue the people that the Republicans (and Obama) have victimized, what with all the arugula-eating elitism and outsourcing and all.

Maybe politics in 2008 has come to this, to a large extent. But Obama offers the hope of another way,a way of personal power and hope and transcending the hate and pettiness.

He has his work cut out for him.

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[beachdrivegirl]

You are absolutely right JoB Hillary is a Goddess and the *perfect* person to represent the Democratic party for the next election because she is the only won who will get the womens vote. These women, that including my mom, all had arranged marriages.( I was shocked to learn this myself here my parents had this love story about how they met when they were 16-but she grew up in that generation and JoB said it so it must be…)And furthermore she should get the nomination because not only has she not run a winning campaign or mismanaged her finances but because the majority of voters out there just are elitist bullys that were just plain biased towards her. Because we have no idea what is best for us. I am not quite sure how I didnt see the bigger picture in time to go to the Cuacus for her…(Yes the cuacus that President Bill Clinton does not think should count now.)I am going to start campaigning for her now….

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[JoB]

kayleigh..

Hillary didn’t raise the ugly possibility of harm to her opponent.

The media did. The backlash from the Obama campaign did. The blogs did. They chose to make a lot more out of her comment than was in it.

Hillary simply defended her choice to stay in the race by naming another very popular candidate who still had not earned his party’s nomination by June.

But then this won’t be the first thing that Hillary has been accused of that has become part of the folklore of what passes as truth here…

I am not the least bit blind to Hillary’s faults.. and to say that i would defend her for harming animals totally ignores the fact that i have taken two dogs into my home who would have otherwise been euthanized and have gone to both the expense and the actual work of providing a safe environment for them and for my neighbors…

That was an exceedingly bad choice of examples.

But that you would even choose such an example does say a great deal about how you view Hillary… and why i have spent the last few months doing little more than defending her.

there are things i know about Hillary that i think are indefensible.. but i am not about to share any more of that here because i don’t have the same freedom to talk about what Obama has done that i find equally indefensible…

The response to Hillary’s right to even campaign on this site has stilled a great deal of what could have been passionate and positive conversation..

As for who would defend their candidate no matter what they did.. i think you don’t have to look further than the mirror for that..

it is really telling that the only way anyone replies to any question about Obama is by attacking Hillary…

And yet every time i point out that this is an anti-Hillary campaign i get a chorus of boohoos for her presenting herself as a victim…

I hear a lot of “i respect her, but”…

and then i am treated to one more interpretation of the intentions behind something she has said or done… which are always construed as malicious.

after all, she is a woman who will stab puppies…

What i don’t hear is any respect for her right to be a candidate…

I also don’t hear any respect for the rights of others to hold opinions differing from your own.

That example was far from respectful Kayleigh…

and yes.. i do expect better from you. I suspect that you expect better from yourself.

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl..

you are verging on being abusive…

i don’t know how old your mom is.. but from your age i would guess that she was married some time after the return of World War II vets made a real change in the perception of romance in this country.

There is no other factor i can think of that had such an impact on women’s lives.. and ultimately on yours…. than World War II.

I would guess she was married after women got a taste of what it was like to hold jobs and make decisions on their own… and then were told to go back to the kitchens like good little girls and let men make decisions for them when their men returned from the war…

of course, if they didn’t have a man.. they were supposed to find one.. because they sure weren’t going to be paid a living wage for their work… widowed or not… they weren’t even paid equally to men during the war…

In fact, I would guess she was even married after 1960… because i am the child of a woman who only got to watch her much older sisters taste freedom during the War… I wasn’t married until 1969… and i suspect my grown children are substantially older than you…

You might ask her about some of the things i related before you decide that if my mouth is moving it must be a lie…

You might actually read some of the wide body of literature that is finally surfacing about what it was has been like to be female in this society..

in fact.. even more entertaining is to look at a history of law right here in Washington… which by the way.. was known for being one of the more progressive places to be a woman.

I am positive you would find even an honest conversation with your mother pretty enlightening…

if she is much younger than i.. she will have only heard about the abuses i lived in their last years…

but i am sure she will still have plenty of stories to tell.

we all do.

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[Anonymous]

OMG!! I love Hilary too!! She spells her name with one L though, Hilary Swank that is.

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[JoB]

Kayleigh..

just for fun..

how is all this transcending supposed to take place?

Or is it that America needs to transcend it’s feelings of disenfranchisement when a much smarter and wiser and better Obama decides what’s best for them?

Labeling people as racist or ignorant isn’t a good promising start at anything resembling national conversation…

Most people don’t like being talked down to..

as many of you have been so willing to point out to me when i tried to provide an alternative point of view…

or another way of saying that..

when i told you what you didn’t want to hear…

toodles.. i have errands.

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