Hot for Hillary

[JoB]

Who would have thought it would take a poll stating that roughly 30% of Clinton supporters would not choose Obama in a general election to bring the party’s attention to the roughly half who still support Hillary?

Worse yet.. those 30% represented the workers that the party has counted on in every election to turn out the vote…

Imagine their surprise when they found that there really was a place too far that they could push the faithful.

suddenly the calls for Hillary to step aside and fall on her sword for their hot young hope have dwindled… and press attention has turned to the possible benefits of an extended race.

Imagine that.

Now imagine she wins. yup. wins.

She keeps campaigning, her supporters come out in ever larger numbers… she carries Pennsylvania with her message… the party finally realizes that stilling the voice of two states… disenfranchising voters.. might be a mistake.. they find a way to do-over or reach a compromise… and suddenly it doesn’t look so good for Obama…

stranger things have happened in politics.

Those same superdelegates who switched their allegiance to Obama haven’t yet heard from the other half of their constituency who feel that a superdelegate’s vote should be earned by the candidate.. not swayed by the electorate.

I am unashamedly hot for hillary..

i think she is the best woman for the job.. i think she represents true change.. a change from confrontational politics to collaborative politics… and i think her Senate history proves she is capable of reaching across the aisle to get things done.

i am off to a Hillary fundraiser/work party where for once.. we will be the vocal majority.

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[WSB]

Was that the signmaking party at Talarico’s? How did it go?

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[JoB]

yes, it was the signmaking party at Talaricos.

i took a camera and then the conversation was so lively I forgot to use it.

sorry about that TR:) it just points out once again why you are running the show … you would have paid attention to such minor details first:)

We were a small but dedicated group… (about half a dozen when i left very early… with more trickling in) and we weren’t all women… or all middle aged. In fact, our ringleader is definately a younger woman.

It was refreshing to be in a group of people who realize this is a process and who intelligently discussed the appeal of the Obama campaign, the party process, media reactions and local party politics. No sour grapes there:)

For those going to the Caucus on Saturday.. it looks like we will be getting a visit from a little democratic star power…. not the candidate.. but one of two pretty exciting proxies.

I really don’t enjoy these things, yet i am definately looking forward to this event.

This is just the first mini-caucus.. then they hold the larger one… then we have 45 delegates who will represent our state in Denver.

i may have missed one more in there somewhere… in fact i think i did.. the state caucus. i am not interested in going to Denver so i only really paid attention to what i will be doing.

A real reminder that this isn’t over till it’s over…

Obama delegates are actively campaigning to secure Independant and Clinton delegates for Obama in our state’s final count at all the delegate training meetings with the same “enthusiasm” they showed at our caucuses.

so much for the “will of the people” slogan.

To those delegates, that appears to mean only the will of the people who support Obama… the rest of us don’t count… or at least they hope we won’t:)

The Obama delegates were definately willing to bypass the will of the people (the caucus participants Clinton delegates represent) if it would earn them more delegates in the final 45.

So are Clinton delegates. We are just going about it with a little more subtlety… our ringleader carries thing like lists of Lobbyist donations to the Obama presidential campaign on her cellphone to use as ammunition against those who didn’t delve deeper than slogans:)

We will see… the caucus process hasn’t been unkind to Hillary in other states.. she has picked up at least 2 more delegates in the final shake out…

It will be interesting to see what happens here… remember Hillary did very well here in the popular vote.

And another interesting side note.. it appears the 34th district… our district… is a bit more Obama manic than most.

No surprise to me after our forum conversations:)

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[walfredo]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/TheNote/story?id=3105288&page=1

More great news for the Obama campaign. JoB- I do agree that you are hearing much more people suggesting Hillary should stay in the race, but pay attention to the details of what most of them are saying. She has a longshot chance, which is not the same as no chance. As such, she should stay in the race for her supporters- but if nothing significant changes in delegate count, and it goes to no chance… Then it will be time to drop out. Very, very few voices are saying that Hillary should challenge through the convention and try to override the selected nominee.

I happen to agree, that for unity, it would be a bad thing to force someone at of the race who has a chance at winning the nomination. But, I want to prepare you for how different the tone will be once we get through the next 3 primaries and 300 of the remaining 600 delegates are allocated, and half or more of them go to Obama, and he still leads by 165+ pledged delegates with less then 300 delegates left on the board.

I think the 34th district is probably the “anti-war latte sipping liberals” the media continues to report skew heavily to Mr. Obama…

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[JoB]

Walfredo…

do you honestly think that i or other Clinton supporters don’t have a clue as to the “tone” Obama supporters will adopt if Hillary doesn’t leave the race?

You forget.. i have been participating in this conversation on this forum since the beginning. And the “tone” got so viciously negative that i felt i had to leave the conversation to limit the escalation of what you are calling “tone”.

And that “tone” has not been limited to this forum. It was present at the caucuses. It is present at local party training functions where Obama supporters either harangue or totally ignore Clinton supporters. It is present in the blogs you like to link to for reference.

it will be more than present at our local caucus on Saturday.

that a tone so nasty now will get increasingly nasty is no surprise.

Apparantly, you don’t bother actually reading my posts because had you done so you would realize that Clinton supporters are not the majority in the 34th district…

As for the next three primaries… you don’t know what will happen there any more than i do… although by your own posts you worry that Pennsylvania won’t be a rout for Obama.

You would be better off campaigning for your candidate than counting those horses before they run. This is not the foregone conclusion that you would have all of us believe.

Hillary supporters aren’t still standing up for her because they want to be heard. They are standing up for her because they think she is the right woman for the job.

that’s why this is still a viable race… you can call that a longshot if you want… but it doesn’t necessarily make it so.

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[JoB]

Walfredo..

i have to apologize..

apparently i didn’t read your post carefully enough in reference to the 34th district…

and i am really not sure what the 34thsidtrict is…

there was a fair amount of discussion last night about those who felt disenfranchised when Dean’s attempt to swing the party to the left failed during his campaign… and the subsequent anger at feeling unrepresented by what they see as a centrist approach.

The beauty of the Obama campaign is that by giving no clear message.. it dose appeal to those on all points of that spectrum.

Interesting points for discussion i would actually like to have some time.

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[charlabob]

So you’re saying that a lot of disaffected Dean “leftists” are now Clinton supporters? And they think Obama is a centrist and she is the inheritor of the Dean legacy???

There’s a song from the 60’s that sums up my opinion: “When will we ever learn?”

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[walfredo]

“The future’s here, we are it, we are own.” from the Dead song Throwing Stones

“We are the people we have been waiting for.” Obama

Kind of a similar theme- I like it better then who’s ready to answer the phone at 3 AM when the world is blowing up?

As Bill Clinton said recently (before this campaign of course) if it comes down to a choice between a candidate that makes you hope and think, and one that pushes your fears- it’s one of my rules of politics, that you better pick the candidate that makes you hope and think every time… (paraphrased)

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[JoB]

charlabob…

actually.. the way i understood what was said… it was that the dean supporters were in the Obama camp… not the Clinton camp.

since Clinton has always been identified with centerist viewpoints.. especially in this forum… i didn’t think i needed to clarify.

and walfredo..

Hillary does make me hope and dream.

it wouldn’t have mattered how she chose to distinguish herself from Obama.. the reaction would be the same…

you can’t support Obama without trashing her.. not even in one simple posting.

What does that tell you?

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[charlabob]

I give up — let me know what my script is in a “civilized” discussion and I’ll decide whether to read it.

I’m tired of being bombarded with irrelevant words, while legitimate issues are ignored.

For example: What about Clinton’s lies with regard to her support of NAFTA?

How do you justify Clinton’s apparent willingness to jettison the 1st amendment when odious speech is directed at her?

How do you explain the fact that the chief strategist of her campaign and the chief strategist of the McCain campaign are senior partners in the same K Street lobbying firm?

There are many more, but I would settle for direct answers to any of those.

Meantime, so long and thanks for the fish…

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[JoB]

charlabob…

“irrelevant words” ??????

it’s obvious that i have a lot more respect for you and your ideas than you do for mine. i didn’t call your words .. or ideas for that matter… irrelevant.

and.. forgive me if am wrong.. but i don’t think i accused you of uncivilized conversation in this conversation either.

i think the comments i directed at you stated that it had seemed obvious to me in context of all of the talk about Clinton’s centrist ideas that i didn’t have to explain that those who wanted to move towards more leftist ideas were in the Obama camp.

i simply corrected your assumption about what i actually said.

your response is getting just a touch personal.

and we both know that’s not part of actual conversation… where people trade ideas..

that’s trading insults… and people’s feelings get really hurt that way.

Charla.. had i directed the words at you that you just directed at me.. you would be livid.

As for legitimate issues being ignored… i have yet to fail to answer to any question that was presented to me.

Did you actually ask me a question with your shout?

The answer to a legitimate question about her position on nafta would be that i am afraid you will have to identify her “lies” for me… since my understanding of her position on nafta is that it desperately needs to be adjusted to reflect current reality.

which.. btw.. is not so far from Obama’s position.

This propensity to proclaim Hillary a liar is a game i am not willing to engage in.. because all it ends up in is traded insults…

that game is played this way…

SO WHAT ABOUT OBAMA’S LIES ABOUT……. When did he stop beating his wife anyway?

What a waste of everyone’s time and energy.

i could choose to play that game… i just don’t think it’s worthwhile. and since it is my time and energy that is being wasted by that kind of he said/she said.. score a point… crap.. i do get to make a judgment call about it.

i think i just did.

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[SA]

“SO WHAT ABOUT OBAMA’S LIES ABOUT……. When did he stop beating his wife anyway?”

He beat his wife? Reference?

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[charlabob]

Did you actually ask me a question with your shout?

Yes, in fact, I asked three. I’ve added one to this list — because I am intrepid.

She said she opposed NAFTA when it was talked about in the White House People who attended meetings with her, and the minutes of the meetings, said otherwise.

What about “I was under fire in Bosnia”? Most people would be embarrassed–she simply said, “I misspoke — and made a joke of it.” It might be funny if it weren’t a cornerstone of her vastly greater foreign policy experience.

I am angry at getting no answers and reading the same thing over and over. You obviously have the right to be equally “livid”. I don’t claim to tell people how to react or even what to say.

So I’m outta here.

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[beachdrivegirl]

I think that Charla is referring to the fact that although Clinton claims to have always opposed NAFTA she infact hosted a meeting as the First Lady supporting NAFTA and trying to get it passed. The only reason why she LIED saying that she never supported NAFTA was because she wanted to STEAL the Ohio Primary. That is wrong. (Details at link below.)

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=300860

Obama has never beat his wife.

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[Huindekmi]

JoB,

No offense, but YOU have set the tone in these threads. You attack attack and attack. When anyone fires back, you act like a self-appointed martyr.

You’ve almost driven me off this great blog. I drop by the forums less and less, and try to avoid the political topics that you’ve taken up.

You complain about civil discourse. Could you please try some yourself.

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[charlabob]

Thank you, BDG — you are right, but I didn’t have time to look up the reference again.

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[JoB]

SA…

“so when did he stop beating his wife anyway” is a reference to a style of argument

.. not a reference to obama beating his wife.

It was not meant as an offense to Obama.

I had no idea anyone would take it that way.

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[JoB]

huindekmi,

This is getting personal.

Is there some reason you think you have the right to insult me?

blaming me for defending myself from attacks is blaming the victim for the crime.

since the only thing i said in my posts before i was attacked is:

“so much for the “will of the people” slogan.

To those delegates, that appears to mean only the will of the people who support Obama… the rest of us don’t count… or at least they hope we won’t:)

The Obama delegates were definately willing to bypass the will of the people (the caucus participants Clinton delegates represent) if it would earn them more delegates in the final 45.

So are Clinton delegates.”

it appears that any mention of the Obama campaign is a threat and therefore opens me allegations of hostility.

You chose to read this thread which i started as a separate thread on purpose.

If you don’t want to read posts by me. then don’t read a thread i started.. because i am probably going to post on it.

And please stop insulting me. I believe personal insults are not consistent with the policy on this forum.

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[JoB]

charlabob..

this has to stop.

You are hurting my feelings.. deeply.

I can and will defend my political beliefs.. but i don’t think it is necessary to insult anyone in doing so.

the insults from you are particularly hurtful.

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[JoB]

beachrivegirl…

i would ask one question and that is this…

When Hillary said she was an opponent of NAFTA from the very beginning.. as she is quoted saying… was she talking about her role in the White House or was she taking about her role nearly 8 years later as a Senator from New York?

context does matter.

The position Hillary took in meetings during the formation of policy… and the position she took in light of the reality of how that policy worked out could well be two different things.

A question about her comment, it’s context and whether she still defends it would have added more weight to that article than calling her a liar without giving her any chance to defend herself.

An aside to that would be the comment that either she had experience in the White House and it counts as real experience that she can and should be held accountable for.. or she didn’t.

The anti-Clinton faction can’t play it both ways… as they currently do.

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[JenV]

I don’t generally engage in political discourse, I think that voting should be done in private and you should wash your hands afterwards…but I personally am hot for any democrat! the more we dems fight amongst ourselves, the better chance we have of 4 years of McCain. JoB and Charla, I have met you both and know you to be each passionate about your beliefs- and I also know you are not mean women. Neither of you are going to change the others minds. just because Hilary and Obama get to be nasty to each other doesn’t mean we as neighbors should follow suit.

I will personally get behind whichever democrat runs against McCain and I hope you all would join me! Stop and see the big picture.

Now, back in your corners. :)

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[beachdrivegirl]

Most would assume that when Hillary states that she was an oponent of NAFTA she was an oponent of NAFTA since the begining that she was referring to NAFTA and her “experience”. I have to disagree that the “context does matter” words are words and she should have clarified her position if it was not the case that she always opposed NAFTA.

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[JoB]

“What about “I was under fire in Bosnia”? Most people would be embarrassed–she simply said, “I misspoke — and made a joke of it.” It might be funny if it weren’t a cornerstone of her vastly greater foreign policy experience.”

I suppose none of you has ever remember an incident incorrectly and then embroidered on that incident for the sake of a good story?

That’s called embellishment.

she said she misspoke. That’s pretty clear and accurate. And then she laughed self consciously.

it’s probably pretty much what any of us would say if confronted by the difference between the story we were telling and the hard reality of the truth.

As for that incident being the cornerstone of her “greater foreign policy experience” ….

i think that is a line directly out of the press somewhere… because i have never seen that claim attributed to Hillary… and i don’t remember ever seeing it anywhere in her campaign literature.. or claimed by any of her staff.

It was a good story. Too bad it didn’t turn out to be true.

Her embellishment change the fact that there was some concern about the safety of that flight.

Nor does it make her a liar.

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[JoB]

“How do you explain the fact that the chief strategist of her campaign and the chief strategist of the McCain campaign are senior partners in the same K Street lobbying firm?”

Could it be that they both work for a living in the real world and their chosen occupations are politics.. and they happen to represent their clients well?

since i don’t know the personal or political history of either beyond that.. i would have to assume that they both got jobs because they are good at what they do.

as for their lobbying firm.. i haven’t looked to see exactly what the history of their lobbying tells us about the political beliefs of either partner.

have you?

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl…

Where quotes are concerned, it is not that simple. Not even when it “proves’ your point.

“words are words and she should have clarified her position”

my words… “When did he stop beating his wife anyway?” which were an allusion to a style of argument and not an accusation against Senator Obama were certainly taken out of context and mistunderstood.

And if that quote is your only reference, how do you know she didn’t clarify her position?

Context always matters.

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