Hot for Hillary

[JoB]

JenV…

How can those who vote in the privacy of the voting booth know what they are voting for if they only hear one side of an issue?

I have no problem with those who support the other candidate supporting their candidate.

what i have a problem with is the continual string of insults directed at my candidate and anyone who would support her.

I have a problem with citing the latest news article as the “truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth” as tho that were all there was to any story.

i very nearly just went further with what i have a problem with… but i won’t.

i think i am getting angry here.

i know my feelings are hurt that people would choose to insult me personally for doing nothing more than standing up for what i believe in.

i think i have said enough for now.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Hillary had been saying she had always been opposed to NAFTA.

Obama knew otherwise. Called her on it. And sent out a mailer.

Clinton got mad b/c the gap was closing in and he was going to win Ohio.

So what does she do??? She shames him and lies to the population of Ohio.

By lieing she gains enough delegates to stay in the race.

A few weeks later, documents are relesaed, that not only did she support NAFTA when Bill was in the White House, but she hosted parties, and referred to it in her book as one of Bills greatest successes.

Furthermore, her chief strategist Mark Penn currently heads a firm that is trying to push NAFTA into South America.

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[JenV]

directed at everyone: there is a fine line between standing up for what you believe in and shoving your beliefs down others throats.

JoB- you ask “How can those who vote in the privacy of the voting booth know what they are voting for if they only hear one side of an issue?”

Because I choose to be informed. I also have respect for peoples opinions and beliefs, and would not ever try to sway anyones opinion. Maybe politically naive of me, but that is who I am. you can tell me Hilary is the best until you are blue in the face. Charla can say the same about Obama. My mind and my will are strong enough to stand firm on my own beliefs.

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[andrea]

I’m with JenV on this one…can’t we all just get along? (pleeeease…)

Down with McCain!!

Up with whichever Democrat nominated to oppse him!

(crossing fingers for Hillary, but will run with Obama if the time comes…no party pooper’s here!)

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[JenV]

now I am pissed. I should have known better than to get involved in this.

no more!

I am off to enjoy happy hour and Friday night.

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[Kayleigh]

(hugs) to you, Jo. At least you haven’t been told that you are mean, rude, unsophisticated, and not worth meeting in person (all said about me, and probably more, but I stopped reading after those insults.)

If I were you (said in kind advice, not judgment), I’d stop posting about Hillary altogether. We don’t really need yet another Hillary vs. Obama thread/comment/slugfest that gets everybody nowhere but annoyed, yes?

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[JoB]

JenV..

who are you mad at? me?

i didn’t think i said anything that implied you weren’t smart enough to go find info and figure things out for yourself.

if you took anything i said that way.. i am truly sorry.

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[JoB]

It’s unfortunate that i am the only one standing up for Hillary on this forum…

I don’t do it because i think it is fun.

I do it because i think it is fair.

I do it because this is the democratic process.

I don’t think anyone is too stupid to figure this out on their own..

but i do think it is too easy to listen to only those who agree with you and never look beyond the surface of a story if it supports what you already believe.

I believe that it is always necessary to stand up and present the other side of the story even if that is the unpopular thing to do. and i truly can understand that doing that well can make me very unpopular..

I don’t dislike anyone because they hold differing opinions than mine. My entire family holds radically differing opinions than I. My husband often holds some differing opinions than I. Even my best friend holds differing political views.

I challenge what they say and think regularly even tho I like them and want to get along with them… because that leads to well thought out positions.

And i appreciate that they challenge me.. it makes me think.

What i don’t appreciate is the tendency to demonize anyone who holds differing opinions… to label them and insult them. To require the continual citing of references which themselves have to be defended for their validity…

To score points just to score points…

I try very hard not to do that… Sometimes that is hard to do.

I will challenge the hypocrisy of holding your opponent to a different standard than you hold your own candidate ….

and will call anyone on their own lack of consistency… as i expect to be called on mine.

but i try very hard to never call anyone a hypocrite or to call them a liar.

I try very hard never to call anyone stupid. Or to imply that their opinion doesn’t matter.

i try very hard to never be unkind.

I apologize if i have mistaken something someone else said.. or if i have either said something wrongly or simply said something wrong.

and most of all.. i try very hard never to make any kind of personal attack on any person who holds a different opinion than i do.. even when they defend it by attacking me.

And that’s sort of what i expect from others.

I don’t hold anyone to the absolute of any of those standards… as i certainly don’t expect myself to be able to always live up to them… but i do expect to try.

and i hope everyone else does too.

That may explain why i am so troubled by the bitterness in this campaign…

by the fact that it seems to be centered on a love/hate relationship with the Clintons.. or with Hillary herself.

Who is Obama? How can any of us know?

We are so busy either defending or attacking Hillary that the poor man just plain gets lost in the process.

if he is our candidate this fall.. who will we be promoting?

Obama must be more than “not hillary”.

This primary must be about more than “not hillary”.

But this conversation isn’t about more than “not hillary” and that deeply saddens me.

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[JoB]

kayleigh…

I am truly sorry any of those things were said about you.. but i don’t think i said them. did i?

I tried the not posting thing.. and it didn’t work for me.

Not posting simply meant that the Obama camp kept slapping one another on the back and linking to yet another Hillary is fighting a losing battle or Hillary lied or Hillary did this or Hillary did that article…

how about an alternate universe where i can actually support Hillary without being personally attacked?

How about an alternate universe where there is actually room for more than one good idea.. more than one opinion?

Isn’t this the world that Obama supporters say they want?

At least, that’s what Obama’s speech was all about.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Hillary is the one that started the fight and she set herself up.

Hopefully, JoB, you realzie I have never tried to personally attack you. I apologize if you feel otherwise, but I am truely just trying to support my Canidate.

Now onto, why support Obama? I think I have tried to cover this before, but I will start over.

First of all, I am an Independent. I dont feel I have to become married to a party. I would rather support the canidate I feel is the best fit for the job.

This time around, I feel that Obama is best for the job. First and farmost, I want the Bush/Clinton dynasty to be gone. One of the two families have been in the office since I was born and that is just wrong when we live in the USA.

Secondly, I support his stance on the issues. (Healthcare/Economics/Foreign Policy etc)

Third, I have more faith in him. He has a higher success rate with the bills he has written. He has a higher margin of suppor too. (Did you ever take the time to notice that Clinton could not get one sponsor for her bill relating to mortgages???)

And I can keep going if you like.

The most disappoiting thing for me over the course of this primary election is the fact that if Hillary had been on the ballet w/out the mess she has created, I would have voted for her come November. I did not come into this primary election as an anti-Clinton campainger; however, her negativity, inconsistencies with the truth, and her wanting to change the rules all the time have in fact completly disgusted me. And if it works it may have turned me away from the Democratic party forever.

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[beachdrivegirl]

Healthcare:

Both Obama and Clinton want to create helthcare for all. Both will require business owners to pay for their employees healthcare; difference is economics. Barack Obamas healthcare plan has an estimated cost of 50-65 billion while Hillary Clintons is estimated at 110 billion with the economy the way it is do we really want to spend that money????

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[walfredo]

There is no question, none, that whoever comes out of this process ahead in pledged delegates after the contests are over… If after this historic campaign, the person that wins- gets overturned by superdelegates- The democratic party will set itself back decades… Can you imagine if Hillary won the most pledged delegates, and the “supers” overturned it for Obama, just because he was cool- and brought a better opportunity to win house and senate seats? The first woman ever to win the nomination of a major party for the presidency and the “man” steps in and says, sorry- not this time, maybe in another 200 years? It would be a blunder of historic proportions, that would absolutely destroy the party for many years to come. On top of that, his ascension to the “selected” nominee couldn’t be completed until after a bitter delegate battle at the floor of the convention! That would be the worst possible decision any party could ever make… (well excempt maybe the reverse of it…)

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[walfredo]

There is no question, none, that whoever comes out of this process ahead in pledged delegates after the contests are over… If after this historic campaign, the person that wins- gets overturned by superdelegates- The democratic party will set itself back decades… Can you imagine if Hillary won the most pledged delegates, and the “supers” overturned it for Obama, just because he was cool- and brought a better opportunity to win house and senate seats? The first woman ever to win the nomination of a major party for the presidency and the “man” steps in and says, sorry- not this time, maybe in another 200 years? It would be a blunder of historic proportions, that would absolutely destroy the party for many years to come. On top of that, his ascension to the “selected” nominee couldn’t be completed until after a bitter delegate battle at the floor of the convention! That would be the worst possible decision any party could ever make… (well excempt maybe the reverse of it…)

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[JoB]

beachdrivegirl..

I can understand that you want a different face in the white house..

but there is no bush/clinton dynasty.

And i challenge you to identify the point where clinton “started the fight and she set herself up” … unless you mean she did so by the very act of running.

we could each go back and try to identify the first “dirty trick”…

turns out i think Obama actually has the record on that.

as for “her wanting to change the rules all the time”.. can you point to those rules she wanted to change?

the fact is that Obama has actively campaigned to get the “rules” changed…

Hillary hasn’t asked to change the rules but she has asked to find some compromise that would allow the voters of Michigan and Florida a voice.. any voice.

As for your liking his positions.. i can and do respect that.

i am not sure the lack of support for Hillary’s mtg disclosure law makes it a bad law though. you should read that one for yourself.

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[JoB]

walfreso..

been there done that.

Sorry you don’t like the system.

you haven’t yet separated the superdelgates into the good superdelegates and the bad superdelegates.. but i am sure that is coming.

i don’t hear you complaining about Kennedy and Kerry who are clearly not following the vote in their state.

and that’s why i am pretty sure the good delegate bad delegate thing is coming.. because they will clearly be the delegates with enough conscience to realize their state got it wrong ;->

Right? Wrong!

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[Kayleigh]

Jo, you weren’t one of ’em. If you hadn’t been kind to me, I probably wouldn’t even be reading here any more.

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[JoB]

Kayleigh..

it just goes to prove that two people can hold wildly differing political views and still be good people…

we are both good people…

and to tell you the truth.. you sort of saved my sorry you know what here today.

i was ready to turn this thing off myself and walk away permanently …

but we both know that’s only a short term solution to a long term problem.. and those are never good solutions.

LOL… at least walking away from WSB wouldn’t be fatal.. but it would be a loss nevertheless.

i nominate us to our own mutual appreciation society of two .. i know a few more who would willingly join us ;->

kayleigh.. did i say thank you? i surely meant to.

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[JoB]

charla..

i am not so impressed with that k street lobbying firm.

the last move was decidedly sleazy.

i can only guess that in regards to the Clinton campaign.. he was good at his job.

i wonder how she got him.

think i will go do some research.

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[Anonymous]

BDG, have you ever read FactCheck?

They are a *nonpartisan, nonprofit, consumer advocate for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics*.

They have examined the senate records of Clinton and Obama. I think it will be illuminating because some of the reasons for your Obama loyalty are not based in fact. Specifically see the chart comparing their record.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/substance_abuse.html

When you’re done, hit the home page b/c there is a lot of good info. Much in your favor, as well.

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[JoB]

ok..

i went looking for Mark Penn.. and i am not done… but i got a good start…

he is a pretty fascinating character.. and he.. along with Bill… is the real focus of the I hate Hillary fan club. No, he didn’t start it.. but he is certainly the real target of a lot of the hatred that spills over onto her.

I started at wickipedia… and then followed links.

Who is he? he is a pollster and lobbyist.. and he started with the Bill Clinton campaigns…

So.. she inherited him.

Mark Penn is the Karl Rove of democratic politics.. so says John Edwards

Jennifer Donahue repeats it later and you have the basis for the “Rove play book” comparisons in Hillary’s campaign.

I thought at first it was because when he was asked early in the campaigns .. on a program with representatives from the Obama and Edwards campaign whether the Clinton campaign was going to go after Obama’s admitted drug use as a teen.. he replied that they weren’t going to go after his cocaine use.. instead of saying drug use. (cocaine is one of the drugs that Obama admitted to in his book.) the Edwards rep jumped him for that and that started the Karl Rove allusions…

but it is more… as Edward then went after him for his lobbying firm’s connections to Blackwater among others.

I thought that was kind of funny because following the links i found that another of Penn’s lobbying employees was an advisor on the Kerry/Edwards campaign.

this is truly a tangled web.

here is the piece on the Edward’s attack..

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3694881&page=1..edwards

I think these other two links are related to what he does and where he does it…

one of them might be about his apology….

I should have added notes when i put the links on a clipboard:(

i got too interested in what i was reading…

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9390.html

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2008_03_30.php

I gave you the links so you could follow them yourself.

What i think so far…

this guy is definately one of Washington’s political players.

i think he isn’t so great for my candidate at this point since he obviously put his personal business interests above his obligations to her political campaign…

and maybe that is because he has paid too much attention to the polls and has decided he is on a sinking ship and is getting what he can while he can… i don’t know.

it is pretty obvious that other old Clinton enemies now feel safe going after them…

But i gotta ask the other question.. which is… if we are going up against Karl Rove in the fall..

and don’t kid yourself… we will be… he no longer has his candidate but he still has the same business interests to protect…

don’t we kind of want our own version of Karl Rove to combat him? …

whether it is for Hillary’s campaign or Obamas?

i may not like him. I may not respect that kind of insider dealing. But i have to admit he seems mostly good at what he does…

I just don’t know.

See what you think.

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[JoB]

ok.. words matter..

following the Mark Penn links, i stumbled across this..

i have already mentioned the media bias when it comes to the Clintons… both Clintons.

Here are two links to that info…

unfortunately, this is a little old.. through February.. and i don’t think current info is out yet.. tho i will be looking for it. It is worth noting that the period it covers includes her victories on super tuesday.

On the first, you can follow a bunch of links to what everyone thinks.. but i went straight to the center for media to get the numbers.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2008/03/most_media_obse.php

http://www.cmpa.com/election%20news%202_1_08.htm

The numbers are even worse when you look at the long term analysis.. They say bad press is better than no press.. that old name recognition thing.. but i have to wonder how long anyone’s reputation can stand up to that kind of negative imagery over the long haul.

Anyway, while i was on this same site.. i found something pretty interesting that is getting reported right now…

The story is that Harold Ickles (of the clinton campaign) is bringing up the Reverend Wright with superdelegates and using it as a reason that he is unelectable.

I didn’t think much of the story.. because i think burying our heads in the sand about this till fall is pretty lame… but…

There is a difference between what Harold Ickles actually said and what they reported… even a difference between what Harold Ickles said and what Talking Points put in their report of what people were saying…

What he said was that the subject of Reverend Wright’s connection to Obama often comes up when he is talking to superdelegates…

What they reported was that he is playing the “wright” card.. implying that he said he was bringing the subject up. And as the reporting continued.. all allusions to inuendos dropped and the story became that he said he was bringing up race with superdelegates.

Go look for yourself…

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/187010.php

it occurs to me that i linked directly to the video and you may have to actually go to today’s talking points to see the actual quote from Ickles…

Words do matter.

How they are quoted or misquoted matters.

Whether a story is given a positive or a negative spin matters.

Since this particular story was all over the FOX news network… directly misquoting Ickles.. should we assume that Obama has some tie to FOX because they are benefiting the Obama campaign spreading accusations about the Clinton campaign and it’s tactics?

Probably not.

But we should definately question what we think we know about the Clinton “dirty tricks” as most that reporting came from the same source.

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[JanS]

my problem with the “Karl Rove” thing, and having one on “our side” is the fact that they even have to exist. To me, it represents politics as usual, and I think that alot of Americans are just simply tired of that, and want it to stop. It’s a turn off to the process, and is probably one of the things that makes people just walk away from the whole thing, shaking their heads, saying “it doesn’t matter what I think, they still do the same things”..

just an opinion…

the rest of it? you’re all on your own :)

I like going to the McCain thread…come August, we’re gonna have to spend some time thinking about him, instead of each other…

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[JoB]

JenV..

i went back to my reply to you and see why you think i slapped you…

i didn’t make a clear break between what i said to you and what i just said.

i was not getting mad at you.. i was getting mad because i was thinking about what i don’t appreciate and the list got a little to hot for me to keep writing it…

I am so sorry i didn’t make a clear break there…

maybe i wasn’t thinking clearly because i was angry?

anyway, it isn’t cool and i apologize for what i now see i did… on top of the confused apology for what i thought i didn’t do.

if you can follow that, you are doing better than i…

no more research.. no more blog…

tonight.

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[JoB]

JanS

I caught your post before i left for the night.

You are right.. i would love for the Karl Rove style of political insiders not to exist..

but the truth is that Obama has one on his team too.. he just hasn’t been around as long and hasn’t gathered had as much evidence gathered against him…

and although he might be great at political strategy on a grounds up campaign.. i don’t know how he is when it comes to those big bad republican boys and their news media down campaign…

he has definately been good at manipulating the race issue.

i think we are naive to think that wishing things were different in Washington will change them.. or even that electing a president that says he is against them will change them…

i think we have been lucky lately to have them become so arrogant that we can finally see them pretty clearly.. and to have access to the internet and all that info…

I would rather have them out where i can see them than underground where i can’t…

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[JoB]

Who is Mark penn

from a publication that clearly doesn’t much like him in 2007…

this is pretty interesting stuff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/29/AR2007042901661.html

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[Author]

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